Ohio Teachers packing heat-- must have POTC

I didn't ignore it. I deemed it irrelevant. I appreciate your congenial outlook on stopping violent crime but you are limiting your imagination and the ability to adapt .... for what purpose I cannot see.

1). Crowds waiting outside. What crowds are you talking about?
2). Two starting times vs. staggered arrival times. So? Introduce staggered arrival times if you think it's important.
3). Ten-foot fences and eleven-foot ladders. This comment is your biggest crime. It says, "There is nothing we can do!" 😭

BY THE WAY: You are moving the goal post. We are talking about schools and I gave you an excellent reply. Now you want to talk about parking lots as if it's the same thing. It's not.
1. High schools in large US cities, Los Angeles included, serve over 4500 students each.
2. Staggered start times are impractical for schools because of bus schedules, parent drop-offs for more than one child, after school sports and clubs.
3. I'm not saying there is nothing we can do. I'm saying that metal detectors are the equivalent of a ten foot fence and therefore not a good solution.

I'm not moving the goal posts. Students have been shot and killed in cafeterias, libraries, parking lots, hallways and classrooms. Entire campuses need to be protected. As do movie theaters, churches, parks, outdoor concerts venues, shopping malls, beaches and any place else that people gather. Suggesting that someone with a semi-automatic weapon and a desire to slaughter would be thwarted by a metal detector is naive.

They'd just show up right before or right after school and spray the unsuspecting crowds entering or exiting the campus.

It would be a lot easier to reduce the means than try to eliminate every opportunity.
 

I can't even relate to this, but here it is for anyone interested.

Viewer discretion advised.

My opinion, a church is NO place for guns, period! :mad:

https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article238823983.html
I don't think you're very clear on what happened in that church.
The bad guy with the rifle shot two people, but was stopped by another church member who was armed. How many more do you think he would have killed if he wasn't stopped?
You are correct that a church is no place for guns.....in a perfect world with perfect people. But we don't live in a perfect world & some people are evil & must be stopped - as in this incident.
 
I don't think you're very clear on what happened in that church.
The bad guy with the rifle shot two people, but was stopped by another church member who was armed. How many more do you think he would have killed if he wasn't stopped?
You are correct that a church is no place for guns.....in a perfect world with perfect people. But we don't live in a perfect world & some people are evil & must be stopped - as in this incident.
Agree, a church is no place for guns, nor is a day care center, nor is a school, but as you say we live in very unpredictable times. Armageddon will soon rest upon us, and not in an easy chair.
 

I don't think you're very clear on what happened in that church.
The bad guy with the rifle shot two people, but was stopped by another church member who was armed. How many more do you think he would have killed if he wasn't stopped?
You are correct that a church is no place for guns.....in a perfect world with perfect people. But we don't live in a perfect world & some people are evil & must be stopped - as in this incident.
I'm all for stopping evil, just that a more proactive approach is needed to stop events like this.

Stopping them outside, prior to them making their way into the likes of churches and schools.

Having an armed guard or personnel in a church as present in the video, simply opens up additional opportunity for mass carnage. IMO it's poor planning and a poor system. A system needs to be put in place to halt attackers before they have a chance to get their foot in the door, not allow them inside to create and open up perfect conditions to turn a typical Sunday service into a shooting gallery.

No where near enough is being done to protect the public.
 
Dirty Harry was talking to his supervisor, Briggs (Hal Holbrook), about the system.

DH: "I hate the damn system Briggs, but until somebody comes along with some changes that make sense, I'll stick with it".
 
(As if a pandemic wasn’t enough), 2020 gun violence killed nearly 20,000 Americans. It was the most violent year in 2 decades. Still, violent crime in general dropped dramatically in the last 30 years. No one knows why, but numerous studies show that violence is way down in areas that have Community Intervention Programs (CIPs). Most people don’t know about these programs because when we talk about gun violence in America, the discussion immediately becomes about gun control. And talking about CIPs is highly uncomfortable. Talking about them will probably get you called racist. It will make you very unpopular, so most politicians avoid the subject entirely.

“The assault rifle ban and universal background checks will do little to decrease the bulk of shooting incidents: suicides and community violence.” That’s from The Guardian, and it turns out they were right.

CIPs don’t stop mass shootings. Though mass shootings get wall to wall media coverage, per The Guardian fewer than ‘between 1 and 3 percent of American gun homicide victims die in what we generally call ‘mass shootings.’”

Per Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, gun violence in America is driven largely by day-to-day shootings that occur in under-served communities of color.

And that’s the uncomfortable part. Interpersonal shootings mostly involve young men and teenagers of color shooting other young men and teenagers of color, particularly blacks. Black men constitute only 6% of the US population and account for more than 50% of all gun homicides each year (also per Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence). For young black men, the interpersonal murder rate is nearly 20 times the national average. But addressing Black-on-Black crime is considered racist. And NOT addressing it is racist. (Welcome to American political discourse.)

CIPs, aka Group Violence Intervention or Focused Deterrence, are groups comprised of respected community members, faith leaders, social service workers, researchers, and law enforcement. These groups are relatively small but they work because, for example, in Richmond, Calif., one of the most dangerous cities in the US, less than 30 individuals were responsible for 70% of the city’s gun crimes (in 2009). Richmond's rather small CIP members were able to contact these individuals directly and provide assistance, services, and counseling. Their goal is to teach offenders that if they stop the violence, the community will help them turn their lives around, and if not, then they’ll get harsh law enforcement attention at the request of the community.

A CIP in Boston earned the title “The Boston Miracle” in 1996 after Boston’s youth homicide rate fell by 63% due solely to work done by their CIP. But you probably never heard of it. If you did, you probably lived in Boston at the time.

The CIP in Stockton, Calif is credited for a 42% reduction in gun crime, Indianapolis, 34%, Lowell, Mass, 44%. It also worked in Chicago, Cincinnati, New Haven and New Orleans. In more than 1400 studies, CIPs had the strongest, most consistently effective anti-violence effects in America.

Many hospitals have similar programs, because when you’re lying in a hospital bed with a gang-related gunshot wound, you're probably rethinking your life choices.

Also notable is that CIPs save youth detention centers and jails $750K to $1.5 million annually. But the 2 barriers to implementing more CIPs is politics and money; thanks in large part to the media, communities have trust issues with law enforcement, and politicians are *uncomfortable* talking about the statistics, so money that could fund more CIPs goes to promoting gun control and school security instead.
 
A few years ago, I went on a tour of the White House, just before Xmas, to see the decorations. (It's something different every year.) Before we were let in, we were subjected to a much more thorough search than what happens at airport security.

After the metal detector part, we were individually "interviewed" as to whether we had any dangerous devices (including guns) on us, and then had to turn our pockets inside out, remove our coats, allow a thorough inspection of our purses, etc. I had the feeling that they really meant business. Those guards were not the amateurish looking types you sometimes see at the airports; they were tough looking, very serious, and really paying attention as to whom they allowed inside.

Unfortunately, they didn't have that level of security outside of the Capitol on Jan. 6. I think if they did, the riot could never have happened.

Could we justify that level of security at every school in the country? Probably not, but that's what it would take. We are dealing with a level of insanity that this country has never had to deal with before. Schools were always considered pretty safe places. Now, they no longer are.
 

Unfortunately, they didn't have that level of security outside of the Capitol on Jan. 6. I think if they did, the riot could never have happened.


Could we justify that level of security at every school in the country? Probably not, but that's what it would take. We are dealing with a level of insanity that this country has never had to deal with before. Schools were always considered pretty safe places. Now, they no longer are.
They did, though. But what happened was some senator or whatever went out a side door where a few protesters were hanging out, and they went in when he came out. And then he just walked away like nothing happened, which is weird if you ask me. Then those few protesters held the door open and yelled for the crowd, and they went in through there. Those few protesters were pushed back by a few security people, but once the crowd started pushing their way in, the security guys were basically overrun.
 
@Aunt Marg - The elected official who basically let the protesters come in got in trouble, but I think he just got a letter of reprimand. I don't know if he's going to be charged with anything. Maybe it wasn't actually illegal or a violation of some sort, idk.
It's a shock, Mur, to think security wasn't at the time run at a much higher level.
 
I'm all for stopping evil, just that a more proactive approach is needed to stop events like this.

Stopping them outside, prior to them making their way into the likes of churches and schools.

Having an armed guard or personnel in a church as present in the video, simply opens up additional opportunity for mass carnage. IMO it's poor planning and a poor system. A system needs to be put in place to halt attackers before they have a chance to get their foot in the door, not allow them inside to create and open up perfect conditions to turn a typical Sunday service into a shooting gallery.

No where near enough is being done to protect the public.
Yes, it would be wonderful if attackers could be stopped before they get into a building. It would also be wonderful if drunk drivers could be stopped before they drive. But neither are possible in the real world.
And I'm sure the other church goers were grateful that there were armed people in that church who limited the carnage.
 
Yes, it would be wonderful if attackers could be stopped before they get into a building. It would also be wonderful if drunk drivers could be stopped before they drive. But neither are possible in the real world.
And I'm sure the other church goers were grateful that there were armed people in that church who limited the carnage.
Some probably don't want to believe this, but I do....

 
Amend or repeal the 2nd. amendment. (y) 🌎
Or we could look to the original intention of the 2nd Amendment, which was a collective right of states to keep and bear arms for the purpose of a well regulated militia. It was not an individual right, as people believe today.

Our Founding Fathers were adamantly against having a standing federal army, but for security, they wanted to be able to quickly enable state militias to defend our country. Thus, they put the states' right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution as the 2nd Amendment.

It was only during the '70s that things changed, thanks mainly to the NRA transitioning from a gun safety organization to a political organization. The change culminated in 2008 with the District of Columbia vs. Heller Supreme Court decision that said some 200 years of interpreting the 2nd Amendment as a state's right was erroneous and that it was not a collective right but an individual right.
 
Or we could look to the original intention of the 2nd Amendment, which was a collective right of states to keep and bear arms for the purpose of a well regulated militia. It was not an individual right, as people believe today.

Our Founding Fathers were adamantly against having a standing federal army, but for security, they wanted to be able to quickly enable state militias to defend our country. Thus, they put the states' right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution as the 2nd Amendment.

It was only during the '70s that things changed, thanks mainly to the NRA transitioning from a gun safety organization to a political organization. The change culminated in 2008 with the District of Columbia vs. Heller Supreme Court decision that said some 200 years of interpreting the 2nd Amendment as a state's right was erroneous and that it was not a collective right but an individual right.
A militia comprised of armed citizens. Like, Minute Men.
 
The change culminated in 2008 with the District of Columbia vs. Heller Supreme Court decision that said some 200 years of interpreting the 2nd Amendment as a state's right was erroneous and that it was not a collective right but an individual right.
Actually, it was Chicago v. McDonald (2010), Heller was not an Incorporation ruling, it only applied to D.C.
 
They did, though. But what happened was some senator or whatever went out a side door where a few protesters were hanging out, and they went in when he came out. And then he just walked away like nothing happened, which is weird if you ask me. Then those few protesters held the door open and yelled for the crowd, and they went in through there. Those few protesters were pushed back by a few security people, but once the crowd started pushing their way in, the security guys were basically overrun.
That wasn't the January 6th capitol breach. That was at the Oregon capitol breach on Dec. 21st. It's hard to keep up on all the capitol breaches these days.
 
Actually, it was Chicago v. McDonald (2010), Heller was not an Incorporation ruling, it only applied to D.C.
Heller is the more well known case. Chicago v. McDonald (according to professor Wikipedia) cleared up the ambiguity in Heller and stated that gun ownership is an absolute right granted by God almighty! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! :ROFLMAO:
 
Heller is the more well known case. Chicago v. McDonald (according to professor Wikipedia) cleared up the ambiguity in Heller and stated that gun ownership is an absolute right granted by God almighty! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! :ROFLMAO:
Professor wicky is wacky. :)

To the general public, it clarified it, since most believed Heller then applied to the states as well, but even the S.C. stated it was not an Incorporation decision.
 
I'm all for stopping evil, just that a more proactive approach is needed to stop events like this.

Stopping them outside, prior to them making their way into the likes of churches and schools.

Having an armed guard or personnel in a church as present in the video, simply opens up additional opportunity for mass carnage. IMO it's poor planning and a poor system. A system needs to be put in place to halt attackers before they have a chance to get their foot in the door, not allow them inside to create and open up perfect conditions to turn a typical Sunday service into a shooting gallery.

No where near enough is being done to protect the public.
At my church we welcome the stranger at the door and invite them in. We don't pat them down to see whether they are armed because there is no need. We offer them a seat and refreshments and engage them in conversation.

We have no second amendment. Indeed we have no Bill of Rights. It's a wonder we all survive without such things, yet we do, relatively peaceably.

The day we need armed guards at the entrance of every school and church is the day I move to New Zealand.
 
Heller is the more well known case. Chicago v. McDonald (according to professor Wikipedia) cleared up the ambiguity in Heller and stated that gun ownership is an absolute right granted by God almighty! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! :ROFLMAO:
In the Kingdom of Peace and Justice there is no need for guns. Our task as Christians is to model Kingdom values as we work towards peace and justice on Earth.
 
Amend or repeal the 2nd. amendment. (y) 🌎

Or we could look to the original intention of the 2nd Amendment, which was a collective right of states to keep and bear arms for the purpose of a well regulated militia. It was not an individual right, as people believe today. ..........
OK. Let me then edit my response:

1). Amend the 2nd. amendment
2). Repeal the 2nd. amendment
3). Make English language comprehension mandatory in American schools.

Point 3 might be the remedy for curing all that ails the US. Having a common & workable language in which to communicate would, by sheer default, eliminate most of the disagreements Americans have with one another. It would be less likely necessary to pull out their pop guns if they understood the other person's point of view. Remove slang and cliches and teach your countrymen how to improve their vocabulary instead and maybe - just maybe - they will discover that you are right about "the original intention of the 2nd Amendment". Who knows?
 
....... It would be a lot easier to reduce the means than try to eliminate every opportunity.
No one from my side of the fence is against that. But we are talking about schools and how to make them safer today. We are not talking about parking lots or fences & ladders. Manned metal detectors can be set up and operating by next week and all of the little details that you see are "in the way" can be ironed out by next month. By the time kids return to school after summer break there won't be another school shooting at all.

Next problem!
 
No one from my side of the fence is against that. But we are talking about schools and how to make them safer today. We are not talking about parking lots or fences & ladders. Manned metal detectors can be set up and operating by next week and all of the little details that you see are "in the way" can be ironed out by next month. By the time kids return to school after summer break there won't be another school shooting at all.

Next problem!
This simply isn't possible. One week to install metal detectors in every school in the country? Where would those all come from? Even if they were already warehoused, shipping and installation takes more than a week. This isn't even discussing that hiring people to work in this scenario would take much longer than a week.

If possible, it would reduce the number of school shootings, but extremely doubtful they would magically disappear.

I'm not trying to nitpick or too add fuel to an argument here, but simplistic black & white thinking has serious drawbacks and this is a serious subject.

Securing the school and student safety is an important part, but so is trying to abate the root causes of this behavior-- which I believe is a much more difficult subject.
 


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