Gay wedding cake Supreme Court case

[Alligatorob]

Bringing the KKK as an example of why someone would discriminate is from the far end of the spectrum but certainly adds perspective.

You are right it does. But it gives some room for reflection. I realize that I object to a baker refusing the gay couple, but not the Klansman... Doing so requires some kind of line be drawn and that can be hard. Easy to agree on both ends of the spectrum, but the real world has lots of grey area in-between. Not sure where or how to draw that line.

Maybe I'd be wrong denying the Klansman, but I would still do it.

I had a second cousin who owned a restaurant in Louisiana in the 60s. He shut it down rather than be forced to integrate. At the time I was a kid and did not really understand the big picture very well. I remember being swept up in the family's outrage that the government could dictate who a private business had to serve. Now I can see why and that I was wrong back then. Not exactly the same, but an interesting (for me) comparison.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

You are right it does. But it gives some room for reflection. I realize that I object to a baker refusing the gay couple, but not the Klansman... Doing so requires some kind of line be drawn and that can be hard. Easy to agree on both ends of the spectrum, but the real world has lots of grey area in-between. Not sure where or how to draw that line.

Maybe I'd be wrong denying the Klansman, but I would still do it.

I had a second cousin who owned a restaurant in Louisiana in the 60s. He shut it down rather than be forced to integrate. At the time I was a kid and did not really understand the big picture very well. I remember being swept up in the family's outrage that the government could dictate who a private business had to serve. Now I can see why and that I was wrong back then. Not exactly the same, but an interesting (for me) comparison.

Oh me too. I’ve no problem with gays wanting to marry and have a special cake made. They have a right to happiness just like the rest of us and I’ve had plenty of really nice gay friends.

I’d probably have no problem with any type of cultural or ethnic group either. I’m really not prejudice against any HOWEVER I do have a problem with HATE groups ; those who torture and kill others because they consider themselves superior. I’d have a HUGE problem with that which is why I can’t put these in the same category. It’s a different level entirely

 

[Knight]

I’d probably have no problem with any type of cultural or ethnic group either. I’m really not prejudice against any HOWEVER I do have a problem with HATE groups ; those who torture and kill others because they consider themselves superior.

Quote
"As I understand the issue it's about a bake shop owner refusal to make a cake based on religious belief.

In 1 John 3 we are told that we are children of God, born of Him. As a mark of God's great love, we are His children.

If that is true

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

From my previous post I'll add
Would you consider those that deny something as simple as a cake as a hater based on a religious objection?

 

[ohioboy]

As the SC stated:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."

 

[debodun]

A few years ago, a local facility was sued for refusing to host a same-sex wedding reception. This place is about 3 miles form my house.

https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Liberty-Ridge-fighting-its-fine-in-court-6653225.php

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Quote
"As I understand the issue it's about a bake shop owner refusal to make a cake based on religious belief.

In 1 John 3 we are told that we are children of God, born of Him. As a mark of God's great love, we are His children.

If that is true

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

From my previous post I'll add
Would you consider those that deny something as simple as a cake as a hater based on a religious objection?

I’m not sure who you quoted but I can assure you it wasn’t me.

I’ll say this once more; I’m not religious. I also have no idea what the cake maker thought about the couple who wanted the cake.

I never once considered the cake baker a hater. Denying someone a cake isn’t considered an act of hate.

When I stated that I would not have been able to serve a member from a hateful group, I was specifically referring to the KKK or other obvious hate groups who murder others due to their beliefs.

 

[Raddragn]

I don't want the government to be able to force anyone to act against their principles. It would be just as wrong to force a gay baker to make a Christian wedding cake with a cross on it,

If a person has strong enough "principles" that they feel compelled to refuse ANY segment of the public, they should not open a "public" business to ostensibly do business with the "public". Open a "private" membership only business - or some other "work-around". Frankly, I think all of this "refusal of business" is just grandstanding to make life for those whose lifestyle they disapprove of as inconvenient and uncomfortable as possible.
That's one of my biggest problems with ALL religions. Almost all seem to feel an urge to try and force others to live by their beliefs. I don't give a darn who sleeps with who. It's none of my business (or anyone else's).

 

[InTheWoods]

It's worked for years to just go into the one that is your birth gender.

No, it hasn't, for many people. I have a few friends who were basically given inaccurate gender assignments at birth. Most of them would look very out of place, and might stir up trouble, going into the rest room designated for their birth-assigned gender. And there seems no need for this trouble -- nobody ever challenges me when I go into a rest room, why should anybody else get challenged? Has anybody ever tried to check you to see if you should be allowed to relieve yourself there?

The problem with business owners being able to withhold public accommodations based on the demographic identity of the person who wants to purchase the accommodations is that there isn't always a baker across the street, or sometimes the baker across the street also wants to withhold accommodations. For example, in decades past, so many businesses refused to serve people who were Black that it could be practically impossible to travel, conduct business, and so forth. Moreover, the refusal can become its own organized tool, such as when Civic Associations would go after businesses that would serve customers who were Black and attempt to run them out of business.

I think friends should be able to decide whom they want to do things with. But businesses have the power to establish the framework and rules within which we all must live. If no restaurants would serve a given person, then, that person isn't allowed to eat out, right? It's one thing if a choice like this is done on the basis of unruly behavior, or running out on bills, or harassing the other customers. Unfortunate but necessary. But if a choice like this is done just on the basis of race or sex or gender identity or orientation, that's just wrong, and a decent society can't have it. We can't have entire groups of people who can't access business services.

 

[debodun]

Someone from church was telling me that there are now 62 different gender indentities. I said, "Well, that's 60 more than when I was growing up."

I tried to find something definite on this, but it seems every site says a different amount from 7 to 107.

 

[bobcat]

No, it hasn't, for many people. I have a few friends who were basically given inaccurate gender assignments at birth. Most of them would look very out of place, and might stir up trouble, going into the rest room designated for their birth-assigned gender. And there seems no need for this trouble -- nobody ever challenges me when I go into a rest room, why should anybody else get challenged? Has anybody ever tried to check you to see if you should be allowed to relieve yourself there?

The problem with business owners being able to withhold public accommodations based on the demographic identity of the person who wants to purchase the accommodations is that there isn't always a baker across the street, or sometimes the baker across the street also wants to withhold accommodations. For example, in decades past, so many businesses refused to serve people who were Black that it could be practically impossible to travel, conduct business, and so forth. Moreover, the refusal can become its own organized tool, such as when Civic Associations would go after businesses that would serve customers who were Black and attempt to run them out of business.

I think friends should be able to decide whom they want to do things with. But businesses have the power to establish the framework and rules within which we all must live. If no restaurants would serve a given person, then, that person isn't allowed to eat out, right? It's one thing if a choice like this is done on the basis of unruly behavior, or running out on bills, or harassing the other customers. Unfortunate but necessary. But if a choice like this is done just on the basis of race or sex or gender identity or orientation, that's just wrong, and a decent society can't have it. We can't have entire groups of people who can't access business services.

Correction .... yes it did. The first gender reassignment surgery didn't happen in the U.S. until 1950, so it did work for almost 200 years. Perhaps there were a few who felt out of place, but it did work.
As for ones who were given inaccurate gender assignments at birth, I'm not quite sure what that means (Wrong documentation, nearsighted doctor, ???)
I am not arguing that we shouldn't have change. As I said, those who won't change and adapt are like the dinosaurs. But it does get very confusing because there are no clear guidelines anymore. What bathroom does a crossdresser go into. I don't know. Personally I don't really care, but some might.

 

[Alligatorob]

Has anybody ever tried to check you to see if you should be allowed to relieve yourself there?

No, and I hope never to be.

So long as the purpose is relief I'm ok with people choosing whatever bathroom they want...

When I was younger I was in a bar in Mexico. There was what sure looked like a woman to me there as well. At that time, and in that place, the only women who went into Mexican bars were prostitutes. I just assumed she was. The only bathroom was the back wall, after a few beers I got up to relive myself. The "woman" came along side me for the same purpose. When she raised her skirt it was clear that her birth gender did not match her clothing... Other than being shocked a bit it did not bother me. When I got back to the table my Mexican drinking buddies had a good laugh.

Maybe I don't need to say it, but that bar was not in the best part of town...

 

[Knight]

I’m not sure who you quoted but I can assure you it wasn’t me.

I’ll say this once more; I’m not religious. I also have no idea what the cake maker thought about the couple who wanted the cake.

I never once considered the cake baker a hater. Denying someone a cake isn’t considered an act of hate.

When I stated that I would not have been able to serve a member from a hateful group, I was specifically referring to the KKK or other obvious hate groups who murder others due to their beliefs.

Not straying from the Op's post #1 This is about hate of other people based on religious belief.
Given the definition of hater IMO the bake shop owner using religion as the basis for denial does hate.

Opening of post #1.
U.S. Supreme Court Agrees to Hear Anti-LGBTQ Bakery Case

ByJennifer C. Pizer, Chief Legal Officer
JUNE 26, 2017

Today, the U.S. Supreme Court announced it has granted review in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission – the Colorado case involving a Denver bakery that cited religious beliefs and refused to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple contrary to Colorado’s civil rights law.

hater
[ hey-ter ]
a person who has an intense dislike for another person or thing (often used in combination):

Informal. a person who thrives on showing hate toward, criticizing, or belittling other people or things, usually unfairly:

my post #50
Quote
"As I understand the issue it's about a bake shop owner refusal to make a cake based on religious belief.

In 1 John 3 we are told that we are children of God, born of Him. As a mark of God's great love, we are His children.

If that is true

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

Denial based on the bake shop religious belief I'll ask again. for any one posting.

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

 

[Aunt Mavis]

Why not ask for a pie instead?

 

[PeppermintPatty]

If a person has strong enough "principles" that they feel compelled to refuse ANY segment of the public, they should not open a "public" business to ostensibly do business with the "public". Open a "private" membership only business - or some other "work-around". Frankly, I think all of this "refusal of business" is just grandstanding to make life for those whose lifestyle they disapprove of as inconvenient and uncomfortable as possible.
That's one of my biggest problems with ALL religions. Almost all seem to feel an urge to try and force others to live by their beliefs. I don't give a darn who sleeps with who. It's none of my business (or anyone else's).

Great post! I agree with ALL of it.

Not straying from the Op's post #1 This is about hate of other people based on religious belief.
Given the definition of hater IMO the bake shop owner using religion as the basis for denial does hate.

Opening of post #1.
U.S. Supreme Court Agrees to Hear Anti-LGBTQ Bakery Case

ByJennifer C. Pizer, Chief Legal Officer
JUNE 26, 2017

Today, the U.S. Supreme Court announced it has granted review in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission – the Colorado case involving a Denver bakery that cited religious beliefs and refused to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple contrary to Colorado’s civil rights law.

hater
[ hey-ter ]
a person who has an intense dislike for another person or thing (often used in combination):

Informal. a person who thrives on showing hate toward, criticizing, or belittling other people or things, usually unfairly:

my post #50
Quote
"As I understand the issue it's about a bake shop owner refusal to make a cake based on religious belief.

In 1 John 3 we are told that we are children of God, born of Him. As a mark of God's great love, we are His children.

If that is true

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

Denial based on the bake shop religious belief I'll ask again. for any one posting.

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

And I’ll say it again, I don’t know what you are talking about.

Once again. Im not religious so you can keep asking me the same question, I still have no answer for you.

I don’t know what religious beliefs the cake maker has. Maybe he’s homophobic?

I DO NOT KNOW what religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children!

Once again. .. …. I AM NOT RELIGIOUS!
Could you please stop asking me these questions.

I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS!!!

I didn’t even call the cake maker a hater.

 

[Alligatorob]

Why not ask for a pie instead?

I'd settle for pie, right now would be good!

 

[CarolfromTX]

I am so over this debate. If someone doesn’t want to bake your cake, find someone who will. If a gay couple wants a cake, baking it doesn’t mean you have To change your values. So bake the damn cake. Furthermore, I am suspicious that some people might shop around for a baker or caterer who is opposed to gay marriage just for the sake of controversy. Just stop it.

 

[ohioboy]

Furthermore, I am suspicious that some people might shop around for a baker or caterer who is opposed to gay marriage just for the sake of controversy.

Which is what two lesbians did some years back. They went from shop to shop purposely to get denied, then sue for damages. Clearly in my mind so called "Abuse of Process".

 

[seadoug]

Test case?? Do you realize the legal trouble they would be in? Test case? Who paid for the cost of litigation?

Sorry, I was confused. I was thinking of the recent case you cited re: the web designer rather than the maker of the wedding cake. I don't think the web designer has been asked to create a website by any gay clients, so in that case it is a hypothetical.

"Lorie Smith wants to expand her graphic design business, 303 Creative LLC, to include services for couples seeking wedding websites. But Ms. Smith worries that Colorado will use the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act to compel her—in violation of the First Amendment—to create websites celebrating marriages she does not endorse. To clarify her rights, Ms. Smith filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction to prevent the State from forcing her to create websites celebrating marriages that defy her belief that marriage should be reserved to unions between one man and one woman."

 

[ohioboy]

The web designer sued for an Injunction, see case link. It may appear to be a "Test" case to an untrained legal eye (nothing at all personal), due to the fact she was the Plaintiff and the litigator herself. The Injunction sought an order that would have prohibited CO from enforcing its PA law on her, see FN. 6. As you will read, her work brochure stated she will not create designs for any belief contrary to hers, same sex marriage etc. This is the District Court opinion. The 10th Circuit affirmed, the the USSC reversed.

https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20190517f13

 

[JeeperDon]

There was an auto repair shop in town that won't touch one of those new fangled progressive vehicles with an automatic transmission. He says they are just 'not natural, the devil's work.' Manual transmissions only.

 

[Sunny]

Interesting that this issue, big enough to reach the Supreme Court, always seems to be about wedding cakes.

What about venues? I suspect that some venues for weddings and other events have turned away gay couples. I don't remember ever reading about such cases. Why is that? If a gay couple try to book a place and are turned away ("Sorry, we're filled up for the next century") and then the heterosexual couple next door succeed in booking the same place the next day, wouldn't that be a similar type of case?

 

[Capt Lightning]

N.Ireland has often lagged behind the rest of the UK in areas such as LBGT, same sex marriage etc....

The Christian owners of a Northern Ireland bakery have won their appeal in the so-called "gay cake" discrimination case.
The UK's highest court ruled that Ashers bakery's refusal to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage was not discriminatory.
The five justices on the Supreme Court were unanimous in their judgement.
The high-profile dispute began in 2014 when the bakery refused to make a cake with the slogan "Support Gay Marriage".

Daniel and Amy McArthur, who own Ashers Bakery in Belfast, arrive at the Supreme Court in London
The customer, gay rights activist Gareth Lee, sued the company for discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and political beliefs.
But the bakery has always insisted its objection was to the message on the cake, not the customer.
Ashers lost the case and the subsequent appeal, but on Wednesday the firm won its appeal at the Supreme Court.

• The legal battle - which has lasted four-and-a-half years and has cost nearly £500,000 so far - has raised questions over equality and freedom.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

N.Ireland has often lagged behind the rest of the UK in areas such as LBGT, same sex marriage etc....

The Christian owners of a Northern Ireland bakery have won their appeal in the so-called "gay cake" discrimination case.
The UK's highest court ruled that Ashers bakery's refusal to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage was not discriminatory.
The five justices on the Supreme Court were unanimous in their judgement.
The high-profile dispute began in 2014 when the bakery refused to make a cake with the slogan "Support Gay Marriage".

Daniel and Amy McArthur, who own Ashers Bakery in Belfast, arrive at the Supreme Court in London
The customer, gay rights activist Gareth Lee, sued the company for discrimination on the grounds of ****** orientation and political beliefs.
But the bakery has always insisted its objection was to the message on the cake, not the customer.
Ashers lost the case and the subsequent appeal, but on Wednesday the firm won its appeal at the Supreme Court.

• The legal battle - which has lasted four-and-a-half years and has cost nearly £500,000 so far - has raised questions over equality and freedom.

Why on earth would a gay couple want an advertising slogan to ‘support gay marriage’ on their own personal wedding cake?’
The cake is supposed to be something personal for each other as a memento for them to cherish for the rest of their lives.

This case does sound like a couple trying to win a case for financial reasons and to get gay pride exposure.

I’m far from anti gay. Some of my best friends are gay and are very kind and respectful. They just don’t feel the need to flaunt their differences which I certainly appreciate.

In this case, I am on the bakery’s side.

 

[rgp]

If a baker, photographer ..... whom ever, feels that by providing their service to a gay couple is promoting the gay lifestyle , [and they disagree with it]...and chooses not to participate .... it should be their choice not to.

Why must the queers rights be the only rights considered ? What about the rights of the service provider / business owner?

 

[fuzzybuddy]

It's my religious belief not to pay taxes. It's against my religious belief to stop at stop signs. It's my religious belief to rob nonbelievers. It's my religious belief to kill infidels. It's my religious belief to own slaves. It's my religious belief to have sex with children. It's my religious belief to take up arms against my country. It's against my religious beliefs to obey any national laws. It's my religious belief to set fires. It's my religious belief.....................
And how would the Supreme Court rule if a gay black person was refused at the bakery?