Alligatorob
SF VIP
Thanks Mike, I will spend a bit of time reading and thinking about these.
Pfizer knew and lied
- Thread starter chic
- Start date
SeniorBen
Senior Member
Here's a rebuttal to that study...
Peer review fail: Vaccine publishes antivax propaganda disguised as “reanalyses” of Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccine clinical trial data
In order portray COVID-19 vaccines as dangerous, Peter Doshi has now managed to get poorly designed and performed “reanalyses” of the clinical trial data used by the FDA to grant emergency use approval of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines published in two reputable journals, The BMJ and Vaccine? What happened?
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/peer-review-fail-vaccine-publishes-antivax-propaganda/
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Mike, thanks for your response and for the earlier post. These are interesting reads. However I will start with my bottom line opinion, which has not changed. The benefits of the vaccines outweigh the potential risk for most people. I believe they do for me, which is why I have had them. My opinions are mostly based on large population studies which have found that both the covid and non-covid death rates are lower. These are studies done by different organizations in different countries using different databases. Here is a table I summarized from a British database (CDC has a much larger database which says the same and similar data is available from other countries.):
Age-standardised mortality rates by vaccination status for all cause deaths, deaths involving COVID-19 and deaths not involving COVID-19, per 100,000 person-years, England, deaths occurring between 1 January 2021 and 31 May 2022
| Vaccination status | Count of deaths | Person-years | Age-standardised mortality rate / 100,000 person-years | Lower confidence limit | Upper confidence limit |
| Unvaccinated | 109,891 | 16,375,484 | 2,338 | 2,323 | 2,352 |
| Ever vaccinated | 531,118 | 38,860,947 | 957 | 955 | 960 |
If there were adverse reactions from the vaccine with risk that exceeded not being vaccinated then you would expect more vaccinated people to die from non-covid causes. Statistics tell us they do not. This does not mean there are no adverse reactions, or even deaths from the vaccines, however those are more than counter balanced by the benefits.
The seatbelt analogy is helpful. There have been documented cases where seatbelts caused deaths, however we have long accepted these risk because we know seatbelts over all reduce risk. More lives are saved than lost by seatbelt use https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/seat-belts .
Some of the links you posted were to good legitimate sources, however they all represent a small part of the process we are going through to better understand the vaccines and make them safer. The opinions expressed are sometimes well founded, but they cannot be taken in isolation without looking at the whole. The post 127 by @SeniorBen show some of why. Since I am not an expert I prefer too look at the big picture, and now it is telling us the vaccines are saving more lives than they are costing. Like seatbelts.
Last edited:
Alligatorob
SF VIP
@Mikeolder I'll try to address you numerous references one by one:
Idaho House Bill 154 was introduced by 2 legislators. It is not law, and I doubt it ever will be. I suspect it is more a political stunt than anything.
I would not listen to Robert Kennedy Jr on this, or much of anything. He is a lawyer, not a doctor or scientist and has long been antivaccinations, not just covid. It seems to me that much of what he does is to raise money and his own visibility, not a search for truth.
I agree Dr Ladapo is a legitimate doctor and a voice to be considered. However I have not see the data to support for his "84 percent "increased risk of cardiac-related death among men 18-39." claim. It seems counter to the published data I have been able to find, and few other professionals appear to agree with him. Still it is a claim worth investigating.
The Great Barrington Declaration is interesting and I find I mostly agree with it. However it says nothing about health risk from vaccinations. It was written over 2 years ago, before many were vaccinated.
On the individual people you mentioned; Geert Vanden Bossche, Vladimir Zelenko, Robert Malone, and Dr. McCullough. I watched some of the videos and read some of the links. Problem is these appear to be just the opinions of individuals, and you can just as easily find differing opinions from equally or better qualified individuals. I could find little or no supporting data at these links. I believe it is better to look for the data than listen to these opinions, just too many of them. And I would agree with you many of these people are "trying to get rich from the subject". Same for both sides...
Not sure who John Campbell is, perhaps the man in the video in your post 119? It doesn't say that I can see. Can you point to his peer reviewed study you mention? He does cite summaries of some data, but without access to the actual data it's hard to understand. I do agree with what he says about the need for good analyses of what he calls harm/benefit. Some of this has been done and is underway, but I believe we need more.
The paper "Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults" you cite in post 124 appears to be a good peer reviewed and data based study. It is however just one such study and a part of the process we are going through to better understand the vaccines. It alone does not counter the larger data picture that the vaccines do not appear to represent more risk than benefit. I appreciated that the author's pointed out "We emphasize that our investigation is preliminary, to point to the need for more involved analysis." I also agree with them where they say "our study points to the need for formal harm-benefit analyses". And as @SeniorBen pointed out there are equally qualified voices who disagree. Sorting all this out will take time, and that process will make the vaccines safer. This is a useful paper, but alone should not be considered definitive.
Mike, I do appreciate the thought you have put into this and you non-confrontational approach.
Idaho House Bill 154 was introduced by 2 legislators. It is not law, and I doubt it ever will be. I suspect it is more a political stunt than anything.
I would not listen to Robert Kennedy Jr on this, or much of anything. He is a lawyer, not a doctor or scientist and has long been antivaccinations, not just covid. It seems to me that much of what he does is to raise money and his own visibility, not a search for truth.
I agree Dr Ladapo is a legitimate doctor and a voice to be considered. However I have not see the data to support for his "84 percent "increased risk of cardiac-related death among men 18-39." claim. It seems counter to the published data I have been able to find, and few other professionals appear to agree with him. Still it is a claim worth investigating.
The Great Barrington Declaration is interesting and I find I mostly agree with it. However it says nothing about health risk from vaccinations. It was written over 2 years ago, before many were vaccinated.
On the individual people you mentioned; Geert Vanden Bossche, Vladimir Zelenko, Robert Malone, and Dr. McCullough. I watched some of the videos and read some of the links. Problem is these appear to be just the opinions of individuals, and you can just as easily find differing opinions from equally or better qualified individuals. I could find little or no supporting data at these links. I believe it is better to look for the data than listen to these opinions, just too many of them. And I would agree with you many of these people are "trying to get rich from the subject". Same for both sides...
Not sure who John Campbell is, perhaps the man in the video in your post 119? It doesn't say that I can see. Can you point to his peer reviewed study you mention? He does cite summaries of some data, but without access to the actual data it's hard to understand. I do agree with what he says about the need for good analyses of what he calls harm/benefit. Some of this has been done and is underway, but I believe we need more.
The paper "Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults" you cite in post 124 appears to be a good peer reviewed and data based study. It is however just one such study and a part of the process we are going through to better understand the vaccines. It alone does not counter the larger data picture that the vaccines do not appear to represent more risk than benefit. I appreciated that the author's pointed out "We emphasize that our investigation is preliminary, to point to the need for more involved analysis." I also agree with them where they say "our study points to the need for formal harm-benefit analyses". And as @SeniorBen pointed out there are equally qualified voices who disagree. Sorting all this out will take time, and that process will make the vaccines safer. This is a useful paper, but alone should not be considered definitive.
Mike, I do appreciate the thought you have put into this and you non-confrontational approach.
Last edited:
boliverchadsworth
Member
just this time??
Alizerine
Senior Member
My son was in an accident as a teenager. He sailed through a stop sign on black ice. The driver's side was crumpled against a tree. He was not wearing a seatbelt and slid to the passenger side. He sustained not a scratch. When the officer asked who was driving, he stepped forward and the officer said "Get outta here". He was convinced that it saved his life. He soon realized that this experience was the exception and began wearing a seatbelt regularly.
If he sustained not a scratch, it wasn't a high-speed impact.
Alizerine
Senior Member
Didn't say it was.
Ladybj
Live, Laugh and Love
- Location
- Somewhere in the USA
Never heard of the Shingles vaccine until a few years ago. I'm neither for or against any vaccines. People do what is best for them. My only concern, please don't force me to do something I don't want to do. I know my body better than any scientist, politician or doctor.
boliverchadsworth
Member
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe they are smarter and more capable than they are. Essentially, low-ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their capabilities.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Interesting comment, and I am sure the effect is real. And probably applies to some extent to all of us non-experts trying to express opinions on the Covid thing... And a lot of other issues on SF.
We all have to make Covid related decisions, no matter our level of competence or incompetence we have to do our best.
In fact almost all of our decisions have to be made without a full understanding of things, its just life.
Dunning–Kruger effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
I'm assuming that you are stating that those who chose not to get vaccinated overestimate their capabilities by thinking they were immune to Covid. Is that what you are alluding to?
Some controlling types who lack confidence in the vaccine will ridicule others who don't do as they do, because it further weakens their confidence in the vaccine.
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
While I have consistently opposed the anti-vaxers, I do believe that in the context of this forum it is best if you offer proof of the error in their argument, rather than simply hurling insults that question their intelligence.
George1959
Senior Member
The same here in Europe. The excess mortality started after the so called vaccination but not before. Never we had so many young people dying from myocarditis. It was the mRNA shots but nothing else. The spike protein induces blood clots. My wife and me are unvaccinated since the beginning and avoided to wear masks since they weaken the immune system. So do the mRNA shots.
Is this all the evidence that is required? John didn't get vaccinated and he's fine. We can stop vaccinating everyone now.
Can you post links or reference any credible documents that support your assertion that "anyone who died did so because of some other reason but not from a virus" When you say "not from a virus" you seem to include not just Covid but all viruses, am I reading that correctly?
Last edited:
I do my utmost to never post ad hominem comments, in my opinion, they just undermine one's credibility. However, I believe that some of the comments here should be accompanied by backup documentation. I could confidently say "I got vaccinated and I didn't get Covid, therefore the vaccine is fully effective". The fact is, I don't know that to be true even though I believe it.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
George, can you point to the data that shows this?
The CDC data does show some cases of myocarditis, but overall death rates lower for vaccinated people than unvaccinated. Is there something in Europe that shows a different story? If so I'd be interested in seeing it.
The only documentation I needed was the fact that several vaccinated friends of mine got Covid anyway. And some became very ill.
The high-pressure & mortality exaggerations were icing on the cake, but they weren't needed to convince me; since I was already familiar with those tactics used to sell flu shots & other useless vaccines.
No vaccine for me; I had Covid 3 months ago. It was basically a 3-day chest cold with coughing for 3 more days. In fact, if not for the positive Covid test, I wouldn't have known it was Covid.
Logic has always worked for me when making health decisions.
Jean-Paul
Member
- Location
- Paris,France
Pfizer knew and lied..
China knew and liedPoliticians knew and lied
Governments knew and lied
Executive officials knew and lied
Fauchi knew and lied
JoBi knew and lied
Where to send the bill for the global panic, shutdowns, useless masks, closed schools, untreated sick?
My estimate ~ 50 T $.
We gladly accept MC/Visa /AmEx.....
Jon
packleader
Member
- Location
- Southern California
Six millions people have died of Covid, and over one million in the US alone. That's enough reason for me to have gotten already my 5th Pfizer shot. And many more millions have the disabling "long Covid" that makes your life miserable. Statistically, the vaccinated ones have a much higher chance of enjoying life than the unvaccinated ones. At 87, I am at a very high risk. So far, I have always been tested negative, and I am trying my best to keep it that way.
The problem is getting valid proof.
Quoting a bunch of doctors who say "Everyone should get vaccinated" is not valid proof. Doctors are not always right & they have their own biases. Most will not jeopardize their careers by criticizing a vaccine their peers & drug companies are pushing.
Ever seen that ad for extended car warranties? Now there are "experts" selling them in the ads:
Some rap star named "Ice T" (hell, yeah....he would know)
Robert Herjavec - that wealthy shark on Shark Tank. (Well, hey....he's got money, so if he says it's a good idea, it must be)
Remember when Dr. Oz spent a whole hour on his show promoting "Green Coffee Extract" for weight loss? He produced several sexy young women who claimed they lost weight by drinking it & not changing their diets. And he's a real.......doctor.
And, of course Nugenics, Thermo Fat Incinerator, & Lipozene are doctor recommended. So, they must work.
They'll say whatever they're paid to say.
Last edited:
hollydolly
SF VIP
- Location
- London England
I personally know of 3 people who have Long Covid... that's a Nasty S-O-B
Alligatorob
SF VIP
Absolutely, true of both sides. There are lots of experts with a huge range of expert opinions out there. Easy to find several to support most any position.
That's why I try to find larger population data based studies, and avoid listening to opinions without hard data.