Non citizens voting !?

After the 2000 election I remember a joke I heard in Switzerland, something to the effect that selection of a US president was too important to be left to US voters... Sounds like it is no longer a joke to some.

I think illegals need to be treated humanely, but of at least as importantly we need to figure out how to solve our illegal problem. Ending illegal migration would eliminate the need to worry about how we treat illegals.

I think it will probably take some form of amnesty and liberalization of laws concerning people who are already here, are law abiding, self-supporting, and add to our economy, coupled with enforceable removal of the rest. That will only work if we figure out a way to disincentivize illegal status, make hiring illegals impossible, removal fast and effective, and once a person has been found here illegally remove their future right to come here legally.

I believe future legal immigration should be greatly limited, we do not need more people. However there are good economic reasons for some immigration, getting the world's best and brightest minds has always benefited us, I think we need to find a way to continue that. But chain immigration, lotteries etc makes no sense to me. Perhaps a way to provide legal work status without a path to citizenship would make some sense as well. I also see no reason that a baby born to non-US citizens should automatically become a citizen.

Anyway enough ranting and raving, not much I can do about all this but complain I guess.
 

Remy said:
Seriously, this is a no. My mother was an immigrant. She got here the easy old fashioned way. Married an American GI.
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Same here....I met and married my wife while I was stationed in Germany.....57 years ago. When we arrived back in the US, she began a serious attempt to learn English, then studied for citizenship, and within a couple of years, she passed the tests.

IMO, anyone who wants to enter the US....or migrate to another nation...should make every attempt to assimilate into their new society, legally.

The way things are going, California may have to change it's name to Mexifornia in another couple of decades.
 
Calm down, folks. The fact that the NY Times published a crackpot "Guest Essay" does not mean that the ideas in that essay are endorsed or in any way represent the thinking of the NY Times, the Democratic Party, or (gasp!) the liberals in America.

These op-ed columns are often controversial, nutty, sometimes outrageous. Many of them represent the extreme right-wing fringe as well. They are in there to stir up the readers and get responses, and the best response to them is just say "OooooKaaaaay" and ignore them.

And Don, the essay did say non-citizens living legally in the U.S., not illegally. Read it again.
 
Don M. said:
California may have to change it's name to Mexifornia in another couple of decades
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LOL, I get your idea, I think the US works best as a cohesive society, speaking English is an important part of that. Not that I don't appreciate the Mexican-American culture and the importance of it to our history, I do.

As for speaking English, being bilingual is good, wish I could speak more Spanish, and with a Mexican accent would be fine. I think more of us should be multi-lingual and Spanish is probably the best second language for most of us. For Mexican-Americans I think speaking English is important, it helps them get the most out of living here. It also helps with our cohesiveness. I believe all US citizens should speak English. I like Mexican accented English, pleasant for me to listen to. Being from the US South I prefer it to say a New York accent, LOL.

On the name, California is a Spanish name (https://www.kcet.org/shows/departures/california-calafia-khalif-the-origin-of-the-name-california ) one that was given to the area by the Mexicans (or their predecessors anyway), when California was part of Mexico. Just one example of how Mexican culture has contributed to what we are today.
 
CAKCy said:
The irony is that immigrants (documented and/or undocumented) do not enter the country to get employed by the low income people. They enter to work (as cheap labor) for wealthy people who then go on TV to complain about the "immigration problem"...

Go figure...
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I believe you are right, and these folks are an important part of our economy, we need the labor.

The solution I can see to this is to have some kind of temporary work visa. One that clearly is not a path to citizenship and does not allow children born to the visa holders to be automatic citizens. This would protect the workers, they would no longer have to hide from ICE or law enforcement, they would be legal, with all the rights and responsibilities that go with it. By barring anyone found here illegally, or otherwise violating our laws, from ever being able to get such a visa you could reduce the incentive to be working here illegally. At the same time by making the visa relatively easy to get I think things would work a lot better.

I also think this could help the countries these people are coming from. Having a safe stable source of income would be of great benefit. A lot of these illegals are the best and the brightest from their home countries, right now these people are mostly lost to them...

Oh well, no one in Washington much cares what I think...
 
Alligatorob said:
I believe you are right, and these folks are an important part of our economy, we need the labor.

The solution I can see to this is to have some kind of temporary work visa. One that clearly is not a path to citizenship and does not allow children born to the visa holders to be automatic citizens. This would protect the workers, they would no longer have to hide from ICE or law enforcement, they would be legal, with all the rights and responsibilities that go with it. By barring anyone found here illegally, or otherwise violating our laws, from ever being able to get such a visa you could reduce the incentive to be working here illegally. At the same time by making the visa relatively easy to get I think things would work a lot better.

I also think this could help the countries these people are coming from. Having a safe stable source of income would be of great benefit. A lot of these illegals are the best and the brightest from their home countries, right now these people are mostly lost to them...

Oh well, no one in Washington much cares what I think...
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The suggestion is good. The problem, though, is that undocumented immigrants' labor is a lot cheaper (if they get paid at all) than the documented ones. Many employers, including famous/infamous ones, prefer undocumented immigrants for exactly this reason.
 
CAKCy said:
The suggestion is good. The problem, though, is that undocumented immigrants' labor is a lot cheaper (if they get paid at all) than the documented ones. Many employers, including famous/infamous ones, prefer undocumented immigrants for exactly this reason.
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You are right, and I believe we need to end this practice, even if it means higher labor costs. People need to be paid! The real cost to our economy would likely be less once you figure in the cost of dealing with all the illegals.

One thing I should have added is that I believe the legal work visas should be for a limited time, requiring return to the country of origin periodically. Renewals should be made possible, but only with this requirement. We do not want to develop a permanent class of non-citizens living and working in the country. Not good for us, nor for the people getting the visas.

The problem with all of this is making sure it is enforceable, without enforceability it will not work. We have proven that over and over again!!
 
Don M. said:
IMO, illegals should be given basic food, housing, and emergency medical care WHILE they await deportation. If they want to enter the US, they need to do so via a Green Card...
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According to what I read, there are two main reasons why South of the Border illegals don't enter the US legally and follow the necessary procedures:
  • The process can take up to 10 years to get accepted into the US
  • Many of them will be rejected anyway as unsuitable
 
Time Waits 4 No Man said:
According to what I read, there are two main reasons why South of the Border illegals don't enter the US legally and follow the necessary procedures:
  • The process can take up to 10 years to get accepted into the US
  • Many of them will be rejected anyway as unsuitable
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Yes, I think that is right, only thing that it leaves out is the expectation of a job or other income greater than they could get at home.

If we could eliminate the prospect of illegal employment then illegal immigration would plummet.
 
Sunny said:
Calm down, folks. The fact that the NY Times published a crackpot "Guest Essay" does not mean that the ideas in that essay are endorsed or in any way represent the thinking of the NY Times, the Democratic Party, or (gasp!) the liberals in America.

These op-ed columns are often controversial, nutty, sometimes outrageous. Many of them represent the extreme right-wing fringe as well. They are in there to stir up the readers and get responses, and the best response to them is just say "OooooKaaaaay" and ignore them.

And Don, the essay did say non-citizens living legally in the U.S., not illegally. Read it again.
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The New York Times has made blunders that had to be retracted in their regular news the past few years. They also recent engaged in blatant stealth editing to sensationalize the death of M'khai Bryant. They've tanked to the point that I fact check anything that comes from the NYT.
 
This is just pure lunacy. Why would the NYT even print something like this? It just goes to show you, never believe everything that you read.
 
rgp said:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/new-york-times-guest-citizens-right-vote

What are these people thinking ?? .......... Smoking ?
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The U.S. has a long history allowing non-citizens to vote:

  • "Noncitizen voting was the norm until the 1920s in the US and it is currently being successfully implemented in many cities and countries.
"Allowing noncitizens to vote is not a new endeavor in the United States. As mentioned above, up until the 1920s, voting rights in numerous states were based on residential status rather than citizenship. Currently, several cities in Maryland allow for noncitizen voting in city-wide elections, and Chicago has permitted noncitizens to vote in school board elections since 1988. These US efforts have proceeded without major problems, as have many on the international stage. Voting rights based on one’s residential status, as opposed to citizenship, are common in the international context and the US’s own history."

https://bppj.berkeley.edu/2019/03/0...oncitizen-voting-rights-in-the-united-states/

This is a good article on the subject: https://ballotpedia.org/Laws_permitting_noncitizens_to_vote_in_the_United_States . It contains a link which addresses the pros and cons:

https://ballotpedia.org/Arguments_f...ting_noncitizens_to_vote_in_the_United_States (For some reason clickable link can't be created; copy and paste works.)
 
We've been retired for a few years and were in the food manufacturing business. The best employees we had, the most stable and reliable and all round "nice" and eager to please ones were the Central American immigrants. One was head of our production dept. They studied together sometimes, became citizens and were so proud of being Americans. Our head production gal adopted a teen orphan and her natural child - a girl - went on to become a Texas primary physician.

I would give one a step up the ladder any time. We most all have immigrant blood running through our veins,
 
Been There said:
This is just pure lunacy. Why would the NYT even print something like this? It just goes to show you, never believe everything that you read.
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While there is nothing wrong (in fact it is so right) to be skeptical, your approach of never believing is the same as believing everything.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
The U.S. has a long history allowing non-citizens to vote
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Good post, and very interesting.

However I don't think this is a good idea. I would not support giving non-citizens the vote, even if it has been done in the past and still is in places.
Liberty said:
We most all have immigrant blood running through our veins,
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I believe we all do. "Native" Americans came from Asia, long before my ancestors did from Europe but all human inhabitants of the Americas are descended from immigrants.

A good reason, I believe, for us to be sympatric to newer immigrants. Their civil rights should be respected, and our treatment of them should be as humane as possible. However, I do not believe this should enter into consideration when setting our immigration policies, such as who and how many people get in. Times have changed...
 
The idea makes me feel very uneasy but the fact is that many undocumented immigrants work harder and pay more taxes to keep this country running than I do. IMO taxpayers should have a say in how things are done.

We need to find a compromise to this mess once and for all instead of kicking the can down the road from one administration to another.
 
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We should ban all Americans from voting in our elections and replace their votes with those of people in communist countries. After all they have never had the chance to vote.
 

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