What Do Real Muslims Believe?

[oldman]

Understood. Nevertheless it disturbs me deeply to have just learned that Muslims can remain true to the Quran while denying wide swaths of humanity (meaning people who aren't "of the books") from having rights or being treated equally and justly. More than 1/2 of the world's population wouldn't qualify.

@OneEyedDiva, I respect and like you, and get that you and your friends may not follow this pattern, but the very fact that Islam states it is enough to make me very wary of that religion.

Far warier than I was before reading this thread, to be honest. Indeed, it makes me very, very nervous.

It’s funny that you say this. While flying before 9/11, I was always kind of suspicious of mid easterners when any mid easterners came onboard. Remember, mid easterners were involved in other airplane incidents prior to 9/11. Two that come to mind immediately are Air India in the early 80’s and also a Pan Am flight 103 over Scotland. (Lockerbie)

I don’t normally stereotype people, but for whatever reason, I think it’s somewhat accepted for many Americans to be vigilant when they see mid easterners getting on their plane. Is it stereotyping or just being careful?

 

[oldman]

If one reads the Old Testament, it contains some truly horrific passages about what is lawful treatment of those who are not Jews. Fortunately, times have changed, somewhat, although Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli

Muslims. Sadly, some extremist Christians, who also follow these biblical tenets, have committed atrocities on those, Christian, or otherwise, who did not subscribe to their narrow views. Other religions are not exempt from this

behaviour. Check out the extreme right wing religious viewpoint of the ruling Hindu party in India. They are very discriminatory towards Christians and Muslims. Imho, the fault lies with the people. Haters gonna hate.

If you are talking about people like Koresh in Waco and Lundgren in Ohio, I agree. I would imagine all or most religions have their share of ideological people who misinterpret passages in the Bible, or maybe apply their own interpretation to the passages.

 

[StarSong]

Since this thread was focused on Muslims and my conversation with Diva was regarding something in the Quran, that's where I was confining my remarks.

There's no question that Christians of every sect have also proven themselves to be horrifically bloodthirsty and untrustworthy. I believe religions are created by humans to provide power to a few, control the masses' behaviors, and shield men (mostly men) from being held responsible for unconscionable acts.

All major religions scare me. Messages of peace, love, gentleness and charity get bastardized by those with big enough swords, guns and missiles to get their way, or enough charisma to sway the masses and pick their pockets.

 

[feywon]

What color is the background of the screen you’re reading this on? White? Yeah, I thought so!
Even electronics are racist!

Ah, but the letters are are most likely black!

 

[Alligatorob]

Is it stereotyping or just being careful?

I think its both. Natural for us to worry about people who look a bit like the people who tend to hijack planes. I might do the same. Its just human nature.

However we need to understand rationally that such an event is extremely unlikely, probably less likely than dying in a car wreck on the way to the airport. And be careful not to let our instinctive reactions lead us to do irrational things, like discriminate against someone. Our instincts evolved in a very different world. A place where anyone we did not know was a threat and needed to be avoided or even killed. Overcoming instincts like that is what allowed for development of civilization. Shouldn't reverse that process!

 

[Aneeda72]

...you've had people at your door screaming that you're going to hell? "People"?...as in plural? Are you provoking these people? I mean, no offense, but that's never happened to me, ever, nor have I ever known anyone where screaming and damning is going on....on their doorstep. I'd call 911. Extremists are scary in this day and age.

Yeah, I’ve never had that either and I get plenty of LDS and Jehovah Witnesses. I actually don’t know any others that come to the door.

 

[Aneeda72]

Understood. Nevertheless it disturbs me deeply to have just learned that Muslims can remain true to the Quran while denying wide swaths of humanity (meaning people who aren't "of the books") from having rights or being treated equally and justly. More than 1/2 of the world's population wouldn't qualify.

@OneEyedDiva, I respect and like you, and get that you and your friends may not follow this pattern, but the very fact that Islam states it is enough to make me very wary of that religion.

Far warier than I was before reading this thread, to be honest. Indeed, it makes me very, very nervous.

Well, I am very very nervous of head hunters in the Amazon, yes there are still some, although I don’t know what God they worship. There is always someone to be nervous about despite their religious beliefs.

There was just a shooting at a high school in North Carolina.

 

[Aneeda72]

I think its both. Natural for us to worry about people who look a bit like the people who tend to hijack planes. I might do the same. Its just human nature.

However we need to understand rationally that such an event is extremely unlikely, probably less likely than dying in a car wreck on the way to the airport. And be careful not to let our instinctive reactions lead us to do irrational things, like discriminate against someone. Our instincts evolved in a very different world. A place where anyone we did not know was a threat and needed to be avoided or even killed. Overcoming instincts like that is what allowed for development of civilization. Shouldn't reverse that process!

Hmm, lots of white christian people have hijacked planes so not sure what you mean.

 

[Aneeda72]

It’s funny that you say this. While flying before 9/11, I was always kind of suspicious of mid easterners when any mid easterners came onboard. Remember, mid easterners were involved in other airplane incidents prior to 9/11. Two that come to mind immediately are Air India in the early 80’s and also a Pan Am flight 103 over Scotland. (Lockerbie)

I don’t normally stereotype people, but for whatever reason, I think it’s somewhat accepted for many Americans to be vigilant when they see mid easterners getting on their plane. Is it stereotyping or just being careful?

Stereotyping for sure

 

[Pinky]

We've had Jehovah Witnesses who told us we're going to Hell to burn for eternity. I worked with a young woman who used to do the same. She was warned many times, not to push religion at work. Telling the JW's that we were Buddhist, got rid of them fairly quickly.

 

[JimBob1952]

If one reads the Old Testament, it contains some truly horrific passages about what is lawful treatment of those who are not Jews. Fortunately, times have changed, somewhat, although Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli

Muslims. Sadly, some extremist Christians, who also follow these biblical tenets, have committed atrocities on those, Christian, or otherwise, who did not subscribe to their narrow views. Other religions are not exempt from this

behaviour. Check out the extreme right wing religious viewpoint of the ruling Hindu party in India. They are very discriminatory towards Christians and Muslims. Imho, the fault lies with the people. Haters gonna hate.

I strongly dispute your statement that "Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli Muslims." Israeli Jews have certain rights (like the right of return) denied Israeli Muslims. But millions of Muslim women have no rights at all. And millions more Muslims live in cruel theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Aneeda72]

I could not find anywhere that broke down hijacking of planes by religion or even race. Maybe someone else can. I did find that the golden age of hijacking, in the USA, was from May 1961 to the end of 1972.

There were 159 hijackings.

A lot of these were done by Cubans who wanted to return to Cuba according to what I read. Guess one boat ride across the ocean was enough.

 

[Forerunner]

I saw a couple of comments on a thread that sadly was closed because more discussion is needed on the topic of Muslims and spreading love. @mellowyellow said "people who follow Islam scare her to death". That's sad! I wonder why? @senior chef theorized about an insane percentage of Muslims who are terrorists based upon what.....???

First of all, let me say that Muslims who join these terrorist organizations are IMO on the same level as those who join the KKK and used racial hatred to kill innocent Blacks and Jews. Islam DOES NOT condone their actions. Suicide is a big sin in Islam, thus suicide bombers are creating the ultimate sins by 1. Killing themselves 2. Killing/harming innocents and 3. Lying on God (by claiming these acts in His name).

Real Muslims believe that no one race is better than another. We believe that all God's people (people of the books) have rights and should be treated equally and justly. I once heard a Christian woman on the news say something about "whatever God they believe in". I thought to myself, that fool doesn't even know we believe in the same God that the Bible says created heaven and Earth. She sounded mighty ignorant...I guess the name Allah threw her off. She was too dumb to know that Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, just as Dios is Spanish for God. I know Imams (Muslims ministers) who teach from the Bible as well as the Quran and some know the Bible better than Christians do. I was raised Christian before I accepted Islam at age 45, so I know this to be true. The Quran contains Surahs (chapters) that mention Jesus and Mary.

Islamophobia has spread so widely because people take the worst of what they see so called Muslims do and judge all Muslims by those things. I'm so glad I don't judge all White people by the acts of the KKK and other racists. BTW, earlier this year domestic terrorists (among them White Supremacists) were named by U.S. intelligence as one of the biggest threats we face in this country. I'm also glad I don't judge all Christians by the bad apples in the bunch. Many horrible things have been done in the name of Christianty!
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/22/us-domestic-extremism-security-threat-9-11-capitol-assault/
@Pecos @feywon

I have a friend who is a devout Sunni Muslim. He is a decent, honorable, respectable, hard-working man who is a great guy to go fishing with. In 8 years of knowing that I was a follower of Jesus, the only time he did anything towards converting me was when he saw me struggling with my faith. He offered me his faith, I said no thank you, and that was it. He was concerned about me.
For the vast majority of all of us, we just want to raise our families in peace. I'm not afraid of Muslims. However, my Muslim neighbors have come around with food to give me. I don't know what it was, but was it ever good! Our God is the God of Abraham.

 

[Shalimar]

I strongly dispute your statement that "Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli Muslims." Israeli Jews have certain rights (like the right of return) denied Israeli Muslims. But millions of Muslim women have no rights at all. And millions more Muslims live in cruel theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

With respect, I believe many Palestinians would disagree with you. Certainly my Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members would. As would the forty percent of my family who are Jews. Extremism is global, and it destroys lives in many different ways.

 

[JimBob1952]

With respect, I believe many Palestinians would disagree with you. Certainly my Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members would. As would the forty percent of my family who are Jews. Extremism is global, and it destroys lives in many different ways.

Ok. We agree to disagree. But remember your Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members lost them because the Israelis retaliated after being on the wrong end of terrorist attacks. No attacks, no retribution.

 

[Shalimar]

Ok. We agree to disagree. But remember your Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members lost them because the Israelis retaliated after being on the wrong end of terrorist attacks. No attacks, no retribution.

Again we disagree, but it is refreshing to be able to share disparate opinions without rancour. I hope you have a great day.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

One of the things that fascinates me the most is the argument certain bigoted Christians make when they claim Islam is "sexist" and anti female. This despite the fact that 70% of all converts to the religion both in the US and in Europe are female. If it is so sexist, then how does it manage to attract so many women?

Just a couple of hours ago I was on a chat where we were discussing Dutch colonialism in Indonesia. One person who has considerably more knowledge on that subject than I do mentioned how the daughters of Dutch colonialists often married Indonesia men and how they readily accepted Islam. Ironically just yesterday I was on another chat where someone said that the only good that will come out of all these Afghans coming into America and Europe is that they will spread Islam as many will easily convert to it.

I have absolutely no objection to anyone exercising their conscience. What ever religion they chose is their business not mine. But for some reason I cannot understand how is it that Islam so easily converts people everywhere it goes. Again, no objection on my part. Bear in mind that most of my ancient ancestors were Jews who lived in Spain. History shows that Muslims saved the lives of tens of thousands of Jews who would have been exterminated by Christians if Muslims had not defended them. Same thing happened in Albania when the Nazis invaded. Millions of Jews throughout the world owe their lives to the Muslims. That is a fact.

Who knows? Maybe some day Islam will be the majority religion in this world. Perhaps we will then have universal Peace.

 

[JimBob1952]

Again we disagree, but it is refreshing to be able to share disparate opinions without rancour. I hope you have a great day.

You too, Shalimar. You're a kind soul and you have my total respect.

 

[JimBob1952]

Since this thread was focused on Muslims and my conversation with Diva was regarding something in the Quran, that's where I was confining my remarks.

There's no question that Christians of every sect have also proven themselves to be horrifically bloodthirsty and untrustworthy. I believe religions are created by humans to provide power to a few, control the masses' behaviors, and shield men (mostly men) from being held responsible for unconscionable acts.

All major religions scare me. Messages of peace, love, gentleness and charity get bastardized by those with big enough swords, guns and missiles to get their way, or enough charisma to sway the masses and pick their pockets.

On the other hand, countries that have tried to do without religion (USSR, China, North Korea come to mind) haven't done so well either.

 

[Shalimar]

You too, Shalimar. You're a kind soul and you have my total respect.

Oh, thank you, I am touched by your words. You are an authentic person, and I admire that very much.

 

[Alligatorob]

I could not find anywhere that broke down hijacking of planes by religion or even race. Maybe someone else can. I did find that the golden age of hijacking, in the USA, was from May 1961 to the end of 1972.

There were 159 hijackings.

A lot of these were done by Cubans who wanted to return to Cuba according to what I read. Guess one boat ride across the ocean was enough.

I am sure you are right, but the more recent 9/11 hijackings were done by people from the Middle East, mostly Saudis, and I think that is what most people remember best. I don't believe there were many if any deaths as the result of the Cuban hijackings.

I am not saying its a rational feeling, just the opposite actually. But it is one a lot of people have, many of our gut reactions are based in instinct and not rational, not if we want to live in a civilized society. My point is we need to recognize it and not let it cause us to do irrational things.

 

[Alligatorob]

Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members lost them because the Israelis retaliated after being on the wrong end of terrorist attacks. No attacks, no retribution.

Wish I had an answer to the Palestinian problem... You are right the immediate cause of those deaths was Israeli retaliation for attacks, however at least some of the Palestinian victims had nothing to do with those attacks and I suspect many would have been against them. Result could be more, not less, Palestinian support for the attacks. Not saying its right, but it is a real problem. A bad cycle of violence.

I believe the root cause for much of the Palestinian problem dates back to the resettlement of Jews in Palestine and the formation of Israel after WWII. Given what the Nazis did it was an understandable thing; however this displaced a lot of Palestinians, who were not Nazis or responsible for what the Nazis did. There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.

Maybe its another place in the world we are trying to do too much, but given the tight and historical relationship between the West and Israel its hard to disengage.

 

[Devi]

There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.

Excellent statement re the Palestinians and Israelis, @Alligatorob.

 

[JimBob1952]

Wish I had an answer to the Palestinian problem... You are right the immediate cause of those deaths was Israeli retaliation for attacks, however at least some of the Palestinian victims had nothing to do with those attacks and I suspect many would have been against them. Result could be more, not less, Palestinian support for the attacks. Not saying its right, but it is a real problem. A bad cycle of violence.

I believe the root cause for much of the Palestinian problem dates back to the resettlement of Jews in Palestine and the formation of Israel after WWII. Given what the Nazis did it was an understandable thing; however this displaced a lot of Palestinians, who were not Nazis or responsible for what the Nazis did. There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.

Maybe its another place in the world we are trying to do too much, but given the tight and historical relationship between the West and Israel its hard to disengage.

I don't disagree with you. This is a really thorny problem and I'm sure it's aggravated by some of Israel's policies. However I think there is a lot of bad faith among supporters of the Palestinians. They overlook terrorist attacks and alliances with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, yet demand the highest standards of conduct from the Israelis. Matters aren't helped by people like Rashida Tlaib, who display maps in their offices showing the disappearance of Israel.

The Israelis might be paranoid, but various Arab states did try to wipe them out in multiple wars over a 25 year period, so a certain amount of paranoia is understandable.

 

[Alligatorob]

The Israelis might be paranoid, but various Arab states did try to wipe them out in multiple wars over a 25 year period, so a certain amount of paranoia is understandable.

Absolutely! However you can't deny that some feelings of resentment at being displaced and losing land on the part of Palestinians is also understandable. Wish I knew the answer to this one...