That is part of his intellectual hubris, as he is also quoted as saying "Carl Sagan is one of only two people I ever met whose intellect surpassed my own."
The other was Marvin Minsky, computer scientist.
Religion: The views of an agnostic
- Thread starter CAKCy
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That is part of his intellectual hubris, as he is also quoted as saying "Carl Sagan is one of only two people I ever met whose intellect surpassed my own."
The other was Marvin Minsky, computer scientist.
Shero
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"When was the last time you experienced a change of the "scriptures" i.e. the Holy Bible scratching something out and replacing it with something else?" (feywon)
You cannot rewrite “history” of another era.
You must believe in the one true religion which is (fill in the blank) in order to be saved. All religions can't be right, so the only conclusion is that they all must be wrong. (spectratg)
Disagree. They all contain "truths" relevant to their respective believers.
Some scientists also “fudge” their results (Shero)
One cannot blame Science for the imperfections of its ministers. (CAKCy)
Agree.
Feywon, you speak of “moebius bend: Is that the same as Mobius strip?
You cannot rewrite “history” of another era.
You must believe in the one true religion which is (fill in the blank) in order to be saved. All religions can't be right, so the only conclusion is that they all must be wrong. (spectratg)
Disagree. They all contain "truths" relevant to their respective believers.
Some scientists also “fudge” their results (Shero)
One cannot blame Science for the imperfections of its ministers. (CAKCy)
Agree.
Feywon, you speak of “moebius bend: Is that the same as Mobius strip?
Warrigal
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I think it was Einstein who commented that the language of the Universe is mathematics, so why not look to mathematics for inspiration and improbable possibilities?
Warrigal
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Have you ever read the Book of Esther? The ending is quite grisly.
Warrigal
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I don't doubt that he said this. He certainly had a very inflated ego.
I love you too, C
I seldom, if ever, greet any new recruits
and, I'll not sing
The birds appreciate it
Well, there was that one time
Up by the cabin
The chickadee gave me wunna these;
CAKCy
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And you call that.... appreciation????I love you too, C
I seldom, if ever, greet any new recruits
and, I'll not sing
The birds appreciate it
Well, there was that one time
Up by the cabin
The chickadee gave me wunna these;
It was probably facing the other way until you started singing.......
CAKCy
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I love Mathematics! My favorite hobby when I was a kid was listen to music, drink Coke and solve Math problems!
Any specific inspiration and improbable possibility I should be looking for?
CAKCy
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I reply for everybody. They may have a different view...
Agreed: One cannot rewrite "history". But one can rewrite the holy book of every religion to apply to modern times.
There is but one truth. There cannot be multiple truths to serve various tastes.
Yes, moebius ben is the Mobius strip.
CAKCy
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A donation with the note: "Please make him stop!"
Warrigal
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Let's see..I love Mathematics! My favorite hobby when I was a kid was listen to music, drink Coke and solve Math problems!
Any specific inspiration and improbable possibility I should be looking for?
That the universe is not a closed system, or that the laws of thermodynamics fail at the extremities of the universe, or that the universe looks like a mobius strip, or a donut, when viewed from outside. Take your pick or use your imagination to call up other possibilities.
CAKCy
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In the case of the universe being a mobius strip or a donut then no creator is necessarily needed. The universe would exist forever (past and future without beginning and end). It's beyond human logic but so is God.
The universe doesn't need to be a closed system for the laws of thermodynamics to apply. Even if there was vacuum beyond the universe there's a good chance that the laws would still apply. We don't know. Yet.
Shero
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Big mistake mon ami, you cannot reply for anyone !
You say: "There is but one truth. There cannot be multiple truths to serve various tastes."
Disagree: there is: empirical truth and convenient truth
CAKCy
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WHAT? You beg to differ???
Shero
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Always, it is my trademark
Shalimar
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I am not qualified to discuss higher level mathematics, sadly my brain is not wired that way, however, I do not believe logic has all the answers. To me, life is like a cosmic onion, lol, endless layers of experience, not always amenable to thought. Hey, I am well versed in the scientific method, but, like everything else, I believe it has limitations. Let us endeavour to keep the doors and windows of our experience open, we may be surprised by joy, and perhaps enlightenment. What a beautiful puzzle it all is.
CAKCy
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My Lady, I'm afraid I may have to disagree with you about logic not having all the answers. I can picture the cosmic onion you refer to, the endless layers of experience but what is often not amenable to thought, it almost always leads to transgressions that may cause bitterness if not worse.
The scientific method does have its limitations, simply because science has not progressed enough to overcome those limitations. I believe that there will be a point in time that science won't have those limitations (it's only Monday.... wait until Friday...)
Believing in the power of science does not, in any way, mean not keeping the doors and windows of our experience open. On the contrary experience becomes knowledge and enlightenment along with imagination are what opens new ways for science to reach its final destination. And yes, the puzzle is beautiful!
On a personal level, I kind of gave up on the hope of surprises, especially by joy, when hope became consuming and draining. One has to let logic prevail before one goes under.
The scientific method does have its limitations, simply because science has not progressed enough to overcome those limitations. I believe that there will be a point in time that science won't have those limitations (it's only Monday.... wait until Friday...)
Believing in the power of science does not, in any way, mean not keeping the doors and windows of our experience open. On the contrary experience becomes knowledge and enlightenment along with imagination are what opens new ways for science to reach its final destination. And yes, the puzzle is beautiful!
On a personal level, I kind of gave up on the hope of surprises, especially by joy, when hope became consuming and draining. One has to let logic prevail before one goes under.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Not at all. I am a Perez on my mother's side. If you see the ancestral lines mentioned in the Bible you see that David, Solomon, and Jesus were all descended of this family line. My ancestors having largely been Sefardic Jews, this means that I can trace my ancestry directly to them. Thus, to me these people are as real as my own blood is to me.
My point in challenging lying antichrists like the Armstrongs is that I hate to see people lied to and led to what Christians call "perdition". The Armstrongs being the liars that they are conveniently ignored my challenges because they knew I was correct and that they would be embarrassed if they debated me in public. This is similar to SF forum pundits who claim they "ignore" my writings - it is an acknowledgement of sorts that they know what I've written is the truth and that they lack the means to refute it.
Sadly, this is true. But as Westerners we mostly concern ourselves with the horrendous actions taken by those claiming to be Holy Warriors from our own fold such as,
CAKCy
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Not at all. I am a Perez on my mother's side. If you see the ancestral lines mentioned in the Bible you see that David, Solomon, and Jesus were all descended of this family line. My ancestors having largely been Sefardic Jews, this means that I can trace my ancestry directly to them. Thus, to me these people are as real as my own blood is to me.
My point in challenging lying antichrists like the Armstrongs is that I hate to see people lied to and led to what Christians call "perdition". The Armstrongs being the liars that they are conveniently ignored my challenges because they knew I was correct and that they would be embarrassed if they debated me in public. This is similar to SF forum pundits who claim they "ignore" my writings - it is an acknowledgement of sorts that they know what I've written is the truth and that they lack the means to refute it.
Sadly, this is true. But as Westerners we mostly concern ourselves with the horrendous actions taken by those claiming to be Holy Warriors from our own fold such as,
My question came up when I thought why some popular con-men (like the Armstrongs) would pay any attention to a commoner?
Ummmm... I don't think Westerners concern our/yourselves with the horrendous actions of the "Holy Warriors". We/they (especially the US) are mostly occupied with accusing every other religion for their actions and how terrible they are! If an alien listened to Westerners talking he/she/it would be convinced that "terrorism" is always Muslim and speaks Arabic.....
Shalimar
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I won’t bore anyone with a clinical perspective, but interestingly enough, my hope burned brightest during the endless crucible of my childhood. As a slave, the only thing I owned was my mind, and the imagination which allowed me inner access to the world I built to escape the horror. That world remains, and although I have been blocked from
entry since I was fourteen, I can still see it as through a window. Sigh. For all its fantasy, that world was far more grounded and sensible than the paedophile stable which defined my existence, or the family home where pretence ruled. Reality, like perception, can be very flexible indeed. I believe I think rather well, can employ scientific method well enough to get my thesis approved at
least. Lol. Am I bitter? Sometimes, when CPTSD takes hold, and the dragons I keep in boxes wreak havoc in my mind. My experience of scientific method as a kid involved some rather brutal experiments.Apparently you can learn a lot if you are willing to use advanced interrogation techniques. But, most of the time I am grateful for the less
tangible things this journey taught me, how to read people, how to be feral and read ones surroundings, be at one with nature in a way a more civilized person often is not. Much of
this is difficult to explain because it is subliminal. Empathetic on a rather large scale. My boss tells me this is the best gift I bring to my practice. I try to integrate, thought, emotion, and my connection to the pattern I sense but cannot see. Perhaps I do not explain this very well, poetry rather than prose is my metier. As for surprises, I am amazed
every day that I am still alive, and have been graced with the privilege of serving others. The other children never made it out of adolescence. I am blessed to be able to make their deaths count. Life is good
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oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Of course the miracles of Jesus have been duplicated and surpassed. A human heart can be removed and replaced with another human heart-what greater miracle do you need? Was this science, yes. But still a miracle.
As far as I know, neither God nor Jesus defined how the miracles were to come about-so science is an accepted method of obtaining miracles. Religion is not a necessary component of belief in God, but it probably helps
Medical science surpasses biblical miracles? Well, am not sure about that especially when you consider how St Peter used his shadow to raise thousands of people from death beds and how the dead were brought back to life by Jesus and his apostles.
~ science is an accepted method of obtaining miracles ~
Some would argue that Moses's parting of the water with a staff was scientific {believe it or not, I actually heard that argument one time}.
~ neither God nor Jesus defined how the miracles were to come about ~
One of Christianity's major failings is that it teaches almost exclusively by commandment rather than by example. But when you read Jesus's teachings, he continually says "imitate me"*. Thus he, more often than not, was teaching by example. In fact, I have seen Christian references to him as the Great Exemplar. On that basis, the Bible does illustrate how miracles are to take place.
* 10 Bible verses about Imitating Jesus (knowing-jesus.com)
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Very simply: because churches are institutions that amass large fortunes (all of it untaxed) in the USA every year and the Armstrongs pocketed millions of dollars from the deluded masses.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
I won’t bore anyone with a clinical perspective, but interestingly enough, my hope burned brightest during the endless crucible of my childhood. As a slave, the only thing I owned was my mind, and the imagination which allowed me inner access to the world I built to escape the horror. That world remains, although I have been blocked from
entry since I was fourteen, I can still see it as through a window. Sigh. For all its fantasy, that world was far more grounded and sensible than the paedophile stable which defined my existence, or the family home where pretence ruled. Reality, like perception, can be very flexible indeed. I believe I think rather well, can employ scientific method well enough to get my thesis approved at
least. Lol. Am I bitter? Sometimes, when CPTSD takes hold, and the dragons I keep in boxes wreak havoc in my mind. My experience of scientific method as a kid involved some rather brutal experiments. But, most of the time I am grateful for the less tangible things this journey taught me, how to read people, how to be feral and read ones surroundings, be at one with nature in a way a more civilized person often is not. Much of
this is difficult to explain because it is subliminal. Empathetic on a rather large scale. My boss tells me this is the best gift I bring to my practice. I try to integrate, thought, emotion, and my connection to the pattern I sense but cannot see. Perhaps I do not explain this very well, poetry rather than prose is my metier. As for surprises, I am amazed
every day that I am still alive, and have been graced with the privilege of serving others. They other children never made it out of adolescence. I am blessed to be able to make their deaths count. Life is good
My Lady, I'm speechless.... There's a lot I don't know about you and your childhood and I'm grateful that you chose to share it. Other than that... I... wow... I... better keep my mouth shut.... wow....
I know it's cliché but I would be a monster if I didn't say that I'm so, so sorry for what you had to go through. I know it doesn't mean much but it's true and genuine. And I'm really glad that you reached the point to be able to say that "Life is good"... Really, really glad...
Shalimar
SF VIP
- Location
- Vancouver Island Canada
Thank you for your kind words.My Lady, I'm speechless.... There's a lot I don't know about you and your childhood and I'm grateful that you chose to share it. Other than that... I... wow... I... better keep my mouth shut.... wow....
I know it's cliché but I would be a monster if I didn't say that I'm so, so sorry for what you had to go through. I know it doesn't mean much but it's true and genuine. And I'm really glad that you reached the point to be able to say that "Life is good"... Really, really glad...