CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
Please don't thank me...
Words mean nothing...
They solve nothing...
They are worth nothing....
Please don't thank me........................
Religion: The views of an agnostic
- Thread starter CAKCy
- Start date
Please don't thank me...
Words mean nothing...
They solve nothing...
They are worth nothing....
Please don't thank me........................
Shalimar
SF VIP
- Location
- Vancouver Island Canada
To a poet, they mean everything. They are jewels harvested from the union of ones subconscious and the Pattern. Born of the labour of imagination, precious children indeed. Loved beyond measure. Imho.
Well, sir
If you wish
Or you have a sleep thing to cure
Yer sure welcome to read my not so little thread that started with a five year off grid stint in the mountains
Our version of retirement: Living a childhood dream | Senior Forums
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
To a poet, they mean everything. They are jewels harvested from the union of ones subconscious and the Pattern. Born of the labour of imagination, precious children indeed. Loved beyond measure. Imho.
Then let me speak those words that will take as much of the pain, as much of the anguish, as much of the demons of the past away. Let my words turn the past into a movie you once watched and cried over but not experienced yourself. My empathy is screaming "Do something! Take her pain away"... Yet I can only sit here, typing nonsense to a person who's suffered so much.
Powerlessness... Pain... Unbearable pain... Emotion matched with emotion. Tear with tear. Fear with fear.
I didn't know.
I didn't know.
I'm so... so sorry.....
Shalimar
SF VIP
- Location
- Vancouver Island Canada
Thank you again, I am ok, I have walked the high wire without a net all my life, fall often, always get up. I am no longer powerless, and no one can ever take away my dignity again. I offer up my brokenness as a candle in the dark, to those of my beloved clients in the pit, others in agony, and to anyone open to being educated about the resilience of
the human spirit. I often say to my clients, “if you cannot hold your hope right now, I will hold it for you.” We cry a lot in my office, also. Sometimes I hold their tears until we can grieve together. Healthy stuff, for them and for me. This is
the transformation which makes sense of being waterboarded at nine years old. Most days, it is worth it. An open heart can do many things. If I can survive, and flourish, perhaps so can they.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
Alligatorob
SF VIP
I think you are right about these issues being economic, or maybe pollical, however as I understand how the Mormon church works God is in regular communication with their head, the President and Prophet. So it seems their God had some role in making these decisions...
You are right polygamy is still practiced in Utah, by a lot of different groups. However it is not sanctioned by the modern LDS Church and practicing it will get you excommunicated.
For those less familiar with the LDS or Mormon Church many use those terms interchangeably. As I understand it they now officially prefer to be called LDS or Later Day Saints, but I don't think Mormon is derogatory. Their gospel is still the Book of Mormon. And their Priesthood includes all adult male members in good standing, very different from the Catholics.
Been a long time since I heard those names, but remember them well from my youth, Garner Ted in particular. Used to occasionally listen to their radio show "The World Tomorrow". Not surprised they weren't interested in your challenge, I think their interest was mostly in fund raising and making money, they didn't see talking to you as a way to help that.
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Aneeda72
Well-known Member
All religions, all churches are financial institutions and the LDS church is especially financial and aggressive about it. When we first moved here, over forty years ago, the LDS church members came to your house EVERY WEEK, and demanded their piece your pie. Donation envelopes in their hands.
This church, somehow, had access to your state taxes records, knew exactly how much you made, and demanded their 10 per cent. Took a while to convince them we were not LDS.
If you believe in God, God is always with you “in your head”, and the head of your regilious leaders who may be called priests, preachers, prophets, and/or pissants As mu dad referred to them before he joined their “racket”. Depends on whose doing the name calling I suppose,
.Although depending on your political beliefs, God or the Devil is with the President.
Aneeda72
Well-known Member
If you believe that all things come from God, then that would include science. The Bible, as noted, was not written by God and is not a reliable source of information
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
The Bible speaks of itself as "plenary inspiration". Every Christian church I know of teaches that. Thus, what you have written there would be considered blasphemous by many of them (not to me, of course).
Aneeda72
Well-known Member
Well, I am not worried, I will not be judged by “every Christian church”-anyone in every Christian church judging me or what I wrote as blasphemous had better read their Bible more carefully. “Judge not, less you be judged.” Judgment is left to GOD-something the Bible is extremely clear on.
I will be judged by God. All the rest is simply dirt blowing in the wind-blah,blah, blah. Or did you miss that part in reading your “plenary inspiration” of the Bible?
. @oldiebutgoody
Well, let me put it this way, Oldie. If you were on the brink of death from a medical condition, but surgery had a good chance of saving you, which would you turn to, the surgeon, or praying to St. Peter to do a miracle with his shadow? For anyone living in this day and age, in his right mind, the surgeon would definitely "surpass" St. Peter. Nothing wrong with praying to St. Peter, or Jesus, or whoever, but the surgeon comes first.
Anything quoted from the Bible, and taken as absolute truth, cannot be trusted. Whatever was written thousands of years ago has been subject to so much interpretation and argument, so many changes, and plain old common sense skepticism, that it cannot even be considered on the same level of credibility as science.
About Moses parting the water, somebody once wrote a book (I forget the name, it was a long time ago) conjecturing how many of the "miracle" stories in the Bible were probably true, or how those events came to be. But according the the author, they were not really miracles. An asteroid came close enough to the earth to cause most of the events described in the book of Exodus (plague, locusts, death by disease, hail, etc.) and the parting of the water which permitted the Jews to escape from slavery was a tsunami.
I wish I could remember the name of the book; it certainly was food for thought.
One mind-boggling theory is that the entire universe originated from the explosion of a tiny "dot" (with no dimensions?) over millions of years into the enormous entity filled with trillions of stars that we have now.
But eventually, it will reverse. Gravity will cause the whole enormity to fall back on itself and once again become a singularity. And that one may once again explode, producing a new universe.
And so on. Maybe it goes on and on, without end. Maybe we are the millionth version of human beings, either in one of those past universes or even (likely) in the present one. It's like a giant bubble that originates as a tiny dot, then shrinks back into a dot again, then explodes again, and so on.
If I've given anyone a headache, I apologize. The idea came from Stephen Hawking.
But eventually, it will reverse. Gravity will cause the whole enormity to fall back on itself and once again become a singularity. And that one may once again explode, producing a new universe.
And so on. Maybe it goes on and on, without end. Maybe we are the millionth version of human beings, either in one of those past universes or even (likely) in the present one. It's like a giant bubble that originates as a tiny dot, then shrinks back into a dot again, then explodes again, and so on.
If I've given anyone a headache, I apologize. The idea came from Stephen Hawking.
Shero
Senior Member
- Location
- Transient in the Land of Oz
On the question of logic CAKCy and Shalimar are both correct. Logic has the answers and also no answers. Though in a broad sense logic is about valid reasoning, it depends on who is dispensing that logic and in which situation. One cannot apply logic to matters of the heart or spiritual beliefs.
Shero
Senior Member
- Location
- Transient in the Land of Oz
I guessed!
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
@CAKCy said:
"...If new ideas/paradigms are left in the drawer for any reason (publicity, greed, ego etc.) doesn't that make science untrustworthy or a huge conspiracy? The same applies when studies are conducted aiming at reaching a pre-determined conclusion."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i can see how you reached that conclusion, however, i don't think there's a 'huge' conspiracy, tho perhaps some small ones in some fields involving some researchers. i suspect most of the decisions to squash research and evidence supporting new ideas is done for reasons of protecting the squasher's own status, job, etc.
As for 'debunking' research, the good news is some such researchers (who even if they don't acknowledge that was their goal, someone who knows a little about human psychology and how research is conducted can tell by how their experiments are set up what their aim was) acknowledge their experiments supported different conclusions than they were looking to find. The grand irony is that modern scanning equipment like fMRIs make some kinds of research harder because they can actually show the activity in various areas of the brain as the research into the effects of things like meditation on the brain. fMRIs were very instrumental in the new acknowledgments of neuroplasticity. because they showed that the 'brain maps' that were thought to be dedicated to just one thing can be trained to support other body parts sensory gathering, info processing.
Early on this thread in a response to someone you quoted the 'use it or lose it' axiom. There are some new ones in neurobiology: Neurons that fire together, wire together. Neurons that fire apart, wire apart. The first being my favorite, it is crucial in being adaptable, changing unwanted habits of any kind.
i've long felt prayer can be a form of meditation tho it often is not because of the mind set of the person as they say or think it. Some people repeat standard prayers of their faith by rote without actually thinking about the meaning of the words or really 'feeling' what they are saying. But when the prayers have personal meaning to the speaker, when they say it mindfully, it has a different impact on the brain. This is why both Buddhist Monks and some Catholic Nuns can enter into an 'alpha' state of mind easily--the Buddhist monks label it 'meditation' the Nuns (unless they've had the Silva Meditation training (which when i took the course was free to any clergy of any faith) will use 'prayer'--but the brainwaves of both will change to 'alpha' rhythms. Some lab (maybe several) somewhere have reams of printouts showing that people can consciously choose to change the rhythm of their brainwaves, which matters because at alpha we learn faster and better, and with minimal effort retain more of what we learn in that state. Being at alpha is a kind of self-hypnosis in which you can give yourself post hypnotic suggestions that aid in making wanted changes in your life.
"...If new ideas/paradigms are left in the drawer for any reason (publicity, greed, ego etc.) doesn't that make science untrustworthy or a huge conspiracy? The same applies when studies are conducted aiming at reaching a pre-determined conclusion."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i can see how you reached that conclusion, however, i don't think there's a 'huge' conspiracy, tho perhaps some small ones in some fields involving some researchers. i suspect most of the decisions to squash research and evidence supporting new ideas is done for reasons of protecting the squasher's own status, job, etc.
As for 'debunking' research, the good news is some such researchers (who even if they don't acknowledge that was their goal, someone who knows a little about human psychology and how research is conducted can tell by how their experiments are set up what their aim was) acknowledge their experiments supported different conclusions than they were looking to find. The grand irony is that modern scanning equipment like fMRIs make some kinds of research harder because they can actually show the activity in various areas of the brain as the research into the effects of things like meditation on the brain. fMRIs were very instrumental in the new acknowledgments of neuroplasticity. because they showed that the 'brain maps' that were thought to be dedicated to just one thing can be trained to support other body parts sensory gathering, info processing.
Early on this thread in a response to someone you quoted the 'use it or lose it' axiom. There are some new ones in neurobiology: Neurons that fire together, wire together. Neurons that fire apart, wire apart. The first being my favorite, it is crucial in being adaptable, changing unwanted habits of any kind.
i've long felt prayer can be a form of meditation tho it often is not because of the mind set of the person as they say or think it. Some people repeat standard prayers of their faith by rote without actually thinking about the meaning of the words or really 'feeling' what they are saying. But when the prayers have personal meaning to the speaker, when they say it mindfully, it has a different impact on the brain. This is why both Buddhist Monks and some Catholic Nuns can enter into an 'alpha' state of mind easily--the Buddhist monks label it 'meditation' the Nuns (unless they've had the Silva Meditation training (which when i took the course was free to any clergy of any faith) will use 'prayer'--but the brainwaves of both will change to 'alpha' rhythms. Some lab (maybe several) somewhere have reams of printouts showing that people can consciously choose to change the rhythm of their brainwaves, which matters because at alpha we learn faster and better, and with minimal effort retain more of what we learn in that state. Being at alpha is a kind of self-hypnosis in which you can give yourself post hypnotic suggestions that aid in making wanted changes in your life.
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fuzzybuddy
SF VIP
- Location
- The Sticks, Northeast PA.
Again, all the comments have been about a Judeo/Christian concept of a god. There are tens of thousands of other deities, with worshippers equally convinced their version of a deity is the 'one and only true' version of a deity. How do believers reconcile this problem. For if you say one religion is the "true" religion, then all the others are false.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Well, I am not worried, I will not be judged by “every Christian church”-anyone in every Christian church judging me or what I wrote as blasphemous had better read their Bible more carefully. “Judge not, less you be judged.” Judgment is left to GOD-something the Bible is extremely clear on.
I will be judged by God. All the rest is simply dirt blowing in the wind-blah,blah, blah. Or did you miss that part in reading your “plenary inspiration” of the Bible?
I wrote that some would have that view while I clearly do not. Hope you didn't miss that part of my post.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
I haven't seen any church services where someone snaps their finger and suddenly people rise from their graves. This is something promised in the New Testament but the churches fail to deliver on that promise.
Recall that I mentioned above how more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. A sad but very real fact that has been fully documented and is historically incontrovertible.
Actually, I believe that I read a portion of a book that dealt with that subject. Like you, just cannot recall its name or writer.
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
@Alligatorob said:
"I know religions are slow to admit to things and change, but there are examples of it over time. The best examples I can think of right now are the Mormons. They once supported polygamy and no longer do. They also once did not allow black people to hold the priesthood, and that has changed. I am sure there are other examples in many religions."
One of my boys converted to Mormon faith in his 20's. Even went on a 'mission', tho older that the usual age of missionaries. i had raised my kids with exposure to many religious ideas and philosophies and encouraged them to research thoroughly, and not commit unless they felt they could keep all the tenets of the faith. That the only thing that would upset me would be if they became hypocrites. He no longer practices, larger because despite the fact that while a convert he kept the tenets of the faith better than many raised in it. It became difficult when the local parish showed more support for his cheating wife than for him.
For me the change i want to see is LDS accepting LGBTQ people. i have never understood how a faith that claims to value family so highly can rationalize ripping families apart by villainizing people for things that are not a matter of choice.
"I know religions are slow to admit to things and change, but there are examples of it over time. The best examples I can think of right now are the Mormons. They once supported polygamy and no longer do. They also once did not allow black people to hold the priesthood, and that has changed. I am sure there are other examples in many religions."
One of my boys converted to Mormon faith in his 20's. Even went on a 'mission', tho older that the usual age of missionaries. i had raised my kids with exposure to many religious ideas and philosophies and encouraged them to research thoroughly, and not commit unless they felt they could keep all the tenets of the faith. That the only thing that would upset me would be if they became hypocrites. He no longer practices, larger because despite the fact that while a convert he kept the tenets of the faith better than many raised in it. It became difficult when the local parish showed more support for his cheating wife than for him.
For me the change i want to see is LDS accepting LGBTQ people. i have never understood how a faith that claims to value family so highly can rationalize ripping families apart by villainizing people for things that are not a matter of choice.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
I think that is probably coming, but slowly. They did not accept black people as full equals until 1978, pretty slow on the civil rights thing too. I see some progress being made, one can only hope.
feywon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rural North Central NM
i know and have in fact said that myself to people for whom that was the main issue. Look at how long the Catholic church has been around and they still haven't. Episcopalians, at least their clergy i've known, on the other hand tend to adjust to the times a bit more quickly.
In religions as well science it often takes the changing of the 'guard' as older generations retire or pass away for changes to come to fruition.
CAKCy
Member
- Location
- Cyprus, East Mediterranean
I'm glad you can see the logic of my conclusion. Re hugeness of conspiracy: Many small ones (especially for reasons of profit making) added together make a huge conspiracy. For example: There are rumors that cure for cancer has been found but it's not made public for profit purposes..
Aneeda72
Well-known Member
There is no one cure for cancer, just as there is no one vaccine for everything. Many forms of cancer are curable, many forms are not. My son had cancer in his stomach, but it was not stomach cancer. It was testicular cancer, because he had testicular cancer. It was curable with surgery-removal of the testicular, and chemo for his stomach.
Breast cancer spreads to your bones. But it is not bone cancer, it’s breast cancer. Bone cancer is a different cancer. Therefore, I disagree with anyone who says there is one cure for cancer, there is not.
I have MDS-a rare red blood cell cancer, a long term cancer. 30% of people with MDS get an adult on set leukemia for which there is no cure. Yet, many forms of leukemia are curable. Cancer runs in my family like a river. I wish there was a cure. However,
, there is a vaccine for some cancers given to teenagers. Go figure.
Dancing_Queen
Member
All I can say is that this is an interesting (and I mean that sincerely) philosophical take on the difference in this case between "saying" and "believing." I'm doing this from memory and know I'm missing something. There's probably an easy way to find your original story, but I don't know what it is and have no idea how far back through 315 posts it is.I have tried to explain I'm still unsure, twenty years on what it really means to state something seemingly so simple, as "When we SAY there is a god, there is a god, when we SAY there is no god, there is no god", (my first thought twenty years ago was that it couldn't be right because it suggests mankind creates god, not the other way around).
However, I must have tried to discuss the sermon I'm referring to a few times since then, and realise that's an achievement in itself, by the minister, "making you think"!
Now my thinking is this, notice the word "SAY".
That's the operative word, those people gathered in church on the day listening to the minister were choosing to say there was a god, not that they thought or necessarily believed there was a god, oddly enough, and it is a group choosing to do this, not one person thinking for themselves alone, (that' you're interpretation isn't it, and where you fall down in your understanding in my view).
Now many of those people in that church had spent a lifetime trying to understand their religion, and professing a faith, and were far more knowledgeable than I, and of course the minister himself, fulfilling such a skilled role, as an instructor/teacher, leader, drawing people together, trying to encourage people to think about their lives, have belief in themselves, (and in others), and making us collectively feel better about ourselves maybe, and assisting in meditation.
That's of course without mentioning any scriptures, and I'm sure many could come up with a very long list of the skills needed to lead even a small church.
So this idea I've put forward, "saying something" is the significant bit, when it comes to a religion, far more perhaps than even what it means to say you believe in a god, or "presence", or as I clumsily put it, "something outside of yourself", (and of the nature I'm trying to describe, by definition I'd say, atheists cannot do this!).
Any further forward or more confused? I'll fully understand if you believe I'm talking complete nonsense.