Legal definition of a woman

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Warrigal said:
I think you are talking about adult professional sports. What about children's amateur sports? Could there not be a place for any child regardless of their gender identification? Where is the harm?
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you know, never in all my years have I ever had need to make decision like that. Truthfully I do not know.I would guess, up to the parents of that school.
 

I do not think I have ever told this story of mine on this forum. Before retiring I worked part time for large pharmacy. I was working the front end, as cashier at the time. A short, round, close to bald -and hairy man came thru my line. He was dressed in a tutu like dress carrying a small pink purse. Seems he had a bow on his head.
As I finished bagging up his purchases, without thinking - said - thank you madame. have a nice day. His smile was huge, he almost twinkled as he went thru the front door. Lolo guess I made Her day;)
 
Jeni said:
I think it would be great to just live and let live.

What I see in the pronoun fight or insistence to be in women's bathroom or locker rooms is more abut them wanting attention. Many like to be upset and make a big deal about someone saying " mam or sir. " This is to try to make a scene. It is not about the accidental missed pronoun it is attention seeking behavior. The bathroom situation in many places ( in US) is simple use the single bathroom in many public places deemed as either family or disabled restroom.

The sports thing is just a fact that it is unfair and taking records or awards and room on a team or scholarships from women. If sports is something they feel they must do ......then let them compete in single person sports like track but their time is for their own self esteem but do not count for medals or placement in any competition. That will not be enough because it is about making a scene and calling attention to themselves it is not about their self esteem it is about pushing their choice on to others ......and some seem to be unhappy unless they offend others.
Unfortunately like everything else a few bad examples made this worse then it ever had to be.
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But it is not "live and let live". Adults are pushing their agendas.
 

VaughanJB said:
I have been careful to acknowledge those born with genetic abnormalities. On the other hand, let's not pretend that the issue we're talking about here is about them. They are people who come into this work with a physical issue, and that issue needs addressing. I actually think it would do more harm to not treat them as early as possible, it would cause more psychological problems if you made them wait until they were 18.

It is those that elect to have transition surgery through purely psychological issues that are the issue. And not even that, but how we as the general populace react to the situation. Let's be honest, for most of us this is purely an intellectual exercise. I don't (knowingly) know any transsexual people, so the argument is always somewhat abstract.

This also has a wider context. For example, take the case of Martina Adam (now with a changed name of Malaika Kubwa). Martina was born, and lived, as a white woman. Then, at the age of 37 years, she decided to begin injecting a course of Melanotan. This, in effect, darkened her skin to the extent that she passes for being an African American. This move is permanent and cannot be changed, she can never present as a white woman again.

So - is she black, or white? If repatriation were a thing, would she qualify? If not, why not? Should she come under the various privileges afforded people of color? How is she seen under, for example, the Civil Rights Act?

Where does this blurring of genetics end?
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There are plenty of stories about white presenting themselves as black.
 
Twostep said:
Manufactured? Not a great deal?
And please let us not forget the sexual assaults ending in homocide.
What do you need to know about sexual assault on college campuses?
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I'm thinking about these highly hyped, fraudulent cases -- UVA fraternity rape, Duke lacrosse team, "mattress girl" at Columbia, all of which were eventually shot down.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...rsity-virginia-dean-takes-rolling-stone-trial

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/columns/story?id=2833457

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/...cast-as-a-rapist-in-mattress-art-project.html

Real sexual assault is a terrible thing, of course. I'm just pointing out that the fever has died down a bit.
 
RedAlert76 said:
you know, never in all my years have I ever had need to make decision like that. Truthfully I do not know.I would guess, up to the parents of that school.
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No, it is not up to the parents. That is what most of the uproar is about. I have kids, teachers and local government want to tell me how they will be raised but I am responsible for them and get to pay their braces.
 
Irishdude said:
I'm thinking about these highly hyped, fraudulent cases -- UVA fraternity rape, Duke lacrosse team, "mattress girl" at Columbia, all of which were eventually shot down.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...rsity-virginia-dean-takes-rolling-stone-trial

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/columns/story?id=2833457

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/...cast-as-a-rapist-in-mattress-art-project.html

Real sexual assault is a terrible thing, of course. I'm just pointing out that the fever has died down a bit.
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Pardon me but "fever has toned down a bit"? Please volunteer at a women's shelter. This forum is not a platform for graphic pictures or interview transcripts.
 
Twostep said:
Pardon me but "fever has toned down a bit"? Please volunteer at a women's shelter. This forum is not a platform for graphic pictures or interview transcripts.
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There was a lot of hype about campus sexual assault from 2007 to 2015 or so, typified by these cases. Rape is a heinous crime and I'm not downplaying it. But in 2014 a crazy woman claimed to have been raped by a whole fraternity at my alma mater. She created untold havoc and ruined many lives, and then it turned out she made the whole thing up.
 
old4joe said:
Again, as someone mentioned earlier, there are cases where babies and adolescents poses both sex gonads. However, usually, corrective surgery will make one sex prominent by the person's teen years. I think these issues should apply to 18 and over only and if there's a medical reason for it, the person will most likely have one or the other gender medically prominent by the time they're an adult with the problem settled.

However, if you're an adult who chooses to switch sides ... well, all the power to ya, but, IMO those people shouldn't be involved in professional sporting competitions.

Nevertheless, this is a difficult and not-so-easy topic for one big reason -- let's not forget there's 8 billion of us now on Earth (only 2 billion of us 100 years ago). It's approximated that we finally crossed into a pop of over 1billiion in 1804. There's 2 billion more humans (and possibly even new gender malformations or chromosomal anomalies) in the next 30 or so years.

In 1987, we reached a global population of 5 billion and will double that number to 10 billion people on Earth by 2060 (less than 100 years later). That's an incredible amount of people and differentiation potential. Just trying to keep things in perspective.
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The UN projects a peak of 10.4 billion by 2080, then decline. Others project a peak of 9 million by 2050, then decline. Population decline has serious consequences as well, although it's not as scary as population increase.

Global population could peak below 9 billion in 2050s - Earth4All
 
Irishdude said:
There was a lot of hype about campus sexual assault from 2007 to 2015 or so, typified by these cases. Rape is a heinous crime and I'm not downplaying it. But in 2014 a crazy woman claimed to have been raped by a whole fraternity at my alma mater. She created untold havoc and ruined many lives, and then it turned out she made the whole thing up.
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That makes for one and it is personal to you.
 
Doste said:
I can still just about count on the fingers (and thumb) of one hand the number of trans people I've ever met. Four of those five were through science fiction fandom.
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I'm not sure what you mean by science fiction fandom.

Yes, transgender people are quite rare - but I am surprised nobody has met any at all.

I can think of 4 people I have known over the years who have transitioned and lived as opposite gender in my country town.
 
I am pro-trans because I believe everyone should be accepted for who they are as long as they are not harming others in any way. That said, hubby hired a trans woman as his assistant manager when he managed a retail store for a non-profit organization. At first, she was a hard worker but toward the end she really started to disrespect his authority because I believe she felt she could play the "trans" card if he complained about her performance. It wasn't a good experience.
 
Who_so_ever said:
I had never heard of Martina Adam. I googled. That individual has a whole lot of issues that need dealt with.....
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Yeah, it's a bit of a................ situation. But science and medicine are enabling new paradigms. What do we make of it? People are making weird choices. There's a bunch of people who inject "Synthol" into their muscle (it's some kind of oil) which gives the impression of having huge muscles, without having to do any of the work. There are women getting breast implants that are other-worldly (Martina is another case, they could never be natural). Body builders are dying in their 30's because of their use of steroids. There are people getting plastic surgery to look like cartoon characters (there's a guy who wants to look like Barbies boyfriend, Ken, and a woman who wants to be the lady from Roger Rabbit. She had ribs removed to get the waist!)

For me, the world has gone mad. From tattooed eyeballs, to split tongues, to changing skin color (or not changing skin color but declaring you're black), I can't make heads nor tales of it. But then, it's not my world, nor is it a world I grew up in. It's all weird to me.
 
January said:
yes a trans person is biologically their birth sex. ( did anyone dispute that?)
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What they did was to play a game of semantics. You don't generally hear trans people talking about biological sex. Instead, they talk about "gender". It's a neat trick, but it is rendered irrelevant when you use the words "biological sex". I don't care about gender designation, and I don't accept it's a synonym of "sex". But you can easily find many arguments that gender is the thing, and gender is a term that is fluid.

January said:
But it isn't that hard to understand some people feel they don't belong in their birth gender.
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I applaud you, because for me it IS difficult. What is it they're not belonging to - social expectation of what a man is? Males come in all shapes and sizes, and with different ideas and actions. But hating your *******s? I can't relate to that, and I don't fully understand it.

January said:
I see it as becoming, as far as is medically/ surgically/ socially possible the opposite gender to that you were born as.
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And that, is weird within itself. As I have said, I have enjoyed the female form for all of my life (well, you know, let's assume "life" starts at puberty.) Women are incredible, beautiful, and as a man, a little strange. I know what I like, but that may not be what women think of themselves (if that makes sense). I'm old fashioned.

But to be a woman, and believe you're a man....... that's not something I understand. I can hear the statements, I can appreciate their claims, but I can't get away from - a trans man isn't a man. I don't have any issue with a woman wanting to live as a man, but to insist that *I* should consider them a male, that's problematic. When it comes to trans women (here we go, entering the danger zone) as a heterosexual male, if I found out someone I was dating was Trans..... that would be a huge problem. I would not be happy finding a woman I was dating was born a male. It's independent of how they look.

So a question to you. If you were intimate with someone and they portrayed themselves as one sex, but it turned out they were born another sex, would that matter to you? Would it matter if you found out before, or after, intimacy?

January said:
I'm not seeing how Martina Adam relates to transgender.
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Well, it's all a matter of being what you declare, rather than who you born as. Martina declares herself as being a black woman. However, she was born white, and she only presents as black due to a drug regime. At what point does psychology trump biology?

January said:
Perhaps that is the problem - you are basing your view on extreme examples portrayed in the media and not on ordinary people who have transitioned without fanfare or doing the attention seeking stuff some posters seem to think is represntative of all transgender people.
I know transgendered people are relatively rare - but am surprised you have not met any at all in real life. Or perhaps you have and didn't realise it, who knows.
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Okay, so I have one instance when I came across it. I was working at Lloyds of London, a financial institution. One person transitioned. He (a trans woman) worked at the other end of the building. I never saw or met them. I had no interaction. But - it would come up in conversation with others. Such as "have you seen X, they've come in as a woman!" Now, the person was brave to suddenly come in that way. On the other hand, how do you expect others to react?
 
VaughanJB said:
What they did was to play a game of semantics. You don't generally hear trans people talking about biological sex. Instead, they talk about "gender". It's a neat trick, but it is rendered irrelevant when you use the words "biological sex". I don't care about gender designation, and I don't accept it's a synonym of "sex". But you can easily find many arguments that gender is the thing, and gender is a term that is fluid.

No it isn't semantics, biological sex and gender are not the same thing.

I applaud you, because for me it IS difficult. What is it they're not belonging to - social expectation of what a man is? Males come in all shapes and sizes, and with different ideas and actions. But hating your *******s? I can't relate to that, and I don't fully understand it.
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Not sure what is so difficult. And not sure what you asrerix word is suppossed to be, but nobody is hating anything.
And you don't have to understand it - it isn't about you.
Surely you can accept other people feel this way whether you relate to it personally or not. Doesn't take that much empathy.
VaughanJB said:
And that, is weird within itself. As I have said, I have enjoyed the female form for all of my life (well, you know, let's assume "life" starts at puberty.) Women are incredible, beautiful, and as a man, a little strange. I know what I like, but that may not be what women think of themselves (if that makes sense). I'm old fashioned.

But to be a woman, and believe you're a man....... that's not something I understand. I can hear the statements, I can appreciate their claims, but I can't get away from - a trans man isn't a man. I don't have any issue with a woman wanting to live as a man, but to insist that *I* should consider them a male, that's problematic. When it comes to trans women (here we go, entering the danger zone) as a heterosexual male, if I found out someone I was dating was Trans..... that would be a huge problem. I would not be happy finding a woman I was dating was born a male. It's independent of how they look.

So a question to you. If you were intimate with someone and they portrayed themselves as one sex, but it turned out they were born another sex, would that matter to you? Would it matter if you found out before, or after, intimacy?

Yes it would matter to me and it is fine if it matters to you. We can all have our preferences and our types we would date, nobody is saying otherwise. I would expect somebody to be upfront about any major life event like that just as I would about any other major issue.
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VaughanJB said:
Well, it's all a matter of being what you declare, rather than who you born as. Martina declares herself as being a black woman. However, she was born white, and she only presents as black due to a drug regime. At what point does psychology trump biology?
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Not digressing into race identification issues - start another thread if you want to discuss that. But not using it as a red herring in this one.
VaughanJB said:
Okay, so I have one instance when I came across it. I was working at Lloyds of London, a financial institution. One person transitioned. He (a trans woman) worked at the other end of the building. I never saw or met them. I had no interaction. But - it would come up in conversation with others. Such as "have you seen X, they've come in as a woman!" Now, the person was brave to suddenly come in that way. On the other hand, how do you expect others to react?
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I expect others to refer to her as she wants to be referred to. And to accept her decision and treat her respectfully and without discrimination
 
January said:
Not sure what is so difficult. And not sure what you asrerix word is suppossed to be, but nobody is hating anything.
And you don't have to understand it - it isn't about you.
Surely you can accept other people feel this way whether you relate to it personally or not. Doesn't take that much empathy.
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The bleeped word - automatically put there by the forum software - started with Gen and ended with tals. And yes, I have seen interviews with trans people that has mentioned this very specific thing.

As I have said, I have no problem with trans people. I don't think they should be stopped or prevented from being trans. I'm not sure what more I can do. I simply draw the line at a trans woman being considered a biological female. Is that really a problem? To me it's simple genetics.

January said:
Not digressing into race identification issues - start another thread if you want to discuss that. But not using it as a red herring in this one.
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Well, that's grossly unfair if you actually read and understood the reason I brought it up. Not that YOU have to discuss it. People making decisions about what they are, contrary to genetics, is something trans and the example I gave, have in common.

January said:
I expect others to refer to her as she wants to be referred to. And to accept her decision and treat her respectfully and without discrimination
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Is calling a trans woman "he", discrimination? I'd need to better understand the thinking there.
 
I don't think calling a transwoman 'he' is discrimination - but it also isn't right thing to do. Call people by that which they want to be called. That surely isn't that hard to understand.

VaughanJB said:
As I have said, I have no problem with trans people. I don't think they should be stopped or prevented from being trans. I'm not sure what more I can do. I simply draw the line at a trans woman being considered a biological female. Is that really a problem? To me it's simple genetics.
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I'm not sure what you are arguing then. I don't think anyone said transwomen should be considered biological or genetic females.
But I can consider them to be medically/ surgically/ socially transitioned to female ( or female to male) and treat them accordingly.
 
Mitch86 said:
The only biological transgender species is the EARTHWORM! Each individual has male AND female sex organs.
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That is not transgender. It is an example of an hermaphrodite species (Greek - Hermes, a male god, and Aphrodite, a female god).

Gender switching, male to female, or vice versa also occurs in nature.

Hermaphrodite organisms - leeches, prawns, oysters, starfish, frogs, coral, hydra, tapeworms and deep sea fish.

Gender switching organisms - fish (clown fish, wrasse fish, hawkfish, parrot fish, anemonefish) slugs, marine snails, bearded dragons (Aust. lizards), oysters, and quite a few other species.

Logically speaking, given that our human DNA shares many genes with lower life forms, it is not impossible that some of our genes relating to sex/gender might differ in a few individuals.
 
Mitch86 said:
The only biological transgender species is the EARTHWORM! Each individual has male AND female sex organs.
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Chances are you know but most do not as useless trivia thus perfect for me but some fish can change genders such as clown fish and some reptiles such as Mourning geckos there are all females .

They used to be found in Florida mostly South Beach and Key West , Lol little joke there but the common bigger '' house gecko '' which can certainly eat them displaced them but still pockets of Mourning geckos found .

They sell them online and neat little terrarium pets .
''

The Curious Case of the Missing Males: Unraveling the Mystery of Mourning Geckos​

The short answer to why there are so few male mourning geckos is parthenogenesis. This remarkable form of asexual reproduction allows female mourning geckos to reproduce without the need for fertilization by a male. In essence, they create genetic clones of themselves. While males can exist in this species, they are extremely rare, often sterile, and play virtually no role in the continuation of the mourning gecko lineage. This adaptation has allowed them to thrive and colonize new environments effectively, albeit with limited genetic diversity.''

Why are there no male mourning geckos? - The Environmental Literacy Council
 

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