Ghislaine Maxwell found guilty of supplying girls for financier Jeffrey Epstein

Pepper said:
............Everybody's looking for something.................
Some of them want to use you. Some of them want to get used by you. Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused
Sweet Dreams by Eurythmics
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exactly....
 
Bretrick said:
She was convicted of conspiracy to entice a minor to travel to engage in secs (my word) acts, conspiracy to transport a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, transporting a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, conspiracy to commit illegal secs trafficking of minors and secs trafficking of minors, the last of which carries a statutory maximum of 40 years in prison.
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Are you afraid or embarrassed to write "sex"? Just curious.
 
hollydolly said:
this is what the press are saying..however..I think she's now caught between a rock and a hard place.. if she grasses on others , someone will arrange for her to go the way of her boyfriend when she gets out or even before.. or conversely she doesn't name anyone and relies on her very expensive lawyers to get her the minimum time....

I think she'll wait to see what her sentence will be.. if she gets less than 10 years, she'll be out in 4 or 5.. and she won't name anyone... if she gets the full 9 yards.. then she may agree to co-operate at her first appeal ..

..all that said... if these particular celebrities, royals ( from several countries).. and politicians haven't been named during Maxwells' trial by the victims.. then it would be very difficult for the prosecution to prove that these others were involved in any way, so I can't imagine that she will get any reduction for naming others...it also means that if she doesn't.. it wil suit her , because she can continue to stay in that secret paedophile, circle.. when she is released....because for sure, she's going to be rotten meat by any of the upper social echelon to which she's been used to being a part of all of her life..
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Good point, why don't the victims out the people involved?
 
Pepper said:
How did Epstein make his money? Hedge funds? How? Who backed him? I don't think he was born rich, was he?
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he did have some legit business dealings but from articles at the time of his death most speculated that his dealings did not show enough $$$ to support this operation and lifestyle.
I know he liked to surround himself with rich and famous and some said they vacationed on island so was there a charge or was it like inviting friends over....
 
Jeni said:
he did have some legit business dealings but from articles at the time of his death most speculated that his dealings did not show enough $$$ to support this operation and lifestyle.
I know he liked to surround himself with rich and famous and some said they vacationed on island so was there a charge or was it like inviting friends over....
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Then how did he do it? By leveraging his debts? Maybe someone was backing him. What was his estate like? Did he have more than he owed? I really don't expect you to do all the work in finding out!!! But........how? Who?
 
Pepper said:
Then how did he do it? By leveraging his debts? Maybe someone was backing him. What was his estate like? Did he have more than he owed? I really don't expect you to do all the work in finding out!!! But........how? Who?
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my guess is those guests were clients who paid ...
maybe his "friends" picked up costs ... maybe a club with membership Dues ........
The attempts to read more about it were never clear as to where the money was from or where it went.

i do not think he was a host.... there had to be something in it for him .....

What i find surprising anymore is in stories media wants to cover they dissect everything in some dig up ... simply leave the reader to speculate...
Big secrets were kept .... not just girls but other staff many have not named we saw X,Y, Z there .....

why so much loyalty to keep quiet....... even big bucks fade after awhile how many past employees of rich/famous or infamous have spilled the beans after a certain time......
Once out of job ......him dead.. her in prison ......where is the pilots/ drivers / house staff .... or those who would love an expose story to make money on.
 
I truly believe that they made good with Prince Andrew, who by the way has been asked to present medical evidence that he does not sweat.
To gain access to the Royal residences and other royals.
 
Jeni said:
Not sure where all these folks took the girls...... but seemed too easy to have a private island and plane ....
if you were leaving the country on a commercial flight or real country that would require PASSPORT......

We do not have all the info but perhaps if girls are from poor families ........the parents might have consented to travel etc.
The red flags in this whole situation are obvious.... but the details matter and we do not have those.

As for harm ... yes many women regret/ feel awful/ have mental issues about any encounter like this .....
maybe they resort to alcohol/ pills to forget...
I just think many would have a better closure if not waiting close to 20 yrs to get it.

Same goes for people going after celebrities for alleged events 15-20 yrs ago.......maybe is is going after rich/ famous this does not happen to an average Joe .... without more proof then she said / he said

Maybe with 20/20 hindsight the amount they were paid was not good enough.......was simply not enough to be groped etc by older weird guys...

How many who did casting couch but did NOT get part ....feel disgusted and mad/ betrayed by what happened..... yet so many do not say anything until they jump on bandwagon or person is dead

Some say no thanks and walk away perhaps not working in field again.... maybe some regret that....

I have NOT walked in those shoes ........maybe i would see differently if I had lived through that.
but life does not have a Do-Over button.

In court to prosecute on a theory it is all the defendants issue ......
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That is wise to question if what you think would be different if you had a different experience. Because I live with a notion of a past life, a completely different consciousness than the consciousness I have now, I am really hung up on the notion that what we think and do is really about our circumstances and experiences.

While I love protecting men and women against sexual harassment, and sexual discrimination, I also feel sorry for the men who are getting into so much trouble for just touching a woman or saying the wrong thing, years after the fact or even it happens today. It seems like suddenly instead of laughing as we did when watching Mash, we are now calling for revenge on those terrible sexual preditors.

How we think about our sexuality has changed and I think we live in very confusing times! Given that, I don't think it is exactly fair to judge people for what they did in the past, with today's sensitivities. And in Maxwell's case, things are pretty complicated. I think she was trying to please her man. I would feel better about persecuting him than her. But as you said, we really don't know enough. And what of the girls' parents and the morals they learned.

Puritanism was very harmful to women. Has it raised its ugly head again? Why do we feel shame if it is not because of society? Mae West and prostitutes have argued for a different standard. Are we right to deny them their different understanding of what should be acceptable?
Are the girls victims of sexual experience or society's judgment?
 
Jeni said:
I had not seen that but there seems to be bits and pieces ..
i saw a interview with one of the girls and she did not say her family was poor... but was very happy about 300 to go to party and at first being taught to massage Epstein.... brought her sister next time.

I understand being poor but would not look the other way if my daughter was involved....
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There was a song about a mother telling her daughter to be nice to men.
 
Vida May said:
That is wise to question if what you think would be different if you had a different experience. Because I live with a notion of a past life, a completely different consciousness than the consciousness I have now, I am really hung up on the notion that what we think and do is really about our circumstances and experiences.

While I love protecting men and women against sexual harassment, and sexual discrimination, I also feel sorry for the men who are getting into so much trouble for just touching a woman or saying the wrong thing, years after the fact or even it happens today. It seems like suddenly instead of laughing as we did when watching Mash, we are now calling for revenge on those terrible sexual preditors.

How we think about our sexuality has changed and I think we live in very confusing times! Given that, I don't think it is exactly fair to judge people for what they did in the past, with today's sensitivities. And in Maxwell's case, things are pretty complicated. I think she was trying to please her man. I would feel better about persecuting him than her. But as you said, we really don't know enough. And what of the girls' parents and the morals they learned.

Puritanism was very harmful to women. Has it raised its ugly head again? Why do we feel shame if it is not because of society? Mae West and prostitutes have argued for a different standard. Are we right to deny them their different understanding of what should be acceptable?
Are the girls victims of sexual experience or society's judgment?
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The bit I have emboldened is such an interesting question Vida.

I would say neither.

The girls are victims of sexual exploitation but also of the times they lived in when those who should have protected them, did not. Instead they took the view that the victims were complicit, even deserving, of the abuse they suffered. I believe that it is a change in attitude towards sexual exploitation which has helped victims to now seek justice.
 
Vida May said:
Puritanism was very harmful to women. Has it raised its ugly head again?
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That is a good point. We will always have grey areas between acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and some need to draw bright lines somewhere in that grey. Things like the age of consent are a good example, the day before that birthday it would be a felony to have sex with an older person, the day after its fine. As we navigate all this we need to do the best we can.

However it seems to me that Maxwell and Epstein were well out of that grey area, no question to me that what they did should be illegal.
 
Warrigal said:
Some of the girls were groomed from the age of 14.

As a former teacher of girls that age, I can say with confidence that their capacity for making good choices is quite underdeveloped. My own daughter had a tendency to decide in the moment without much regard to the consequences.

Any woman (or man) who scouts around for vulnerable teenagers to groom and then serves them up on a massage table to middle aged men is not a victim. She (he) is an enabler and an accomplice to crime.
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QFT
 
The Duke of York cannot provide documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, his lawyers have said, Prince Andrew is also unable to name any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night he was accused of having sex with Virginia Roberts, now Giuffre, in 2001 when she was 17.
 
I didn't follow the trial because it hits close to home as to what I went through as a very young girl.

But as to what I gathered from the news and that there were accusers that were sexually abused and exploited--I find her disgusting and hope she gets enough time to think about and regret what she did and what she contributed to.
 
mellowyellow said:
The Duke of York cannot provide documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, his lawyers have said, Prince Andrew is also unable to name any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night he was accused of having sex with Virginia Roberts, now Giuffre, in 2001 when she was 17.
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Apparently all records (even trivia stuff) are kept for prosperity. I would be very surprised if he had gone anywhere without security especially somewhere as public as Pizza Express.
 
Trish said:
Apparently all records (even trivia stuff) are kept for prosperity. I would be very surprised if he had gone anywhere without security especially somewhere as public as Pizza Express.
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The hosts of the pizza party which was for a fellow pupil of Beatrice... stated that Beatrice did attend , but no-one has any recollection of PA being there.....
There's no way that anyone is going to forget that a Major Royal has dropped their kid off at your private party held in a pizza hut...
 
Trish said:
I was not and will never hold anyone's opinion against them, no matter how much I may disagree. Our individual lives and experience shape our view of the world and, I believe, we would be a lot poorer for it if anyone were to feel that they could not give their honest view. When you think about it, a conversation would get pretty boring very quickly if everyone had the same opinion.

I do not believe for one minute that Maxwell ever had any good will towards the girls she helped recruit and, it is alleged, herself assaulted but, that is my belief and you are of course entitled to yours and I hope you will continue to be true to yourself. :)
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I agree.
 
Alligatorob said:
That is a good point. We will always have grey areas between acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and some need to draw bright lines somewhere in that grey. Things like the age of consent are a good example, the day before that birthday it would be a felony to have sex with an older person, the day after its fine. As we navigate all this we need to do the best we can.

However it seems to me that Maxwell and Epstein were well out of that grey area, no question to me that what they did should be illegal.
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I actually agree with you. I detest sex trafficking!

But I am not sure the girls were unwilling victims? It is a matter of degree. I have heard sex trafficking stories that are truly tragedic. Clearly forcing young men and women to be sex slaves. I just don't think that is the case with Maxwell and Epstein. What they did is wrong, and I guess many rich and powerful men were involved. That may be different from the sex trafficking that denies the victim human rights?

I am more concerned with the possible Puritanical nature that denies female sexuality and responsibility.

How about this if a teenager kills someone, the teenager is treated as an adult. I think that is totally wrong. If we are going to treat the ones who kill like adults, why not the ones who consent to sexual behavior? The difference for me is who is consenting and who is not.
 
mellowyellow said:
The Duke of York cannot provide documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, his lawyers have said, Prince Andrew is also unable to name any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night he was accused of having sex with Virginia Roberts, now Giuffre, in 2001 when she was 17.
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What relevance would not being able to sweat have? Is it supposed to prove something?
 
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