JimBob1952
Senior Member
A two-state solution with an independent Palestine -- backed up with massive amounts of capital and aid to kick-start the Palestinian economy -- seems like a good approach. Don't know why that doesn't move forward.
What Do Real Muslims Believe?
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A two-state solution with an independent Palestine -- backed up with massive amounts of capital and aid to kick-start the Palestinian economy -- seems like a good approach. Don't know why that doesn't move forward.
JimBob1952
Senior Member
I would point out that the two-state solution has been proposed a number of times, and the Palestinians have always rejected it. They have always sought the elimination of Israel and the restoration of "historic Palestine."
Alligatorob
SF VIP
That could be, but only if it is supported by both sides. And even if it was accepted in general there are a lot of thorny details to work out.
Trying to get back to the original idea of this thread it would help to remember that Muslim - Jewish relationships have not always been this bad. As mentioned by others here there have been times in history that the Muslims have offered sanctuary to the Jews, protecting them from Christians. Such as during the Inquisition. It would be in the best interest of us all to find a way back to that more peaceful coexistence
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
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Agree completely with this post.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
The answer is easy: a One State solution. Force Israel to become a democracy. Had this been done 50+ years ago as so many peace activists like me had suggested the majority of its population would be Muslim who would have imposed democratic reform. This would have made it a more peaceful society in that country and through much of the region.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
This is an attractive idea, and could work, but it has its own complications.
Where would the boundaries be drawn? Would it include all of the territory currently occupied or controlled by Israel? What about the Gaza strip? Would Palestinians who left have the right to return?
Forcing Israel to do anything would not be easy, and who would the forcing?
Two State. I spit on what you say above. Israel is a Jewish state. Period. They are absolutely wrong the way they deal with the Palestinians, and I'll spit on that too. Israel is already a democracy. If you're going around trying to force people, do it for a two state. Otherwise.................I remember the ones like you 50 years ago and now. Jews have been forced throughout history. No more, and Never Again. I wonder........................no, never mind, better not ask.
JimBob1952
Senior Member
Hilarious. Which Arab "democracy" should One State Palestine emulate? Egypt? Syria? Saudi Arabia? There's always non-Arab Iran. And they're all so...peaceful. And so great when it comes to women's rights.
Even Jordan only gets a 37/100 on the Freedom House index. From their report:
"Jordan is a monarchy in which the king plays a dominant role in politics and governance. The parliament’s lower house is elected, but the electoral system puts the opposition at a disadvantage, and the chamber wields little power in practice. The media and civil society groups are hampered by restrictive laws and government pressure. The judicial system lacks independence and often fails to ensure due process."
Israel gets a 76/100 by the way.
Warrigal
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- Sydney, Australia
I used to despair at the troubles in Northern Ireland. I thought they would never be resolved. The British troops only seemed to make matters worse and religious differences were used to fan the flames.
Then people of goodwill on both sides started coming together to seek common ground in the interest of peace. It began with women who were fed up with violence and who feared for their children. Eventually a fragile peace was established, the troops pulled out and people learnt to get on with each other.
Perhaps the answer to the Israeli Palestinian conflict lies in the hearts of the mothers?
Just a thought.
Then people of goodwill on both sides started coming together to seek common ground in the interest of peace. It began with women who were fed up with violence and who feared for their children. Eventually a fragile peace was established, the troops pulled out and people learnt to get on with each other.
Perhaps the answer to the Israeli Palestinian conflict lies in the hearts of the mothers?
Just a thought.
Knight
Well-known Member
Posts about the content of the Bible & Quran and how some use that content to cause death or harm others is sprinkled thru out. Radicals, extremists are words used to describe those that take the content literally.
Atheists' are not mentioned at all as being radicals or extremists detrimental to the human race.
But this is about Muslims not Islam.
Misuses of Islam and Muslim
Islam : grammatically speaking, Islam should only refer to the religion or acts done in the name of that religion, never a person who practices that religion. Islamic community and Islamic art are correct, Islamic man is not.
Muslim should be used to describe all people of the Islamic faith but not the faith itself. You may say that you are interested in the religion of Muslims, but never in the Muslim religion.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-muslim/
Atheists' are not mentioned at all as being radicals or extremists detrimental to the human race.
But this is about Muslims not Islam.
Misuses of Islam and Muslim
Islam : grammatically speaking, Islam should only refer to the religion or acts done in the name of that religion, never a person who practices that religion. Islamic community and Islamic art are correct, Islamic man is not.
Muslim should be used to describe all people of the Islamic faith but not the faith itself. You may say that you are interested in the religion of Muslims, but never in the Muslim religion.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-muslim/
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Stalin, Mao, what's his name in North Korea...
No one religion or lack there of has a monopoly on evil. All are capable. Religion is not really the basis of most evil, just an often used crutch of the perpetrators...
JimBob1952
Senior Member
I think there have been some grassroots peace efforts among Israelis and Palestinians, but to what extent I'm not sure.
One thing a couple from Northern Ireland once told me is that the rate of violence went down as the rate of Protestant/Catholic intermarriage increased.
One thing is for sure, the extremists on both sides don't represent what most people really want, which is a peaceful solution.
CAKCy
Member
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- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
RadishRose
SF VIP
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- Connecticut, USA
Rocketman?
Devi
Well-known Member
- Location
- East WA USA
Kim Jong-un.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
I hope its happening. Probably the only way to work this problem out.
senior chef
Senior Member
Yes, I had the same problem. I told them to NOT knock on my door any more and wake me up. Finally, in frustration I answered the door stark naked. No more problem. They never again knocked on my door.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
When I was young we had a lovely Egyptian lady living next door. She was quite sophisticated compared to us Aussies. Mum came in laughing one day when she learned that a young missionary man came knocking on her door and tried to interest her in his brand of religion. Apparently she offered to take him inside and turn his collar round.
He fled and never returned.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
How's Israel "democracy" working out now for Palestinians and the many Christians who were exiled:
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that Nobody is Talking About - CounterPunch.org
''there is near consensus that the number of Christian inhabitants of Palestine has dropped by nearly ten-fold in the last 70 years ... 70 years ago, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, was 86 percent Christian ... The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is obvious to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim population alike ... “the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians,” who are finding themselves in “a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves”.
Many in the USA condemn the Taliban for similar actions but applaud it in Israel. Very ironic, indeed.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Can't fully say. But you will recall that the UN had no trouble with compelling Iraq to recede back into its borders in 1991. Nor did it have any trouble in compelling the Apartheid regime in RSA to reform its government. As you say it would be interesting to see how many Palestinians would come back and how many of the 500,000 Christians who were exiled to do the same. One can only speculate, I suppose.
Wow. This almost sounds like black people living in the USA. Do you propose sending in the U.N. here as well? We might need to be forced out of it.
Christian anti-semitism over thousands of years, culminating in nazism has caused these problems. Pay up. Everybody retreat back to where you're from. Everybody. Or is it just Jews that interest you? For one of the tiniest populations on earth, we sure get more than our share of attention.
WE ARE ALL OFF-TOPIC. Can we return please? Is it possible to get Jews off your mind?
senior chef
Senior Member
We can not even begin to compare the actions of Israel with that of the Taliban. Take women's rights for example. No Israeli could ever FORCE a woman into marriage. No Israeli beats a woman, (a total stranger) for wearing or not wearing certain clothing. No Israeli stones to death a woman for alleged marital infidelity. In Israel, a woman has the right to go about the town/city without a male relative companion. In Israel, a woman has the right to education. In Israel a woman has the right to pursue a career. In Israel a woman has the right to hold her own passport. The list goes on and on. Need I say more ?
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oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Commentators today do not dare compare Israel to the Taliban. However they have compared them to Nazis:
ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 1948 LETTER to the NEW YORK TIMES
COMPARING ISRAELI POLITICIANS TO THE NAZIS.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/55028b92112...D78C7FDC029A29AE3&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
On December 2, 1948 Albert Einstein was one of the signers of an open letter to the New York Times,1 comparing the politicians of Israel to the Nazis. The letter was a warning to the American public and to the people of the world of the true intentions of the new "Freedom Party". Supporting the present Prime Minister Menachem Begin was like supporting the Nazis. The following is the letter signed by Einstein and other prominent Jews:
"TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and the following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
"The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
"Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
"The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Enclosed with the letter was a clipping from the New York Times of the article on the village oF Deir Yassin, which reads as follows:
"A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war,, and had even
fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants "240 men, women and children" and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin."
"The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
"Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
"During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population.
"The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
"The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.
"In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
"The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
(signed)
"ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. ORLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGER, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SCHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. ZNGER, IRMA WOLPE, STEFAN WOLPE"
^ All great Jewish scholars and social reformers.
But they are hardly alone:
Google for their views on Israel's daily conduct. They even pray for that state's dissolution in compliance with biblical law.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Being Jewish myself it's a bit difficult to stop thinking about the subject. Am about to take my daily constitutional and, as usual, will wear my FREE PALESTINE wristband and Menorah medallion. Both very comforting to have.
As for sending the UN to stop anti black government violence, hey, not a bad idea since the USA does so overseas to stop what it considers unnecessary evils overseas. What's good for the goose being good for the gander.
I know you are Jewish @oldiebutgoody. I can Always Tell. Now, let's stop dissing @OneEyedDiva and go back to HER topic. Thank you.
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