Jesus views on church dogma

David777

David777

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A month ago, I created a first thread below, on science interpretations some Bible Genesis scriptures few have considered.

https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/genesis-2-21-adams-rib.70219/

My own religious views are unique. As a science person, I do not subscribe to magic like dogma of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence, nor that the Bible is inerrant or infallible. Something strongly resisted by denominations because over centuries, that would have undermined their authority if relatively ignorant primitive followers were allowed to decide on their own what to believe or not believe. But in the current science and information era, they have lost their grip on that control and subsequently are bleeding followers heavily.

So here is a second thread that indirectly reflects on the whole Bible as well as Genesis. The Gospel of Mark was the first New Testament gospel written down at 20 to 25 years after Jesus was executed. Scholars hypothesize it was built from oral traditions and an earlier set referred to as "Q" that the other 2 synoptic gospels also used. Mark was a close companion to both St. Peter and St. Paul. In this era, former believers sometimes are critical of Christian churches, their dogma, and interpretations of The Bible. Yet most denominations rigidly believe ALL scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. My own expectation is SOME scripture is indeed (loosely) inspired while some other is not. That makes sense to this person as a god or UIE would have logically allowed such.

So my input today is some scripture from Mark that clearly shows how Jesus had a low opinion of Old Testament Levite priests Jewish dogma. In like manner one might expect the same thing has over centuries infiltrated churches including the NT just as St. Paul warned would happen.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb20/mar/7/1/s_964001
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Mark 7:5 And the Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk in accordance with the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unholy hands?”
Mark 7:6 But He [Jesus] said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7 ‘AND IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.’

Mark 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

Mark 7:10 “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘THE ONE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS CERTAINLY TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; Mark 7:11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ Mark 7:12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; Mark 7:13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Mark 7:14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the person which can defile [morally] him if it goes into him; but the things which come out of the person are what defile the person.”

Mark 7:17 And when He later entered a house, away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him about the parable. Mark 7:18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding as well? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the person from outside cannot defile him, Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thereby He declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:20 And He was saying, “That which comes out of the person, that is what defiles the person.

Mark 7:21 “For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, acts of sexual immorality, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, Mark 7:22 deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.
Mark 7:23 “All these evil things come from within and defile the person.”
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Significantly, he stated "and you do many things such as that", indicating he could have been critical of far more scripture and practices though wisely did not elaborate such in public lest already angry authorities would have ended his journey far sooner. Obviously, the above does bear on inerrancy and infallibility that opens up new interpretations from dogma, I will use on further Genesis threads.
 
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Grampa Don said:
At the risk of looking like an idiot, I guess I don't understand that either.
Click to expand...
No idiocy, a legit quandry
The Word takes study, prayerful study
Comparing text upon text

Jesus views on church dogma​

The stigma of the Jews, at that time, was viewing The Messiah as the savior of the Jewish Nation.
Even the disciples thought accordingly, for a long while

The Pharisees and Sadducees, and all in the priesthood didn't help

Jesus' good news message was, however, for the world, even us Gentiles, as was recorded throughout the old testament, but they couldn't see it....

His words of reprisal were ones full of sorrow and love

​

 
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to my mind, trying to see religion through science, is like trying to see poetry through math.

No computer is ever going to have passion or beauty or love.

Without that, religion means nothing. Religion is all about beauty and love and compassion.

You can't quantify that. It's the wrong tool.
 
That being said...

Pope Francis has a Master's Degree in Chemistry. That literally makes him more knowledgeable about science than something like 95% of the population.

The Vatican science council literally has hundreds of members who are Nobel Prize Winners in science.

If science easily dismissed religion, only a few fringe scientists would believe. That is not the case. We have belief among a wide range of Nobel Prize Winners in science!

A book came out a few years back by Eklund...which stated that belief among professional scientists is about the same as that among the general public.

Benjamin Franklin and Isaac Newton believed in God. Two of the founders of all modern math and science.

In the early 90s, Johns Hopkins did a study among cardiac patients. Two groups, subject group and control group. Subject group was prayed for (not in the room and by parties unknown). Subject group showed significantly better recovery than the control group that was not prayed for.

And hardly the only full professional scientific study indicating the supernatural.

Hypnotism has recognized medical benefits by major health organizations and, I believe, the NIH.

Hypnotism does not come from a scientific discipline. It comes from a shamanistic discipline...tens of thousands of years old.

Hatha Yoga, meditation and acupuncture have all been shown to have proven scientific benefits. All thousands of years old. And all developed by spirituality, not by science.

All science is new. It is a tool in the box. It is not the only tool in the box. And there is no evidence that it is the best tool in the box.

That is just hubris from the scientific community. This is our thing. Therefore our thing is better than every other thing.

But that is just bravado, not quantified truth.

And science changes its beliefs and paradigms in each new generation.

What has scientific "fact" in the 1950s is now considered a joke today.


So, don't place science on some pristine, perfect altar it does not deserve.

It's just one methodology of inquiry. Not the be all and end all of everything.
 
@JonSR77, I read that you do not like how I might be attempting to mix some science with religion. And do not like the notion some Christians will reject accepted dogma though that has been ongoing for centuries resulting in a long list of denomination churches. It reads like you are afraid I'm going to start ranting like some atheists with their long list of anti-religious science arguments. As stated several times on this board, I am practicing church going Christian, a seeker of salvation and eternal life. I just don't believe that some Jewish dogma was interpreted correctly by Levites nor by Christian priests. That someone needs to straighten such out just like Jesus did per above lest many followers continue to leave.

@JonSR77 >>>"...But that is just bravado, not quantified truth. And science changes its beliefs and paradigms in each new generation. What has scientific "fact" in the 1950s is now considered a joke today. So, don't place science on some pristine, perfect altar it does not deserve."

Well that is a poorly posed exaggerated argument I won't bother to address as it is off topic and does not reflect anything I've ever posted. Or maybe that is just baiting me with something easy for me to argue in order to hijack my thread by drawing me that way? You seem to be talking to some imagined atheists you have argued with in the past and not this person.
 
Well, in all honesty, the Pharisees did put their man-made rules and regulations as Gospel and expected everyone to follow them.

The way I see things is, preaching in the open, outside of religious buildings and temples was good enough for Jesus , so it is good enough for me.
 
I think Jesus taught what he personally believed, not what he had been taught. He also tried to simplify things so that the common people could understand.
Something which tends to get overlooked is that Jesus did not spend his early years living in Nazareth. There is evidence to suggest he lived in Egypt and was educated there. Therefore he would have access to other belief systems, not just the Jewish.
 
Grampa Don said:
All so called science facts are provisional based on current data and observations. That's the way science works. Anything else is just speculation.
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Yes, that is exactly it.

Science comes up with an assertion. Then that assertion gets a certain level of backing. That becomes a theorem. The theorem then gets more backing. That theorem then becomes a theory.

And what that means is that their are not really scientific "facts," but agreed upon best "guesses" until new variables arrive and new assessment can be made.

So, the Newtonian world was fact until the quantum world was discovered. And that overthrew some of the previously accepted Newtonian paradigms.
 
David777 said:
...some scripture from Mark that clearly shows how Jesus had a low opinion of Old Testament Levite priests Jewish dogma. In like manner one might expect the same thing has over centuries infiltrated churches including the NT...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark 7:5 And the Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk in accordance with the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unholy hands?”
Mark 7:6 But He [Jesus] said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7 ‘AND IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.’

Mark 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

Mark 7:10 “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘THE ONE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS CERTAINLY TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; Mark 7:11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ Mark 7:12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; Mark 7:13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Mark 7:14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the person which can defile [morally] him if it goes into him; but the things which come out of the person are what defile the person.”

Mark 7:17 And when He later entered a house, away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him about the parable. Mark 7:18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding as well? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the person from outside cannot defile him, Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thereby He declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:20 And He was saying, “That which comes out of the person, that is what defiles the person.

Mark 7:21 “For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, acts of sexual immorality, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, Mark 7:22 deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.
Mark 7:23 “All these evil things come from within and defile the person.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Significantly, he stated "and you do many things such as that", indicating he could have been critical of far more scripture and practices though wisely did not elaborate such in public lest already angry authorities would have ended his journey far sooner. Obviously, the above does bear on inerrancy and infallibility that opens up new interpretations from dogma, I will use on further Genesis threads.
Click to expand...
@David777 , you are talking about a common conflict between “Grace” and the “Law”. Thank you for this excellent and thoughtful thread. My faith based response though is that you have misunderstood the purpose of the Law. You are redefining grace as something other than “God’s benevolence on the undeserving” (Romans 11:6)...as if we must earn our own salvation or “supplement” Christ’s sacrifice. You are following the error of the Pharisees in tacking manmade rituals and traditions onto his doctrine and fail to focus on the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).

When the Bible speaks of “the law,” it refers to the detailed standard God gave to Moses, beginning in Exodus 20 with the Ten Commandments. God’s Law explained His requirements for a holy people and included three categories: civil, ceremonial, and moral laws. The Law was given to separate God’s people from the evil nations around them and to define sin. The Law also clearly demonstrated that no human being could purify himself enough to please God—i.e., the Law revealed our need for a Savior.

By New Testament times, the religious leaders had hijacked the Law and added to it their own rules and traditions. While the Law itself was good, it was weak in that it lacked the power to change a sinful heart (Romans 8:3). Keeping the Law, as interpreted by the Pharisees, had become an oppressive and overwhelming burden (Luke 11:46).

It was into this legalistic climate that Jesus came, and conflict with the hypocritical arbiters of the Law was inevitable. But Jesus, the Lawgiver, said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”. The Law was not evil. It served as a mirror to reveal the condition of a person’s heart says, “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Jesus embodied the perfect balance between grace and the Law.

God has always been full of grace and people have always been saved by faith in God. God did not change between the Old and New Testaments. The same God who gave the Law also gave Jesus (John 3:16). His grace was demonstrated through the Law by providing the sacrificial system to cover sin. Jesus was born “under the law” (Galatians 4:4) and became the final sacrifice to bring the Law to fulfillment and establish the New Covenant (Luke 22:20). Now, everyone who comes to God through Christ is declared righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18; Hebrews 9:15).

The conflict between Jesus and the self-righteous arose immediately. Many who had lived for so long under the Pharisees’ oppressive system eagerly embraced the mercy of Christ and the freedom He offered (Mark 2:15). Some, however, saw this new demonstration of grace as dangerous: what would keep a person from casting off all moral restraint? Paul dealt with this issue in Romans 6: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (verses 1—2). Paul clarified what Jesus had taught: the Law shows us what God wants (holiness), and grace gives us the desire and power to be holy. Rather than trust in the Law to save us, we trust in Christ. We are freed from the Law’s bondage by His once-for-all sacrifice (Romans 7:6; 1 Peter 3:18).

There is no conflict between grace and the Law, properly understood. Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf and offers the power of the Holy Spirit, who motivates a regenerated heart to live in obedience to Him (Matthew 3:8; Acts 1:8; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 1:14). James 2:26 says, “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.” A grace that has the power to save also has the power to motivate a sinful heart toward godliness. Where there is no impulse to be godly, there is no saving faith.

We are saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The keeping of the Law cannot save anyone (Romans 3:20; Titus 3:5). In fact, those who claim righteousness on the basis of their keeping of the Law only think they’re keeping the Law; this was one of Jesus’ main points in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:20–48; see also Luke 18:18–23).

The purpose of the Law was, basically, to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Once we are saved, God desires to glorify Himself through our good works (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10). Therefore, good works follow salvation; they do not precede it.

https://www.gotquestions.org/law-vs-grace.html
 
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Religion is all about beauty and love and compassion.
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Really, Jon? You mean the part about putting to death anyone who doesn't observe the Sabbath as commanded?

And the communal shunning of people who think independently?

And the traditional denial of human rights to women, pretty much across all religions (with one or two exceptions)?

And the declaration that anything that goes against the traditional edicts of religion is "sinful?"

And terrorizing millions of people with threats of a fictitious place called "hell?"

Rose colored glasses, Jon.
 
All of that is taken out of context, can be explained through scripture, cross-referenced, and lacking an understanding of history in the Old Testament and it's various cultural anomalies.

It's also off-topic and over-discussed already. I hope it doesn't derail another faith-based thread or worse yet, start any aggressive arguing. I'm not going to be a part of it.

If you are sincere, I respect that you have these questions on your mind but each one deserves a whole thread of it's own. Why don't you start one or more threads if you want to know the answers? Are your questions sincere?
`
 
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Sunny said:
Really, Jon? You mean the part about putting to death anyone who doesn't observe the Sabbath as commanded?

And the communal shunning of people who think independently?

And the traditional denial of human rights to women, pretty much across all religions (with one or two exceptions)?

And the declaration that anything that goes against the traditional edicts of religion is "sinful?"

And terrorizing millions of people with threats of a fictitious place called "hell?"

Rose colored glasses, Jon.
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Infinity is this,
Infinity is that,
From Infinity, infinity has come into existence.

From infinity, when infinity is taken away,
Infinity remains.

- Vedas
 
JonSR77 said:
Yes, that is exactly it.

Science comes up with an assertion. Then that assertion gets a certain level of backing. That becomes a theorem. The theorem then gets more backing. That theorem then becomes a theory.

And what that means is that their are not really scientific "facts," but agreed upon best "guesses" until new variables arrive and new assessment can be made.

So, the Newtonian world was fact until the quantum world was discovered. And that overthrew some of the previously accepted Newtonian paradigms.
Click to expand...
No. Observations come first. Then come attempts to explain the observations. The attempt that best fits the data is conditionally accepted. If additional data doesn't agree in some way, it's back to square one.

Einstein made some predictions based on measurements of the speed of light. But, until they were verified experimentally, they were only considered as feasible. It turns out he was right as far as we have checked. But, if new data shows something different, it will all be overturned.

Theories about things that can't be verified, like parallel universes or string theory are mere mind games and nothing more.

Science is just an attempt to understand reality rationally. If it conflicts with your religious beliefs, you will have to work that out yourself.
 
Judycat said:
If you don't think God is ever-present in your life, why bother with religion at all. So you can believe God croaked a long time ago or at least lost interest and you'll still be numbered with the chosen? What a deal.
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If it's on your mind, and it is or you wouldn't be asking @Lavinia this: "If you don't think God is ever-present in your life then why bother with religion", then my faith-based answer is this: that's all the more reason to "bother with religion".

Conversely, you can choose not to bother, but then why hang out here? Everyone was created with that choice. And as you sarcastically said, "what a deal"...truer words were never spoken according to my faith. It's a huge deal indeed to me, Lavinia, and our Creator...which you are welcomed not to choose.
`
 
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Judycat said:
If you don't think God is ever-present in your life, why bother with religion at all.
Click to expand...
I suspect some church going people are doing it for social reasons. It's tradition, it's what your family does, it's comforting, and they don't want to become an outcast. And, then there are those like Lavinia who have this little voice in the back of their head that says, "What if this isn't true? But what if it is?" They may have doubts, but they are afraid to commit to them. So, they go through the motions hoping that if it is true it will be enough.

It's tough. I've been there. I finally decided that if there is a God, he/she gave me an inquiring mind. I use it the best I can and trust I will be dealt with fairly. For those like Lara and Gary O, who are passionate believers, I wish them well.
 
Lara said:
If it's on your mind, and it is or you wouldn't be asking @Lavinia this: "If you don't think God is ever-present in your life then why bother with religion", then my faith-based answer is this: that's all the more reason to "bother with religion".

Conversely, you can choose not to bother, but then why hang out here? Everyone was created with that choice. And as you sarcastically said, "what a deal"...truer words were never spoken according to my faith. It's a huge deal indeed to me, Lavinia, and our Creator...which you are welcomed not to choose.
`
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I'm sorry. Your comment struck me as a lot of gobbledygook. It's a big deal to me that God is ever-present. Otherwise you may as well go worship some preacher or prophet or scientist.
 
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