When bad things happen to good people. (Not the book, a philosophical observation)

[Paco Dennis]

It amounts to pretty much the same thing when you take it apart. To say we are responsible for our own happiness puts the pressure right back on the shoulders of an already struggling victim. We are responsible for our ATTITUDE during trying times but that too can be fragile. We live in a world where we have little control over anything. It's difficult to find happiness in such a situation. Compromise, maybe, but happiness is something else. And I am talking about people who are broken by catastrophic life changing events with which they cannot cope anymore.

I had a long contemplation yesterday about "attitude". I am suffering from idiopathic peripheral neuopathy. I am having big mood swings caused by the Meds and/or the pain level. It can flat out kill my being able to function at times. There is just suffering. Nothing anyone can do for me so it is up to me to find a way to live. A good friend once told me to "change my attitude or leave!". ( I was mad at someone, and so i either had to leave or change my attitude. ) So I change it, and was pondering yesterday about my attitude towards being sick. Well, I get angry and it is hard to let go of because it hurts so much. But, I am aware of the attitude and can talk about it rather than make it someone else's problem. I find it very interesting to be aware of my attitude/s as they change throughout the day. Even as I wrtie these words I have an attitude. It is hard to desribe, but at least I am functional. Keeping my attitude positive is the exercise I will employ for the day.

 

[chic]

I had a long contemplation yesterday about "attitude". I am suffering from idiopathic peripheral neuopathy. I am having big mood swings caused by the Meds and/or the pain level. It can flat out kill my being able to function at times. There is just suffering. Nothing anyone can do for me so it is up to me to find a way to live. A good friend once told me to "change my attitude or leave!". ( I was mad at someone, and so i either had to leave or change my attitude. ) So I change it, and was pondering yesterday about my attitude towards being sick. Well, I get angry and it is hard to let go of because it hurts so much. But, I am aware of the attitude and can talk about it rather than make it someone else's problem. I find it very interesting to be aware of my attitude/s as they change throughout the day. Even as I wrtie these words I have an attitude. It is hard to desribe, but at least I am functional. Keeping my attitude positive is the exercise I will employ for the day.

Sounds like a very difficult situation you're in. Neurological issues can be terrible to cope with and one feels so out of control. It's commendable that you are finding ways to cope with all of this. Hugs.

 

[chic]

I would say that is true, in general. But not always ...some things happen that are exceeding hard to handle, and sometimes people can't afford therapy (or find a good therapist, but that is another topic). Sometimes therapy doesn't work.

Sometimes people don't have the tools to be happy, or don't know how they can be. I would be devastated if one of my children died. I know that setting up a scholarship fund or whatever, would not help that. I don't know that people can get over that. Whether they can be happy again, I don't know that either.

For me, it depends on my attitude, relationships, community involvement, spirituality, and on my interests and motivations, and on my work being meaningful to me (money doesn't motivate me, making a positive difference in lives does). It also depends on my needs being met, which for me is best described by Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

For me, the best example of someone deciding to be happy is my cousin. He is wheelchair-bound with Multiple Sclerosis, his wife died 5 years ago of cancer, his only child has had zero contact with family members since her death, and he can no longer live the very physically active life he had, doing things he loved. He is happy. This doesn't mean he doesn't miss his previous life, but he has accepted and done the best with what he has, and enjoys the support of his community and his close friends.

Fortunately, he is financially secure and can afford the help he needs so he can live at home.

Financial security, in my view, is an element of happiness. If you have to live in a tent on the side of the road, can't afford medical care or food, are addicted to drugs and cannot get treatment, have been traumatized or are actively being abused,but can't afford treatment, etc., I don't see how you can be happy.

I was really lucky when I sought cancer treatment, which would have been denied to me, had I not been able to get on both Medicare and Medicaid. Others have their finances destroyed by cancer care, even when they have insurance.

Financial security goes a long way towards helping because it gives a person options and control that the less affluent never have access to. So it's not so much his attitude that is helping as it is his condition. Take the financial security away and most of us would be decidedly less "happy" through condition, not through fault of our own.

 

[Gaer]

A person's actions rebound to him from all fields of creation and for and from innumerable "time".
What greater wonder it would be if people could rise to a state of life where all right could be naturally lived,
if everyone had a broad vision of life and a true and right sense of judgement throughout all lifetimes and all eternity.

As for "IT'S NOT FAIR!" Fair is an annual agricultural display where people congregate and blue ribbons are given out.

 

[WheatenLover]

Financial security goes a long way towards helping because it gives a person options and control that the less affluent never have access to. So it's not so much his attitude that is helping as it is his condition. Take the financial security away and most of us would be decidedly less "happy" through condition, not through fault of our own.

Yes, he is very grateful for his financial security. I am glad his retirement planning worked out. He isn't wealthy, by any means, but he has a pension and social security.

Financial security is definitely the top need in my view.

 

[grahamg]

I haven't really entered into this discussion because as I said earlier in the thread most of the first posts covered the thread subject so well I felt, and I couldn't add anything.

"However, now I've forgotten what everyone said that impressed me so much, I will have a go"!

So far as "bad people" goes, (not the thread topic but bear with me), or "good people doing bad things", (again not the thread topic exactly), there are some things to say here.

When bad things happen to any of us "good people", (not sure what examples to cite, but it could be having a breakdown/depression etc.), then you could argue some seemingly, or normally good people (plus of course the bad eggs!), can choose to try to take advantage of the situation.

I'm not sure whether my example above is the right one to put forward, or a useful example, because the reasons for our breakdowns can be almost unfathomable, even by expert psychologists perhaps, (though they're pretty skilled overall), and what factors help bring someone out of a depression are pretty imponderable too.

However, good people can do some bad things to any of us, " good people", (let's hope were not equally guilty some times! ).

 

[SeniorBen]

Studies conducted by social scientists found that people who feel powerless in the world are more likely to believe conspiracy theories such as the pandemic being faked for profit or politicians running a child sex ring in the basement of a pizza restaurant that doesn't even have a basement. Low self-esteem combined with aberrant behavior can make a person a bully target and negatively affect their decision making skills, and ultimately cause "bad things to happen to good people."

 

[chic]

Studies conducted by social scientists found that people who feel powerless in the world are more likely to believe conspiracy theories such as the pandemic being faked for profit or politicians running a child sex ring in the basement of a pizza restaurant that doesn't even have a basement. Low self-esteem combined with aberrant behavior can make a person a bully target and negatively affect their decision making skills, and ultimately cause "bad things to happen to good people."

What about people who join cults, what category do they fit into?

 

[caroln]

What about people who join cults, what category do they fit into?

I don't know if they would be in any category, per se. I think people join cults because they're lacking something in their lives and some particular cult gives it to them. Friendship, family, a sense of belonging, a way of life maybe.

 

[chic]

I don't know if they would be in any category, per se. I think people join cults because they're lacking something in their lives and some particular cult gives it to them. Friendship, family, a sense of belonging, a way of life maybe.

To be specific are people who join cults and do terrible things to others because the cult says so "Good" people or "Bad" people which are they. Are they completely responsible for anything they do while in the cult?
Yet bad things, very bad things, can happen. Who takes the rap?

 

[Pepper]

To be specific are people who join cults and do terrible things to others because the cult says so "Good" people or "Bad" people. Are they completely responsible for anything they do while in the cult?
I have trouble putting them into either the good or bad categories.

Yes, they are Completely Responsible. Did they leave their brain cells behind or just their will? What about the Manson folks? The prison guards at Auschwitz, etc?

What if the cult abuses children sexually but mama & daddy have been 'transformed?'

They still have their will. They choose not to use it. Throw the book at them!

 

[chic]

Yes, they are Completely Responsible. Did they leave their brain cells behind or just their will? What about the Manson folks? The prison guards at Auschwitz, etc?

What if the cult abuses children sexually but mama & daddy have been 'transformed?'

They still have their will. They choose not to use it. Throw the book at them!

You must remember that isolation is key to a cult's survival and people who disobey or wish to leave face death in doing so.

 

[Sassycakes]

This made me think of my Grandfather my Mom's dad. When he was 90yrs old my Aunt took him to a festival and after a while, she sat him on a bench and went to get him something to eat. As soon as she walked back to the bench he was gone. We went on search parties for over a month, when a young boy running through a field tripped over his body. When he was missing it was a horrible time for the family. This was in 1966 yet I remember it like it was only yesterday.

 

[Pepper]

You must remember that isolation is key to a cult's survival and people who disobey or wish to leave face death in doing so.

It doesn't matter. You can't be forced into doing vicious deeds if they are indeed against your will. It's an avoidance of the real responsibility one should face.

 

[Shalimar]

Brainwashing techniques, combined with torture and drugs, can be powerful inducements to do almost anything. Add threats toward one’s children or spouse, do any of us truly know what we might do? I don’t.

 

[Alligatorob]

Yes, they are Completely Responsible.

I agree, we are all pretty much responsible for everything we do. Or should be anyway.

 

[JaniceM]

Brainwashing techniques, combined with torture and drugs, can be powerful inducements to do almost anything. Add threats toward one’s children or spouse, do any of us truly know what we might do? I don’t.

and if a person is adequately brainwashed, he/she no longer has his/her 'own will.'

 

[chic]

Brainwashing techniques, combined with torture and drugs, can be powerful inducements to do almost anything. Add threats toward one’s children or spouse, do any of us truly know what we might do? I don’t.

This is the thing. When you're threatened with bodily harm you might do something you would never have considered normally. The cult leader is guilty primarily and followers secondarily at most.

 

[chic]

This made me think of my Grandfather my Mom's dad. When he was 90yrs old my Aunt took him to a festival and after a while, she sat him on a bench and went to get him something to eat. As soon as she walked back to the bench he was gone. We went on search parties for over a month, when a young boy running through a field tripped over his body. When he was missing it was a horrible time for the family. This was in 1966 yet I remember it like it was only yesterday.

That's just awful Sassy. Hugs.

 

[David777]

A few excerpts addressing the thread subject, from a long document I'm building up and massaging beyond the thread subject.

------------------
A significant reason why many have left Christian churches is a result of those in desperate situations praying with all the emotions they have and then seemingly getting no help from God. For example, a parent of a young child with a fatal disease, or a person with cancer that only gets worse as months pass, a generous person that gives away most of their income for years to help the needy and then find themselves in the same helpless situation as though all their giving and effort had no consequence for their own situation. A good, loving, helpful, young and healthy, church going person that gets permanently crippled by a drunk driver. And of course, much more that seems to show that being good and doing good deeds has little to no benefits versus those who do monstrous deeds and then seem to live decades enjoying life before being caught if ever.

All this grates at a good person’s sense of fairness. Compounding the issue is never-ending advice from religious people to pray during such troubles. That sets up expectations that praying will help especially if one is sincere and emotional enough. And when such does not, a person is let down with blaming church, religion, and God, easy targets. What one might do is pray to God that other people help them and for understanding while not expecting God will directly intervene. Nor should we expect God will prevent random disasters to befall on individuals like automobile accidents, floods, diseases etc. Instead, one needs to expect such will occur just as readily to the good as the evil despite how that grates against religious attitudes. In other words, God is not in the business of evaluating dangers for myriad people and then deciding to help those that are worthy enough or pray enough but rather seems to allow natural processes to take their course.

In the current era, over population, under employment, and poor economies are rampant in many third world countries giving little hope to people. Much more about this unfairness of course. And all this can readily be used by atheists to claim that there is no god. They can question, if there is a god then he apparently does not care. If there is a god why would he stand by and let such pain, evils, and unfairness happen? Well the answer again is the prime directive of invisibility and we humans have that responsibility alone.

What does God want us to be doing during our lives? What kind of balance between work, fun, and play, recreation, gregarious activities, the joys of eating food, religious activities, performing community service, enjoyment of music and our visual world, helping those less fortunate, and furthering our own individual well-being? Does it make any difference how we balance such as long as we are generous, not selfish, and don’t commit sins? Are we allowed to have wealth, a comfortable home, a content family, and a reasonable level of material wealth, while there are myriad people elsewhere living in the unpleasantness of poverty while breeding like rabbits? Are we supposed to give everything to the poor and humbly follow the ways of Jesus to the letter like St Francis of Assisi? If we always give everything away beyond bare survival levels, how is that useful if we then endure endless struggle just like the poor without any power to influence others? Who really believes if they do so, their lives will by some invisible act of God is going to be just fine and they will be content? Oh, some will tend to declare that will be and then when it does not turn out so, blame shortcomings on the person’s behavior as somehow still flawed with the fact it didn’t happen as proof. If as a practical matter, only 1% that do so ever have a reasonable chance to not have struggle and be happy, is that a reasonable thing to expect people to do?

Truth is life is difficult for the vast majority of us that were not born with a silver spoon in our mouth. And many of us have endured much effort and hard work in careers and education to reach where we are. Is it wrong then to expect we ought to be rewarded for such when others possibly less fortunate or less successful or with less effort did not make the climb such that we should donate much of what we have worked for to those that did not? What motivation is there in that to put in the effort if in the end the reward is no better than that of the lazy and slothful? No, there needs to be some balance between reasonable charity to those who have less and what each of us keeps for our own benefit and enjoyment of life. As one becomes more uniquely wealthy, the more one can afford to give a greater percentage to those that have not.

 

[Pepper]

This is the thing. When you're threatened with bodily harm you might do something you would never have considered normally. The cult leader is guilty primarily and followers secondarily at most.

I agree with that. One is still responsible, IMO and if there is criminal punishment it should be served.

 

[grahamg]

To be specific are people who join cults and do terrible things to others because the cult says so "Good" people or "Bad" people which are they. Are they completely responsible for anything they do while in the cult?
Yet bad things, very bad things, can happen. Who takes the rap?

The law and our legal systems will have considered such things and come up with a number of answers I believe, so not a yes or no situation, (its called "Stockholm Syndrome" isnt it).

 

[WheatenLover]

Brainwashing techniques, combined with torture and drugs, can be powerful inducements to do almost anything. Add threats toward one’s children or spouse, do any of us truly know what we might do? I don’t.

With those powerful inducements, I don't think most people could cope with being able to withstand it all.

I say now that I would do whatever I had to in order to save my husband and children from harm. But only if I could. Torture and drugs make it sound impossible.

I doubt I will ever find out, and I feel deeply angry that anyone would be subjected to that.

 

[WheatenLover]

I agree with that. One is still responsible, IMO and if there is criminal punishment it should be served.

Yeah, but what are they responsible for? Getting in the situation in the first place? I cannot imagine myself in a situation in which I am brainwashed, tortured, and given drugs which keep me from behaving like I ordinarily do. But after all that, what then?

OTOH, I am certain that I am not cult material. If I were, I'm not certain that I wouldn't succumb, perhaps for reasons beyond my control.

 

[Pepper]

Yeah, but what are they responsible for? Getting in the situation in the first place? I cannot imagine myself in a situation in which I am brainwashed, tortured, and given drugs which keep me from behaving like I ordinarily do. But after all that, what then?

OTOH, I am certain that I am not cult material. If I were, I'm not certain that I wouldn't succumb, perhaps for reasons beyond my control.

They are responsible for any illegal activity committed with no time off for a washed brain.