Did 2021 deal a fatal blow to climate-change denial?

This is another example of people just not willing to listen or discuss anything.

I think the word denial is over used .... most who are not alarmed, feel change has happened for ions not just since humans. Questioning the part each item plays in changes is NOT denial.

Humans have perhaps sped up a process or added but if that part is a small % how are ... for example TAXES going to change the weather.

I think with many issues we need to quit running to extremes and LABELING others ........... instead of finding common ground.
 
Perhaps the title of this post should have been "global-warming" but that gets political and pushes buttons. Climate-change is obvious over a long span of time and a short span of time...it is always changing. I think the data will show that 2021 tops the list in overall destruction of life and environment than any year in the past, globally. Minded...OVERALL. Are the ice caps melting? Proof? Is the ocean warming? More fires..tornadoes, extreme temperatures? Please try to leave the political bias out of this thread.
 
This is the idea...

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Paco Dennis said:
Is data and extreme weather events making it harder than ever to ignore our warming world?
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It does seem like the denial movement has been very quiet this year.
I feel like the denial thing is mostly caused by intentional misinformation promulgated by oil companies and their bought-off politicians.

Perhaps I'm overly cynical but I think the change in 2021 is that many of the people with tons of money are starting to see climate change is going to cost them money.
 
IFortuna said:
Science changes often, just ask a neuroscientist or a psychologist, or a medical doctor, etc. :)
Climate change has been happening at many times during history. and that has been proven.
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Gary O' said:
Oh, I do believe the climate is changing.

Stats?......pfffft

The upswing shown could very well be because we didn't record or have means to even know the events like we do now
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I agree. We all can use stats to edge our bets. This is about your perception of it actually getting worse or not.
 
Paco Dennis said:
Is data and extreme weather events making it harder than ever to ignore our warming world?
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I don't think so, most people, on both sides, base their opinions on belief and short term personal observation. Reality can only be determined by good science (inexactly at best) and long term widely spread averages. So I don't see much chance of change, not in a more rational direction anyway.
IFortuna said:
Science changes often
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I don't think so, science itself is relatively stable, but interpretations change. Its just a part of good science, as more data becomes available and more bright minds look into it accepted interpretation changes. While we may not all be scientists we do need to remember this, keeping it in mind when listening to scientific conclusions. They may change.

A changing paradigm is a sign of good science, and should not raise concern.
 
Climate changes, so does the science



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I ask this as a serious question, an often used phrase- This is the hottest/coldest/wettest/driest it has been since 1895. That sounds like a pretty significant piece of data, but why was it so hot/cold/wet/dry back in 1895?

I'm sure the climate is changing; it always has and always will. I'm not sure how good the computer models may or may not be at forecasting. Certainly, time will tell.
 
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HarryHawk said:
I'm not sure how good the computer models may or may not be at forecasting.
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I am, they are not. Long term weather or climate forecasting is a crapshoot, sophisticated computer model or Old Farmer's Almanac.

Assuming no unexpected changes I think the earth will continue to warm and sea level will continue to rise. And I think the green house gases we have added to the atmosphere have contributed to that. However unexpected changes happen all the time.
HarryHawk said:
Certainly, time will tell.
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Yep, kind of like playing roulette, after the wheel stops its pretty easy to forecast, up until then not so much.
 
40 years ago we were worried about an approaching ice age ........ now we are worried about 'melting' & frying .........

Two things come to mind ..... 1 the earth is ever-changing ..... nothing we can do about it. IMO it [the earth] is still developing , when it stops ..... that could be when we are really in trouble ?!

2 .... so many people need something to worry about & usually someone to blame.

Add the two together & ....... ya get just where we are today.
 
The earth is ever changing. But, the major changes usually take thousands of years. The current change is hundreds of times faster.

Fact: Glaciers and sea ice are disappearing rapidly.
Fact: The oceans are getting warmer.
Fact: The percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing drastically.
Fact: CO2 is a green house gas.
Fact: Most of this additional CO2 is produced by burning fossil fuels.

All of these have been measured, and the numbers are there if you want to search for them. Do you think maybe there's a reason to start worrying a little?
 
I guess I have to question what several leading proponents of Climate change know. I personally have no problem with these folks buying ocean front property, but if you really believe the end is in sight, does it make sense to build somewhere that will end up under water?

John Kerry spent $11.75 million in 2017 for a sprawling estate on the beach in Martha’s Vineyard.

Bill Gates paid $43 million for a massive house on the beach in Del Mar, California, near San Diego

Marty Nesbitt, a close friend of the Obamas and chairman of the Obama Foundation, purchased a tract of land in Hawaii for $8.7 million in 2015 and is building a trio of houses on the beachfront estate. The Obamas are believed to be planning to occupy at least one of the houses when construction is complete.

The Obamas own an $11.75 million mansion in Martha's Vineyard, near the water as well.

Al Gore invested nearly $9 million into an ocean view property in Montecito, California, in 2009.
 
HarryHawk said:
I personally have no problem with these folks buying ocean front property
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I suspect most of these folks know the property will one day be inundated but have enough disposable wealth not to care.

I owned Gulf of Mexico front property for almost 30 years, but in the end decided my "wealth" was not sufficiently disposable to keep it. Had no trouble finding a buyer.
 
Grampa Don said:
Fact: Glaciers and sea ice are disappearing rapidly.
Fact: The oceans are getting warmer.
Fact: The percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing drastically.
Fact: CO2 is a green house gas.
Fact: Most of this additional CO2 is produced by burning fossil fuels.
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All true, but I am not too worried. Its just a problem we will have to figure out how to deal with, or not...

One theory that interests me is the "Early Anthropogenic (or Anthropocene) Hypothesis". It puts forth evidence that human impact on climate began 8,000 years ago. And without that warming we would be in an ice age now. See http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.800.4663&rep=rep1&type=pdf and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_anthropocene or the attached paper.

I am not sure that theory is right, but it might be and shows the diversity of possible scientific interpretation of these facts. This is a theory put out by quite well known and reputable scientists.
 

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The trouble is that most people have zero understanding of thermodynamics or climate which is often
confused with weather. It is a fact that the earth is warming. The reason for the increase is that the earth receives radiant energy from the sun and reflects some of it back into space but not all of it. This is the greenhouse effect and it is caused by gases like carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (CH4). If the green house gases keep increasing, the warming will keep happening.

How to reverse this effect? Several solutions are possible but not all are liveable.

#1 Start nuclear war - fill the atmosphere with smoke and other particles that will block out the Sun's radiation. That will lead to rapid cooling and depopulation, which will also reduce the production of CO2.

#2 Stop cutting down forests and reforest urban areas by removing all single storey buildings and making everyone live in 30 storey towers with 15 above ground and 15 below ground. (I'm not really serious here but we must preserve and increase the wilderness spaces because these are the lungs of the planet that convert CO2 to O2.)

#3 The most practical and effective way of dealing with the problem is to stop burning all forms of fossil fuel to produce energy. At the same time industrial processes need to reduce greenhouse emissions or capture and store them. Reuse, recycling and repurposing of waste materials also has benefit for the environment in general in addition to reduction of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere.

This is a problem that we have been slowly creating ever since the Industrial Revolution and it is a problem that we are capable of solving by modifications to our habits, technology and economic systems.
 
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HoneyNut said:
It does seem like the denial movement has been very quiet this year.
I feel like the denial thing is mostly caused by intentional misinformation promulgated by oil companies and their bought-off politicians.
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They are busy with Covid issues, vaccines, masks, badmouthing the CDC and experts in the field of immunology etc. They'll all be back to continue to deny climate change in time for the 2024 elections.
 
@Warrigal -- Like HoneyNut, I think the trouble is that there are people and governments with financial reasons for denying climate change and our contribution to it. So, they spread doubt and misinformation. A lot of people hear this and since it's something they would like to believe, they believe it and spread it even more.

If one person tells you you're in deep pucky, and someone else says "oh no, you're fine", who are you likely to believe?
 
Warrigal said:
The trouble is that most people have zero understanding of thermodynamics or climate which often always confused with weather. It is a fact that the earth is warming. The reason for the increase is that the earth receives radiant energy from the sun and reflects some of it back into space but not all of it. This is the greenhouse effect and it is caused by gases like carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (CH4). If the green house gases keep increasing, the warming will keep happening.

How to reverse this effect? Several solutions are possible but not all are liveable.

#1 Start nuclear war - fill the atmosphere with smoke and other particles that will block out the Sun's radiation. That will lead to rapid cooling and depopulation, which will also reduce the production of CO2.

#2 Stop cutting down forests and reforest urban areas by removing all single storey buildings and making everyone live in 30 storey towers with 15 above ground and 15 below ground. (I'm not really serious here but we must preserve and increase the wilderness spaces because these are the lungs of the planet that convert CO2 to O2.)

#3 The most practical and effective way of dealing with the problem is to stop burning all forms of fossil fuel to produce energy. At the same time industrial processes need to reduce greenhouse emissions or capture and store them. Reuse, recycling and repurposing of waste materials also has benefit for the environment in general in addition to reduction of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere.

This is a problem that we have been slowly creating ever since the Industrial Revolution and it is a problem that we are capable of solving by modifications to our habits, technology and economic systems.
Click to expand...
I live in Texas and Loved your post (even #3). That says something about my belief in Climate Change. After living through 5 days of freezing weather last February that paralyzed our power grid, seeing major tornadoes in Kentucky in December, Hawaii flooding, the Polar Ice Cap melting, etc. I'm a believer. Due to Global Warming, clouds now carry more precipitation, which is why we have been seeing more flooding events.
 

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