The fast-food industry claims minimum wage law is costing jobs. Its numbers are fake

[Knight]

Again, losing jobs that don't meet Minimum wage levels aren't really a loss.

How did you leap from the increase that has caused job loss, to losing jobs that don't meet minimum wage? Do you think while sitting comfortably at your computer those that are unemployed share your thought process that their loss really isn't a loss.

It will probably be 6 months before an accurate number is established for job loss. IMO it would be great if the total tax revenue from the impact of the raise to $20.00 was known.

 

[VaughanJB]

How did you leap from the increase that has caused job loss, to losing jobs that don't meet minimum wage? Do you think while sitting comfortably at your computer those that are unemployed share your thought process that their loss really isn't a loss.

It will probably be 6 months before an accurate number is established for job loss. IMO it would be great if the total tax revenue from the impact of the raise to $20.00 was known.

We're only talking minimum wage jobs - what other jobs do you have in mind?

The tax revenue will be known, but I still can't get an answer from you - what do people who don't earn enough for a minimal existence do? What is the point of working 40-60 hour weeks if you don't earn enough for rent, food, healthcare, etc.?

 

[Knight]

We're only talking minimum wage jobs -

Exactly! Originally that was enough to support a small family. Changes in everything happen. I attribute inflation over the years to min wages not keeping up. Densely populated areas with low paying but above min wage service jobs have an impact. Higher paying manufacturing jobs located in a few states have an impact. There isn't a one reason only for the shift from when it was possible

As for the point of working 40-60 a week. Poverty doesn't mean people lose pride in what they are able to do. Trying & always looking for the opportunity to earn a better wage is not wrong.

If you were single living in an area where there were no higher paying jobs would you do?

If you were married with two children living in an area where there were no higher paying jobs would you do?

 

[Murrmurr]

I'm in California. I rarely eat fast food, but stopped by a Wienerschnitzel the other day to grab a couple corn dogs on my way home from shopping. I paid $11 for 2 corn dogs. No fries, no drink, just the jacketed dogs. 11 bucks.

The price for fast food items has doubled around here. Some franchises have closed, some are closing soon. The ordering at 1 Wendy's and 2 Burger Kings is now automated. A KFC dinner for 5 topped the $30 mark. My granddaughter's fry-cook boyfriend now works 15hrs/week instead of 24.

The buzz around here is that, if the fast food industry had been allowed to increase wages over time - 3 to 5 yrs is usually how it's done - there wouldn't be so many closures and layoffs. Some fast food restaurants could handle the sudden increase, but a lot of 'em couldn't.

Some were still in debt due to covid restrictions, which were severe and expensive for all restaurants here in Cali.

It might be different in Southern Cal. Los Angeles city officials spend aggressively and approach things differently from No-Cal...i.e., they gave Hollywood caterers lots of sneezing room during covid (pun)....maybe they're incentivizing fast food franchisees.

idk, I might look into that.

 

[againstthegrain]

We're only talking minimum wage jobs - what other jobs do you have in mind?

The tax revenue will be known, but I still can't get an answer from you - what do people who don't earn enough for a minimal existence do? What is the point of working 40-60 hour weeks if you don't earn enough for rent, food, healthcare, etc.?

It's abundantly clear, you won't, and it's intentional.

 

[againstthegrain]

Sac Bee - cost of living in Sac and how it relates to FF workers and min wages

.

 

[Murrmurr]

- what do people who don't earn enough for a minimal existence do? What is the point of working 40-60 hour weeks if you don't earn enough for rent, food, healthcare, etc.?

I have a few suggestions:

Learn a trade, enter an apprenticeship program, or attend a community college to prepare for a career. You can do all those on a grant. Some you have to pay back, some you don't...depends on your financial status or your chosen field.

Fast food service jobs are a starting point. But if it's a job you really enjoy, you can work your way up through all the management positions toward owning a franchise.

 

[againstthegrain]

We're only talking minimum wage jobs - what other jobs do you have in mind?

The tax revenue will be known, but I still can't get an answer from you - what do people who don't earn enough for a minimal existence do? What is the point of working 40-60 hour weeks if you don't earn enough for rent, food, healthcare, etc.?

He could probably loan somebody an extra bookstrap or 2.

 

[VaughanJB]

Exactly! Originally that was enough to support a small family. Changes in everything happen. I attribute inflation over the years to min wages not keeping up. Densely populated areas with low paying but above min wage service jobs have an impact. Higher paying manufacturing jobs located in a few states have an impact. There isn't a one reason only for the shift from when it was possible

As for the point of working 40-60 a week. Poverty doesn't mean people lose pride in what they are able to do. Trying & always looking for the opportunity to earn a better wage is not wrong.

If you were single living in an area where there were no higher paying jobs would you do?

If you were married with two children living in an area where there were no higher paying jobs would you do?

Pride in what they're able to do? Enlighten me, when they don't have enough to put a roof over their head, and food in their mouth and the mouths of people they love - what pride is there? McDonald's is a franchise business. It'll adjust, or die. But when you can't afford the burgers you're cooking, what exactly is the point, and where is the pride?

Fortunately, we have government. Government brings business to account through regulation. What would I do if there were no higher paying job? I'd accept minimum wage, which hopes to provide enough to feed my family and put a roof over my head.

Some people need help. Some business people need the law to force them to do the right thing. It's very simple. If the only way for them to make a profit is to impoverish those doing the work, then they're valueless.

 

[VaughanJB]

The buzz around here is that, if the fast food industry had been allowed to increase wages over time - 3 to 5 yrs is usually how it's done - there wouldn't be so many closures and layoffs. Some fast food restaurants could handle the sudden increase, but a lot of 'em couldn't.

It's not like inflation just happened. If there was an incentive for business to do the right thing and share the wealth, it's there every single day of business. The minimum wage in California was too late in coming. There is no more time when homeless and working poor numbers are growing as they are.

 

[VaughanJB]

I have a few suggestions:

Learn a trade, enter an apprenticeship program, or attend a community college to prepare for a career. You can do all those on a grant. Some you have to pay back, some you don't...depends on your financial status or your chosen field.

Fast food service jobs are a starting point. But if it's a job you really enjoy, you can work your way up through all the management positions toward owning a franchise.

Sorry, this is the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality. You and I probably did that. But at all times we were doing it, someone was working minimum wage jobs. They're not as smart, as educated, as able, or as lucky. We can imagine scenarios, but the reality is, anyone working 40 hours a week ought to be able to house and feed themselves. No? Some rise above it and go live in middle-class or upper-class neighborhoods. But there's always a working class - and they deserve a life, even a minimal one.

 

[Knight]

It's abundantly clear, you won't, and it's intentional.

And the poster asking the question offers nothing. It's pretty clear that there is a segment of populations world wide that for whatever reason will not rise from their level of lifestyle.

If the poster asking the question employed hundreds at a wage far above min wage I'd applaud him. But all he has done is promote the idea that if a business can't pay a larger wage then they should not be in business.

How does that help?

 

[dilettante]

Minimum wage - Wikipedia

In the United States, the late 19th-century ideas for favoring a minimum wage also coincided with the eugenics movement. As a consequence, some economists at the time, including Royal Meeker and Henry Rogers Seager, argued for the adoption of a minimum wage not only to support the worker, but to support their desired semi- and skilled laborers while forcing the undesired workers (including the idle, immigrants, women, racial minorities, and the disabled) out of the labor market. The result, over the longer term, would be to limit the nondesired workers' ability to earn money and have families, and thereby, remove them from the economists' ideal society.

 

[Knight]

But there's always a working class - and they deserve a life, even a minimal one.

Minimal
very small in quantity, value, or degree.

That is minimal. Raising the min wage is supposed to eliminate that. But as California resident MurrMurr pointed out the impact is causing lost working hours, business closures & lost jobs.

Rather than complain why not offer employment at a high rate in your business?

 

[VaughanJB]

And the poster asking the question offers nothing. It's pretty clear that there is a segment of populations world wide that for whatever reason will not rise from their level of lifestyle.

If the poster asking the question employed hundreds at a wage far above min wage I'd applaud him. But all he has done is promote the idea that if a business can't pay a larger wage then they should not be in business.

How does that help?

Oh please. And you? You know nothing about me. You wouldn't applaud because you've never asked me about myself, and you simply don't seem to believe minimum wage should be enough to live off.

Minimum wage sets a societal standard on poverty. Speed limits set a societal standard for driving. Get it?

You've offered nothing whatsoever as a solution to the problem of people wanting and willing to work, yet think it should provide enough for a roof over their head and food. Nothing. Just tired rhetoric. There are minimum wage levels because if they can't pay for themselves, we - as tax payers - have to pay for them. Instead, the burden is with those wanting to profit from their labor.

At this point, I don't think you're really thinking this through. You're set. No answers, just excuses. This is essentially circling the drain. Worse, you're moving the goalposts. You have yet to answer the central concern - if you can't earn enough to eat, what do you do? Further, do we, as a society, care? As long as we can get $1 burgers, do we care that the person serving us can't afford a home or food?

 

[VaughanJB]

Minimal
very small in quantity, value, or degree.

That is minimal. Raising the min wage is supposed to eliminate that. But as California resident MurrMurr pointed out the impact is causing lost working hours, business closures & lost jobs.

Rather than complain why not offer employment at a high rate in your business?

Nope. Nice try. Wrong. Very very wrong.

Minimal - a roof and enough food. How dare people expect so much!

How about, effectively, outlawing slavery, and having a minimum wage? Simple.

See, others will attempt to fix the problem, with or without you. You're arguing for less than minimum wage, for some reason..........

 

[Murrmurr]

Sorry, this is the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality. You and I probably did that. But at all times we were doing it, someone was working minimum wage jobs. They're not as smart, as educated, as able, or as lucky. We can imagine scenarios, but the reality is, anyone working 40 hours a week ought to be able to house and feed themselves. No? Some rise above it and go live in middle-class or upper-class neighborhoods. But there's always a working class - and they deserve a life, even a minimal one.

Who's not as smart? Are you suggesting that a kid working at a McDonald's isn't as smart as someone else?

Let's say a kid with an IQ below 80 is given a job as a fry-cook....he's also getting a disability check and full medical and dental benefits. He can also get free training in specific skills. In some states, he could be trained as a plumber or cabinet-maker assistant, for example.

But let's say we're talking about a kid with an average IQ who has to earn his own way. There are grant loans that pay tuition to career collages, and skills training and apprenticeships programs. Some you have to pay back, some are paid back by your new employer, and some you don't have to pay back at all if you don't find work within a year or whatever.

Why should the minimum wage for a kid who assembles hamburgers exceed or even match the minimum wage of a young adult who completed a year or two of training or college to become an auto technician, a pipe-fitter, physician's assistant, social worker, teacher's aid, or other profession?

Assembling fast food is not a career unless you strive to get into management or own your own fast food franchise. And what's the minimum wage for a kid who works his way up to shift manager at a fast food restaurant?... a dollar more an hour? Is even 2 dollars more enough incentive to show discipline and take on those responsibilities when a guy can cover the rent just slinging burgers for 35-40hrs/wk?

 

[againstthegrain]

Who's not as smart? Are you suggesting that a kid working at a McDonald's isn't as smart as someone else?

Let's say a kid with an IQ below 80 is given a job as a fry-cook....he's also getting a disability check and full medical and dental benefits. He can also get free training in specific skills. In some states, he could be trained as a plumber or cabinet-maker assistant, for example.

But let's say we're talking about a kid with an average IQ who has to earn his own way. There are grant loans that pay tuition to career collages, and skills training and apprenticeships programs. Some you have to pay back, some are paid back by your new employer, and some you don't have to pay back at all if you don't find work within a year or whatever.

Why should the minimum wage for a kid who assembles hamburgers exceed or even match the minimum wage of a young adult who completed a year or two of training or college to become an auto technician, a pipe-fitter, physician's assistant, social worker, teacher's aid, or other profession?

Assembling fast food is not a career unless you strive to get into management or own your own fast food franchise. And what's the minimum wage for a kid who works his way up to shift manager at a fast food restaurant?... a dollar more an hour? Is even 2 dollars more enough incentive to show discipline and take on those responsibilities when a guy can cover the rent just slinging burgers for 35-40hrs/wk?

I didn't realize people age-out of being a fast food worker and fast food places are only open from 3pm to 8pm when school kids are available to work.

As for comparing other jobs vs ff work perhaps a full consideration of the benefits and future prospects of same would provide context for why $20/hr for a dead end, as-needed schedule, not full time, NO BENEFIT jobs could be the paid the same or close to the same hourly rate as other jobs.

 

[Murrmurr]

It's not like inflation just happened. If there was an incentive for business to do the right thing and share the wealth, it's there every single day of business. The minimum wage in California was too late in coming. There is no more time when homeless and working poor numbers are growing as they are.

California's Big Businesses are California's major employers.

But we're talking about fast food franchises, right? A franchise owner employs only as many people as s/he can afford and still earn a living wage him/herself. Do you really believe that franchise owners are going to hire the homeless? I can assure you, that isn't going to happen. Maybe a few good-hearted franchise owners here and there will hire 1 or 2, but it isn't going to be a thing. The wage hike will not solve homelessness, it will put the hurt on franchise owners.

Will it prevent homelessness? It's impossible to say, but I'll guess: No, Not Significantly. And it may even increase homelessness, because, despite what that article says, fast food places around here are closing. Kids are losing jobs.

 

[Murrmurr]

I didn't realize people age-out of being a fast food worker and fast food places are only open from 3pm to 8pm when school kids are available to work.

As for comparing other jobs vs ff work perhaps a full consideration of the benefits and future prospects of same would provide context for why $20/hr for a dead end, as-needed schedule, not full time, NO BENEFIT jobs could be the paid the same or close to the same hourly rate as other jobs.

Fast food places are generally open from 6am til midnight, and some drive-thru windows stay open til 2am.

I don't quite understand that last bit. A newly trained PA, for example, doesn't get any benefits until after a probationary period of employment. Usually 3 to 6 months. They earn those benefits, just like they earned that job.

 

[againstthegrain]

t

 

[VaughanJB]

Who's not as smart? Are you suggesting that a kid working at a McDonald's isn't as smart as someone else?

Let's say a kid with an IQ below 80 is given a job as a fry-cook....he's also getting a disability check and full medical and dental benefits. He can also get free training in specific skills. In some states, he could be trained as a plumber or cabinet-maker assistant, for example.

But let's say we're talking about a kid with an average IQ who has to earn his own way. There are grant loans that pay tuition to career collages, and skills training and apprenticeships programs. Some you have to pay back, some are paid back by your new employer, and some you don't have to pay back at all if you don't find work within a year or whatever.

Why should the minimum wage for a kid who assembles hamburgers exceed or even match the minimum wage of a young adult who completed a year or two of training or college to become an auto technician, a pipe-fitter, physician's assistant, social worker, teacher's aid, or other profession?

Assembling fast food is not a career unless you strive to get into management or own your own fast food franchise. And what's the minimum wage for a kid who works his way up to shift manager at a fast food restaurant?... a dollar more an hour? Is even 2 dollars more enough incentive to show discipline and take on those responsibilities when a guy can cover the rent just slinging burgers for 35-40hrs/wk?

The topic here is fast food and the minimum wage. It's not how smart someone is. It's not about IQ's. It's not about grants, pipe-fitters, and teachers aids. None of that matters in this context. The quote you provided was simply a list of possible reasons. It's not exhaustive, absolute, or definite. It's also not aimed at "kids" who have different concerns than married couples.

Here is what matters - the question that needs answering: What is the point of a person working a 40 hour week, when their wages won't allow them to have housing, sufficient food, and health care? And if we allow companies to profit from these people, how are they going to close the gap? Who do you think pays the deficit?

In the most developed country on the entire planet, we're still asking these questions. Seriously. People are actually concerned that they can't buy a $1 burger anymore.

This is 2024, not 1964. The economy has changed. The market has changed with the times, and without a minimum wage you're simply creating the working poor who can't house themselves. We have high numbers of people living in ten tents, cars, vans. They work, but don't earn enough to have a normal life. The model fast food has used no longer works. They either change, or die. Like every other business.

Perhaps if we were just talking about "kids" there would be more nuance - but we're not. Besides, as has been stated more than once, the minimum wage is aged graded to an extent.

I'll end with this set of facts:

McDonald's annual net income/loss for 2023 was $8.469B, a 37.09% increase from 2022.
McDonald's annual net income/loss for 2022 was $6.177B, a 18.13% decline from 2021.
McDonald's annual net income/loss for 2021 was $7.545B, a 59.5% increase from 2020.

 

[VaughanJB]

California's Big Businesses are California's major employers.

But we're talking about fast food franchises, right? A franchise owner employs only as many people as s/he can afford and still earn a living wage him/herself. Do you really believe that franchise owners are going to hire the homeless? I can assure you, that isn't going to happen. Maybe a few good-hearted franchise owners here and there will hire 1 or 2, but it isn't going to be a thing. The wage hike will not solve homelessness, it will put the hurt on franchise owners.

Will it prevent homelessness? It's impossible to say, but I'll guess: No, Not Significantly. And it may even increase homelessness, because, despite what that article says, fast food places around here are closing. Kids are losing jobs.

Sorry, but I don't think anyone has claimed this will end homelessness. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Why are we averse to risk in business? Why does the business have no responsibility? I mean, oh, those poor franchise owners.

This is about paying people enough to house and feed themselves. That's it. Doing so won't solve the world's ills. It'll only help those who find themselves having to work at a the lowest end of the financial spectrum. What it will help alleviate is the burden of the working poor.

Will it help prevent homelessness? You think "no". I say, in certain circumstances, Yes. Unless you think that someone, working 40 hours a week and living in their car, would choose NOT to rent a room or apartment even if they could afford it. Still, you seem to be using the word "homelessness" are meaning ALL homelessness. That's clearly not applicable here - since we're talking people who are working. This is about a fair wage for a fair job done.

Again - if the business can't pay enough for someone to survive out there, then it closes. As it should. If the franchise owner can't make a profit, they close. The business is no good, it makes a loss, it's over.

I'm curious now.... I mean, do you think there should be any limits on pay? Like, do you think McDonald's should be able to pay .50 an hour?

 

[WhatInThe]

Over the last month 2 iconic fast food locations in California closed citing wage increases to the $20 minimum. There were other expense increases including rent and corporate mandated upgrades but that's the thing especially with franchise owners margins are thin and there are other expenses.

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/iconic-hollywood-fast-food-restaurant-closes-for-good/

https://www.breezyscroll.com/world/...ter-30-years-amid-20-minimum-wage-impact/amp/

Every industry and job is different as to what one can actually get out of it. I know people who didn't realize they had to really learn their craft in the restaurant industry until years later. When they did wound up working in $300 plus a night tip restaurants. They learned every aspect about cooking, the foods especially the meats, bar tending which not only made them valuable to employers but many customers like to know about their food and drinks. It also helped them trouble shoot a problem. There are fast workers out that can't even ring a gift card correctly.

That minimum wage in California should come with caveats with different skills like cashier, cook etc and a degree of competency just like many union jobs. And come after time. Like a union job or apprenticeship. It's one thing for the state protect employees from safety issues or discrimination but they shouldn't be acting as a job applicant/new employee's agent.

 

[VaughanJB]

Over the last month 2 iconic fast food locations in California closed citing wage increases to the $20 minimum. There were other expense increases including rent and corporate mandated upgrades but that's the thing especially with franchise owners margins are thin and there are other expenses.

So, a lot of expenses went up - but they cited a rise in the minimum wage are the reason they closed? Why does this story play down the other reasons?

That minimum wage in California should come with caveats with different skills like cashier, cook etc and a degree of competency just like many union jobs. And come after time. Like a union job or apprenticeship. It's one thing for the state protect employees from safety issues or discrimination but they shouldn't be acting as a job applicant/new employee's agent.

So called "Learners" in California don't get the full Minimum Wage. They get 85% of it for 160 hours worked.

Further - and to quote:

Minors in California cannot work for unlimited hours. The California child labor law has limited working hours for minors as follows:

• 14-15 age bracket- For those who have reached 7th grade, they can work during school days. They are available for 3 hours in a day and a maximum of 18 hours in a week during school days. During holidays and summer vacation, they can work for a maximum of 8 hours a day and 40 hours in a week.
• 16-17 age bracket- They can work for 4 hours in a day and 48 hours in a week during school days. When school is not in session, they can work for 8 hours a day and 48 hours in a week.

So it all factors in.

That minimum wage in California should come with caveats with different skills like cashier, cook etc and a degree of competency just like many union jobs. And come after time. Like a union job or apprenticeship. It's one thing for the state protect employees from safety issues or discrimination but they shouldn't be acting as a job applicant/new employee's agent.

What do you think the minimum wage is for? One of it's goals is to end in-work poverty. That is, to set a limit under which a business cannot go. Which instances, for you, would make in work poverty acceptable? Especially given that if someone doesn't earn enough, they are far more likely to get help from YOUR tax dollars. My question would be, is it better to ensure a business pays a minimum, or do you prefer to support the business through giving your tax dollars to these workers?