Warrigal
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- Sydney, Australia
You left out teachers and personal care workers for the aged and disabled. Without some level of socialism both slip down the ladders of respect and recompense.
What is socialism?
- Thread starter Irwin
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You left out teachers and personal care workers for the aged and disabled. Without some level of socialism both slip down the ladders of respect and recompense.Of course! BUT . . . it was "sold" to society as benefiting us all. Yet more and more it benefits the capitalist AT THE EXPENSE of the rest of us. Are you ok with that?
Sweden is not a socialist country so it is irrelevant to the conversation. Can you name a country in which the economic system is designed to serve the people and private profit from privately owned business is banned? If not then you don't know of a socialist country. And that's not surprising because there is no socialist country. Even Cuba says they are building socialism but are not "there" yet.
The capitalists and their government in the US work every angle to persuade you that you "live well" and have a good life, but I posted numbers that don't lie. Heck, I have a good life! I own my home outright with no mortgage, have plenty of income, and own stocks and annuities. But I know this is not about me. It's about society as a whole. If my society is suffering, then I'm not happy and shouldn't be. And I think of that as being a patriotic attitude. A flag in the back of a pickup truck with a rifle in the back window isn't patriotic. It's just an idiotic display of belligerent nationalism!
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SeniorBen
Senior Member
The U.S. is partially responsible for the refugee crisis and the migrants coming to America from Venezuela. We helped create the conditions that have resulted in so many fleeing. Venezuela would be a far better place to live if the U.S. would lift economic sanctions on it. Sanctions hurt the ordinary citizens. They have virtually no effect on the oppressive leaders who are the intended targets. Sure, we don't like their oppressive government, and we don't like the drug trade and violence, but the U.S. isn't exactly a model of ethics and equality. Removing sanctions would allow the country's economy to thrive, which will lead to more democratic policies.
sch404
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- Oak Park, Calif.
If you own stocks, that means you are, by definition, a capitalist. An evil, selfish, money grubbing capitalist! Just like me! Just like millions of other people like me who toiled away during their working lives in unstable, oftimes stressful and downright shitty jobs so they could raise their families put a roof over their heads and save a little for their retirement, which they then invested sensibly like any good capitalist would do. All I can say is welcome to the (capitalist) club!
sch404
Member
- Location
- Oak Park, Calif.
This is where you are so mistaken in your argument! It IS about you! To see the evils of capitalism just look in the mirror! I rest my case. Q.E.D.
Timewise 60+
Senior Member
Socialist Countries 2022
Socialist countries are states that have aligned themselves with socialism. There is no criteria or official process for being named a socialist state. All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy. Similarly, countries that appear to follow at least some socialist principles, but do not openly declare themselves socialist countries are not regarded as socialist.
States Currently Governed by Socialist or Communist Parties:
In many cases, while a country may have become more democratic and/or capitalist and removed references to socialism/communism from their constitution, the ruling political party still operates based upon socialist/communist principles: Algeria, Angola, Argentina, Bangladesh, Barbados, Bolivia, Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Mauritius, Mexico, Moldova, Mozambique, Namibia, Mepal, Nicaragua, Peru, Portugal, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Syria, Tanzania, Venezuela, Zambia, and Zimbabwe.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/socialist-countrieshttps://www.bing.com/search?q=socia...650C4C0E911FC6F421CC1B88&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=
Bunk. A capitalist is an owner/controller of a business and a capitalist advocate need not own or control any business. As a person who has lent IRA money to a mutual fund I'm neither. And as a critic of capitalism and advocate of socialism I've made it clear where my loyalties lie.
Do you believe that everyone who pays into Social Security and Medicare is a socialist?
BTW, you altered my quote by adding your own words. On most forums that is a no-no.
Here's the absurdity of the World Population Review 'definition' of socialism ...... it says "All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists .... even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy. Similarly, countries that appear to follow at least some socialist principles, but do not openly declare themselves socialist countries are not regarded as socialist."
In other words, it's all just a matter of opinion. Your opinion is just as valid as mine or Marx or anyone else and so there is no reliable truth based on fact. So N.Korea is democratic because it's in their name, and theft isn't always theft and juries are pointless.
Cute.
Timewise 60+
Senior Member
NO! If you look at the average household income, adjusted for inflation, in the USA going back to the 1960's, the USA population has seen ongoing income growth. Look it up if you doubt it...
I've probably looked it up a couple of dozen times more than you have. Yes, ongoing income growth. Less than 0.33% per year. That loses against inflation, "BIGLY."
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/04/50-years-of-us-wages-in-one-chart/
And I'm sure you've seen this one...
https://www.advisorperspectives.com...d-u-s-household-incomes-a-50-year-perspective
So why misrepresent the true picture?
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sch404
Member
- Location
- Oak Park, Calif.
The only thing that is 'bunk' is your argument! If you own stock, as you have already asserted that you do, you both own and control the 'means of production' the factories which exploit the working class. That is according to both your proxy statement and Karl Marx. I gather you must be fairly new to this.. still trying to win your first argument in the world of blogging? I'll help you any way that I can, but in this case I think you have simply picked the wrong hill to die on.
You're trying to turn this into an argument about me rather than the subject. As an investor in mutual funds through my IRA I have no control over any business and there's no proxy statement. It seems you are the one new to this.
Now, try addressing the subject of the thread.
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ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
Senter, I am anxious to learn from you. Could you please name your top 3 socialist nations — not someone else’s opinion, but YOURS.
Well, I answered that in post #59 and 106, but I'll do it once more for you. And BTW I'm remembering our previous conversations.
Let me help you answer your question for yourself. --What is socialism if not a substitute for capitalism? And what kind of substitute? While every attempt at socialism has its own characteristics, just like every capitalist country has its own characteristics, just as in capitalism we also find a few consistent traits common to every call for "socialism".
Every socialist has called for an end to the private ownership of business for private profit that is the hallmark of capitalism. Every socialist has called for "the liberation of the working class from exploitation by capitalism". So while capitalism is defined by its main trait of private ownership of business for private profit, socialism is defined by its main trait of banning private ownership of business for private profit, and it promises to do this by transparency: by the power of democratic control of conditions in the workplace and in society as a whole. Karl Marx said “Democracy is the road to socialism” because democracy is government of the people, by the people, for the people.
So what countries can you think of that have banned the new formation of new privately-owned businesses and facilitates and empowers workers to run their businesses democratically and collectively? IOW what countries have put the working class in control over the capitalists? The only possibility I can think of is Cuba, but Cuba is so damaged, oppressed, and harmed in every way imaginable by the USA and its embargoes and attacks and attempted assassinations that we can't get much real news out of Cuba as it's all "interpreted" by capitalist agents who only want to harm and terminate this tiny, powerless nation. Similarly in the case of Venezuela.
So what exceptions do you know of?
sch404
Member
- Location
- Oak Park, Calif.
Your fund owns the stocks. Your fund votes the proxies. You own the fund. You have painted yourself into the corner of left/liberal hypocrisy. There is no saving you now. I tried my best. Goodbye
You pay/paid into Social Security and Medicare. You're a socialist. There's a nice hypocrisy corner for you!
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
Exactly what I expected from you, reams of excuses and evasion. You are unable to name a successful thriving socialist country anywhere on the planet because there are none, and I venture to say, never will be.
And that is exactly what I expected from you with your phony "I want to learn from you" crap.
I gave you the facts, but I understand you HAVE TO attack and reject it by pretending whatever is the opposite of what I might say. That's who you are.
And you are causing this thread to degenerate into what the management fears about "politics". But I can deal with this by putting you on "ignore". Bye.
Paco Dennis
SF VIP
- Location
- Mid-Missouri
This news struck me as being THE symbol of Capitalism today. Big corporations merging together to create private monstrosities that control it all. ( What ever these monopolies push/sell). I think Fascism is defined in a similar manner.
Fascism="Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” ― Benito Mussolini
"Kroger Plans to Buy Albertsons Grocery Stores in a Massive Merger
Grocery stores in the US might be about to undergo a dramatic change. Kroger has announced plans to buy Albertsons in a deal it says totals nearly $25 billion.
For:
"This merger advances our commitment to build a more equitable and sustainable food system by expanding our footprint into new geographies to serve more of America with fresh and affordable food and accelerates our position as a more compelling alternative to larger and non-union competitors," Rodney McMullen, Kroger CEO, said in a statement.
Against:
They argue prices could ultimately rise due to the merger and that competition will be driven out of some markets. "There is no reason to allow two of the biggest supermarket chains in the country to merge--especially with food prices already soaring,” said Sarah Miller, Executive Director of the American Economic Liberties Project, an anti-monopoly organization. "With 60% of grocery sales concentrated among just 5 national chains, a Kroger-Albertons deal would squeeze consumers already struggling to afford food, crush workers fighting for fair wages, and destroy independent, community stores. This merger is a cut and dry case of monopoly power, and enforcers should block it.""
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/kroger-albertsons-grocery-stores-merger
Fascism="Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” ― Benito Mussolini
"Kroger Plans to Buy Albertsons Grocery Stores in a Massive Merger
Grocery stores in the US might be about to undergo a dramatic change. Kroger has announced plans to buy Albertsons in a deal it says totals nearly $25 billion.
For:
"This merger advances our commitment to build a more equitable and sustainable food system by expanding our footprint into new geographies to serve more of America with fresh and affordable food and accelerates our position as a more compelling alternative to larger and non-union competitors," Rodney McMullen, Kroger CEO, said in a statement.
Against:
They argue prices could ultimately rise due to the merger and that competition will be driven out of some markets. "There is no reason to allow two of the biggest supermarket chains in the country to merge--especially with food prices already soaring,” said Sarah Miller, Executive Director of the American Economic Liberties Project, an anti-monopoly organization. "With 60% of grocery sales concentrated among just 5 national chains, a Kroger-Albertons deal would squeeze consumers already struggling to afford food, crush workers fighting for fair wages, and destroy independent, community stores. This merger is a cut and dry case of monopoly power, and enforcers should block it.""
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/kroger-albertsons-grocery-stores-merger
SeniorBen
Senior Member
Norway, according to this article, is far more socialist than Venezuela.
"In Norway, the surplus from its oil boom has been used to build a $1 trillion collectively-owned capital fund with the return on that capital going to finance general government spending, including the country’s large welfare state. This capital fund is even colorfully described by the Norwegian government as “the people’s money, owned by everyone, divided equally and for generations to come.”
https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2019/01/27/norway-is-far-more-socialist-than-venezuela/
"In Norway, the surplus from its oil boom has been used to build a $1 trillion collectively-owned capital fund with the return on that capital going to finance general government spending, including the country’s large welfare state. This capital fund is even colorfully described by the Norwegian government as “the people’s money, owned by everyone, divided equally and for generations to come.”
https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2019/01/27/norway-is-far-more-socialist-than-venezuela/
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
And that is exactly what I expected from you. You can‘t name a successful socialist country because there are none. As a college freshman I was honestly enchanted with socialism - untilI I majored in economics. The problem with you socialists is that you always believe you will get it right next time, but of course, you don’t, and we wind up with Cuba, Venezuela, China, North Korea, and the failed Soviet Empire.
SeniorBen
Senior Member
What's your definition of socialism?
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