What would happen if college was free for all students?

[RambleTamble]

That’s why it wouldn’t happen. Smart people are troublemakers

Smart people don't vote against their best interests.

 

[oldman]

@squatting dog and @C50

Apprenticeship programs still exist. Most of them are related to every aspect of construction, but technology-related apprenticeship programs are exploding.

But there are a lot fewer than there were, say, 40-50yrs ago. I think most of the current ones are through workers union

I know of Machinist Apprenticeships, Tool and Diemaker Apprenticeships, Plumber Apprenticeships. Electrician Apprenticeships,
HVAC Apprenticeships and more.

 

[David777]

Would likely become like many community colleges seem to have become with significant numbers without anything better to do, like a working career or job, going to their local community colleges and then bringing along the same non-serious attitudes they did in high school where its more a convenient excuse to continue to socialize with others of like age. Also, many HR, human resource departments of corporations, have schemed with colleges to only bother looking at resumes with college credits or degrees, while instantly tossing those with just solid work experiences, despite such often being more important.

Note, this person doesn't have any college degrees, just a few credits. I did go to military electronics schools during the Viet Nam
War, but far far more of my education came from self reading technical and science books during my later working years. One of the first things I did, during my first civilian job that was in Palo Alto near Stanford, was going through page by page, the whole 640 page Texas Instruments, The TTL Data Book for Design Engineers, that had schematic drawings of internal device structures, figuring out how those digital circuits worked internally.

 

[Llynn]

I financed my last two years of undergrad and much of grad school by giving some of my young adulthood to the USN. For me the GI Bill was a Godsend and changed my life. Unfortunately lots of worthless training was included in the program so far too much money was wasted.

 

[VaughanJB]

Well, prior to 1998, in the UK, university (college) was free in the UK. Funding came from the tax payer.

I can't think of too many benefits from having an uneducated populace. And in my life time, a college education has been considered essential for my jobs/roles.

But then, like everything, it has become corrupted by greed. For example, the "success" of a college is often measured on how many students graduate with a degree, which appears to have the net effect of lowering standards in order to keep the marketing looking good.

Also, costs are now largely too high, and we've lost any sight of joined up thinking - what are we educating people for? When it's on the public dime, I think we should be helping to build a greater future, ensuring people have the skills to be successful in the society they'll function in. When it's paid for privately - well, I guess if you want to study flower arranging, then knock yourself out. So, when I was a lad, there was a new emphasis on Computer Science (as it was called then). This helped people get ready for the world we live in.

One problem today is that there seems to be a demand that a college education should guarantee employment. That seems to be regardless of the subject studied. It seems to only be dawning on people now that things don't work that way. Also, student loans are handed out too easily to 18 year olds, at obscene interest rates, that shackle them for decades.

 

[Sunkist]

I know of Machinist Apprenticeships, Tool and Diemaker Apprenticeships, Plumber Apprenticeships. Electrician Apprenticeships,
HVAC Apprenticeships and more.

I don't know if they're still doing it or not, but a few years ago some healthcare facilities in the region offered free CNA classes for individuals who agreed to work there for a specific period of time afterward. I thought that was a good idea.

 

[VaughanJB]

I don't know if they're still doing it or not, but a few years ago some healthcare facilities in the region offered free CNA classes for individuals who agreed to work there for a specific period of time afterward. I thought that was a good idea.

An excellent idea, not too far from the idea of apprenticeships.

 

[RambleTamble]

Theoretically, we could have AI professors in the near future with students learning from home, which would eliminate the need for college and university campuses. We already have online college classes, but anybody who has ever taken one of them knows they're really awful. It's been some 15 years since I took one, so they might have improved since then, but I doubt it. With AI, we could have actual lectures on the subject matter and even discussions. I guess, along with that, the AI professor would evaluate your contributions and knowledge. It could quiz you and test your ability to think logically.

Most of the cost of colleges and universities these days isn't with professors, though; it's with administration. Many of those jobs could be replaced by AI.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with an AI professor. Unless you're doing research, college professors are just regurgitating what's in the textbooks. AI professors would be perfectly suited for something like that.

So with AI taking over much of the teaching and administration, and with less need for large campuses, college could be free without much cost to taxpayers.

 

[Murrmurr]

I just happened to find what you posted. I am not getting notifications of my quoted posts most of the time.

There is a possibility that eliminating the Federal Dept. of Education could happen, but it will require an act of Congress.

However, it's a viable option I suppose, since AI says Implementing a national free college program for all could cost approximately 58 billion in the first year and 800 billion over a decade, and goes on to say, "The U.S. Department of Education's total outlays for fiscal year 2024 were approximately $268 billion, representing about 4% of total federal spending."

Abolishing the Dept. of Education would shift much responsibility to the states as well as to the Dept. of Health and Human Services, which, as we know, oversees CMS, and therefore, Medicare.

If we could rely on the Constitution and Supreme Court rulings alone, I wager at least 100 federal regulatory and guideline agencies could be eliminated. Probably over 200. And I'm referring to regulatory and guideline agencies only, not investigative agencies such as the FCC.

Most regulatory agencies at the federal level are duplicates of state regulatory agencies. Simply put, they're toilets that flush trillions in tax dollars. Our federal income tax would be greatly reduced if these redundant agencies were eliminated, and states could raise their taxes to improve their functionality, including social services, according to their industry and the needs of their citizens.

 

[Murrmurr]

Theoretically, we could have AI professors in the near future with students learning from home, which would eliminate the need for college and university campuses.

Experiencing campus schedules, learning, and community is educational.

We already have online college classes, but anybody who has ever taken one of them knows they're really awful. It's been some 15 years since I took one, so they might have improved since then, but I doubt it.

There are some really good ones. The awful ones are easy to spot, but you do have to thoroughly explore their websites and compare them to others to weed out the awfuls.

With AI, we could have actual lectures on the subject matter and even discussions. I guess, along with that, the AI professor would evaluate your contributions and knowledge. It could quiz you and test your ability to think logically.

Currently, university students can attend lectures on various online platforms, such as YouTube and Rumble, and even ones like X and Kick.

Most of the cost of colleges and universities these days isn't with professors, though; it's with administration. Many of those jobs could be replaced by AI.

% correct.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with an AI professor. Unless you're doing research, college professors are just regurgitating what's in the textbooks. AI professors would be perfectly suited for something like that.

I don't think so. None of my professors just regurgitated what was in text books. That was a long time ago, but current classes that are recorded and posted online show professors who really engage with their students, and who sometimes get into various philosophies and new research, models, and findings related to the subject, which isn't found in textbooks.

So with AI taking over much of the teaching and administration, and with less need for large campuses, college could be free without much cost to taxpayers.

AI administrators could do a bang-up job, I bet. Practically for free.

 

[Murrmurr]

I know of Machinist Apprenticeships, Tool and Diemaker Apprenticeships, Plumber Apprenticeships. Electrician Apprenticeships,
HVAC Apprenticeships and more.

You know Mike Rowe...the guy who hosted the TV show Dirty Jobs? He's head of mikeroweWORKS Foundation, which states; "For nearly two decades, we've championed the skilled trades through the largest scholarship program in the country." It runs on donations from private, industry, and commerce sources.

Young men and women can go to his website and apply for all kinds of skilled-trade scholarships, including for what he calls "AI-proof six-figure jobs."

 

[JustDave]

Most of the cost of colleges and universities these days isn't with professors, though; it's with administration. Many of those jobs could be replaced by AI.

I have zero knowledge about this and I can accept that as true, but on the surface it doesn't seem right. Are we talking about more administrators than professors? Fewer administrators, but with much higher salaries?

As a student, the value of the education seemed directly proportional to the quality of the instructors, rather than the quality of the administrators. I understand the necessity of administration, but it seems like a lesser part of the service.

 

[Happy Heart]

India has had free college for years so maybe look them for results.

 

[Lawrence00]

People that are dedicated would not be blocked by excessive tuition, room and board. People deserve a chance.

There would not be much of a rush for foo foo degrees as even dumb people don't want to spend years of their life and end up with no payday. Especially if foo foo degrees were not included in the free tuition plan.

Mike Rowe's ideas are good. Many community colleges are affordable and lead to jobs as well even today.

 

[Jeni]

It used to be so much more was expected from high school students.
Many entering college have to do remedial classes just to start from the starting line. far too many just passed along IMO

Too many do not respect anything that is "free" ... they do not put in any more effort than high school.

Mike Rowes program is for 2-year type degrees or certifications. many types of careers. I saw a show about it and some fuss and holler about following the program rules and walk away. Look up his S.W.E.A.T pledge he asks them to sign. very common-sense things but some have taken issue with it.

I have known people with a lot of college and more than one degree but zero common sense or the ability to think on their feet.

earning something and paying for it makes MOST value you it much more than something for free.

 

[josephine]

That’s why it wouldn’t happen. Smart people are troublemakers

I agree with this statement, ancient rulers were more inclined to keep their people ignorant.

 

[Rakaia]

I agree with this statement, ancient rulers were more inclined to keep their people ignorant.

Thanks to Johannes Gutenberg, literacy and more recently the interwebs the ignorance and education pendulum is swinging like London in the 60's.

 

[RambleTamble]

I have zero knowledge about this and I can accept that as true, but on the surface it doesn't seem right. Are we talking about more administrators than professors? Fewer administrators, but with much higher salaries?

As a student, the value of the education seemed directly proportional to the quality of the instructors, rather than the quality of the administrators. I understand the necessity of administration, but it seems like a lesser part of the service.

Yep, many universities seem to have forgotten that they exist primarily to educate students -- not just to provide jobs for administrators.

To cut costs, universities and colleges now employ adjunct professors to teach classes, which makes them hourly employees. They're paid a lot less than full time instructors, and they don't get health insurance or other benefits, which saves the university a lot of money, but that means the instructors are forced to pay for their insurance "out of pocket," which cuts further into their income. Many of them are still good teachers, but there must be low morale among others. And that's happening at well respected universities -- not just community colleges.

 

[RambleTamble]

I don't think so. None of my professors just regurgitated what was in text books. That was a long time ago, but current classes that are recorded and posted online show professors who really engage with their students, and who sometimes get into various philosophies and new research, models, and findings related to the subject, which isn't found in textbooks.

That's true. I had a few professors like that... one in American foreign policy, another one in some political science class, and a few others, but for the most part -- especially in math classes, they just teach what's in the textbooks. I majored in Computer Science and those classes I mentioned were electives.

Computer Science at the undergrad level isn't about debate, although there were a few minor ones. I guess at the Master's level, they might have debates about operating system design and the old threads vs. separate processes paradigm, but at the Bachelor's level, you're just learning established theories and designs. You're learning the foundations of computer science. Once you have that knowledge, then you can move on to developing new systems. You need to learn the rules first before you go out and break them.

So AI is perfect for something like that. While online video lectures already exist, they're a really inefficient way to learn. I could read the information in the textbook much faster than the professor could regurgitate the information. The only thing the lectures were good for was finding out what was going to be on the exams. Usually, if it was taught in class, it would be on the exam.

Actually, some students participated in in-class discussions, but not me. I had severe public speaking anxiety, so I rarely opened my mouth in class. I probably would have benefited from a public speaking class, which I finally did, but that was when I was in my 50s -- decades after I graduated from university.

 

[JustDave]

None of my professors just regurgitated what was in text books. That was a long time ago.

Some of my professors just regurgitated. More than half did not. One of the first things I researched in a new class was whether the professor based his tests on his lectures, or on the book. For most it was probably a bit of both, but with an emphasis on one or the other. A few, reading the book might have been 100% irrelevant, just study lecture notes. Or it could be 100% the opposite, and you wouldn't even have to go to class, just study the book.

In math, for myself, I was dependent on the book. My thoughts and opinions were worthless.

 

[Murrmurr]

That's true. I had a few professors like that... one in American foreign policy, another one in some political science class, and a few others, but for the most part -- especially in math classes, they just teach what's in the textbooks. I majored in Computer Science and those classes I mentioned were electives.

Computer Science at the undergrad level isn't about debate, although there were a few minor ones. I guess at the Master's level, they might have debates about operating system design and the old threads vs. separate processes paradigm, but at the Bachelor's level, you're just learning established theories and designs. You're learning the foundations of computer science. Once you have that knowledge, then you can move on to developing new systems. You need to learn the rules first before you go out and break them.

So AI is perfect for something like that. While online video lectures already exist, they're a really inefficient way to learn. I could read the information in the textbook much faster than the professor could regurgitate the information. The only thing the lectures were good for was finding out what was going to be on the exams. Usually, if it was taught in class, it would be on the exam.

Actually, some students participated in in-class discussions, but not me. I had severe public speaking anxiety, so I rarely opened my mouth in class. I probably would have benefited from a public speaking class, which I finally did, but that was when I was in my 50s -- decades after I graduated from university.

Oh yeah. Math. Good point.

Math has always been my nemesis....maybe because it's inflexible. I mean, how creative can you get? It's a tool, like a wrench or a hammer, so you can build something with it, but you can't make a wrench be a poem.

I'm sounding silly now, but maybe you get what I mean. Me and math got along okay until it morphed into algebra, hit me like a semi and sped away, leaving me behind. Like roadkill. I thought I'd wrapped my head around it pretty good until I learned there's literally infinitely more to math than addition, subtraction, and division.

Anyway, enough about that. I'm getting triggered.

I enjoyed lectures. I think science lectures were my favorites. The history ones were really interesting, too, but I had some great professors. Students were free to engage with the professors at the end of their lectures, though. We didn't just sit down, shut up, listen, and leave. Maybe not all schools did it that way.

 

[Messy]

It costs 2700 a year in the Netherlands and everyone gets 325 a month and if you have parents who don't earn enough you get 490 a month extra, but they get that back later in taxes when they get a job.
Some more practical studies are for free.

 

[JustDave]

Oh yeah. Math. Good point.
Me and math got along okay until it morphed into algebra, hit me like a semi and sped away, leaving me behind. Like roadkill.

I was fair at math in high school, even algebra, but my first year of college algebra was a disaster. College trigonometry was an even bigger disaster. It might as well been something from a different department. I don't recall there being much math in it. At least it didn't seem like math.

 

[Warrigal]

Government money can be used in different ways to fund higher education.

Way back in 1959, the NSW government offered Teachers College scholarships to final year school students. The Commonwealth government also offered a limited number scholarships. I applied for both and was awarded both but could only accept one. I chose the Teachers scholarship on because it paid for university tuition and had the added bonus of a book allowance and a small living allowance covering 10 months of the year. The catch was that on graduation I would be obliged to accept whatever position I was offered or refund a significant amount of money to the government.

The Commonwealth government did not require me to accept any position on graduation. It only offered free tuition. There was no bond attached to the scholarship. My family was not well heeled so I accepted the Teachers College scholarship.

Years later I returned to university for further study. I wanted to learn more about special ed for children with disabilities. By this time, I was Deputy Principal at a girls' high school. I could afford to pay tuition fees but the federal government under Gough Whitlam had introduced free tertiary education for all students capable of this level of study. All I had to pay was the admin fees. I decided to take extra courses to update my knowledge - introduction to computing, some biology, geology, chemistry, mathematics and models of teaching. I absorbed so much more than I did the first time round.

I studied part time, some subjects by correspondence, and didn't take on too many subjects at once. It took me 8 years to finish during which time there were two deaths in the family, both of my children married, and Hubby and I took long service leave on half pay and travelled around the world (literally around the world) taking 5 months to do so. In the last couple of years a new commonwealth government introduced a Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) which was a student loan scheme with repayments to begin after reaching a certain annual income. I simply paid up front because I was earning good money.

Both systems were successful in making higher education within the reach of young people from lower income families but over time the expanding number of students put quite a strain on the education budget.

The loans were handed over to private financiers and interest at commercial rates was added every year at just the time when young people are ready to settle down, take on a mortgage and begin a family. This is one of the main reasons why the current cohort of young Australians are growing ever more resentful of the boomers. I don't blame them.

Our current government is looking at ways to help out by lowering interest rates on student loans because we need well educated workers to teach, staff the hospitals and design safe skyscrapers, bridges and highways. At the same time, we need trade schools that innovative and up to date with new technology if we don't want to be left behind the rest of the world.

 

[VaughanJB]

It makes good sense to have an educated population. Which is why we have legislated schooling to the age of 16 in the UK. Higher education - college - is optional. Personally, I don't think time spent learning is ever wasted.

In modern times, I'm not sure the old model of physically attending a college - with all the expense that incurs - and lectures and such make as much sense, but then college is often the first time young adults spend time away from their families, which is good for socialization.

I do worry that colleges have lost a little focus on being centers of learning though. This may not be a legitimate concern, but there appears to be an awful lot of non-academic stuff going on, and I'm not sure that's always a good thing.

I do NOT think that there has to be a direct correlation between a college degree and a specific career path. Education within itself is valuable. People need to learn all kinds of skills, from how to research, study, document ideas, communicate in various forms, etc. There are paths where career paths are clearly mapped, such as in the medical field, and research fields in the sciences, but it doesn't have to be direct.

The burden of debt is a madness though. The whole loan and repayment system needs to overhauled.

Finally, we need to accept as oldsters that we don't really have the vision for the future in the same way younger folk do. Technology has been busy reshaping every aspect of our lives, and I know for myself - despite a career in technology - that I'm already behind the 8-ball on what's coming, and what will be relevant.