When Children Abandon Their Parents - Sensitive

Too many issues with no one single answer. And actually there should be little surprise. The seeds for this result were planted long ago and the signs were there if one thinks about them. That doesn't mean a family relationship can't become practical but there are reasons for sayings like "the point of no return" or "it's as good as it's going to get".
 

My late mother was a narcissist who was verbally abusive to my father, my sister, and myself. A visit home was like taking a bath in battery acid, but my sister and myself always maintained contact with our parents due to love for our father and a sense of obligation to both parents. A degree of physical separation was necessary, however, in order to ensure our psychological survival as adults against our mother's damaging predations and constant efforts to control and rule our lives. Family dynamics vary greatly, and it's up to every adult child to determine what they can weather and endure when they have a toxic parent.
 
I know what you mean but.....

Fyrefox said:
My late mother was a narcissist who was verbally abusive to my father, my sister, and myself. A visit home was like taking a bath in battery acid, but my sister and myself always maintained contact with our parents due to love for our father and a sense of obligation to both parents. A degree of physical separation was necessary, however, in order to ensure our psychological survival as adults against our mother's damaging predations and constant efforts to control and rule our lives. Family dynamics vary greatly, and it's up to every adult child to determine what they can weather and endure when they have a toxic parent.
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I think I know what you mean, and my own mother was certainly a difficult person to live with and she did try to take over your life sometimes. However, especially since she's died ironically I have come to understand what she faced, and the pressures other members of the family placed upon her (who you couldn't call narcissistic).

I doubt my daughter could say I was a narcissistic person, maybe she doesn't know me really, so little has she had to do with me over the last twenty years, but what she has said (as a young girl/young woman) is that I "ruined the first twelve years of her life"! So, there are so many things causing relationship breakdown, and I guess most observers would say or think that as my daughter is obviously happy and successful that is all that really matters. Important as it is that she's happy cutting me totally out of her life and as a consequence my grandson's life is a bit tough (I may have said this before :D )
 

Aunt Bea said:
I don't know how it works in Canada but my experience in the United States is that when the need for a facility comes up you are handed a list of the local nursing homes and asked to pick three, a hospital social worker checks availability and tries to get you into the facility of your choice. If you demonstrate an ability to pay on your own it definitely helps. Once in the facility if your money runs out the facilities that accept medicaid will allow you to stay, often times requiring you to move to a shared room, and if they don't accept medicaid you are handed a list of facilities that do and you pick three again, the social worker checks to see if they have room, if they don't you take what is available.
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My one aunt wanted to be in Menno Home so she put her name in but then turned down a room three times over the space of several years because she was still able to be in her apartment. The last time they called, she was ready. And because she'd been a stay at home mom all her life, she had limited finances, but our government covered a good portion of her costs via government pensions. She was lucky because she had a nice little one bedroom suite. Tiny but it had a kitchenette and her separate bedroom.

Another aunt of mine didn't plan in advance and then when she was sick, the family scrambled to find a bed somewhere and she spent the next nine years feeling unhappy. She was stuck in a single room with it's own bathroom. I've decided that when I get settled and I'm closer to that point in life, I'm going to follow my first aunts example. I'd like to have a little say in how things go.

It sounds like your system is like ours in that it depends on how much money you have personally.
 
I know people in my other networking sites who do not have good relationships with their children and have not seen them in a long time. Some have no hopes of seeing them anytime soon. It IS very sad. I don't know if it's a product of how they were raised: Did they feel they didn't get enough love, were they mistreated or did they have major disagreements that couldn't be resolved. My father and I had a major blow-out when I was 21 and I moved out and stayed with a co-worker until I found a place. But we made up and I remained close to my parents who wound up being a tremendous help with my son. Some young people want to prove they can make it on their own, so they move away. Some may be chasing a dream. Some are so busy trying to live their lives, to survive in this hectic, expensive world that they lose focus on everything other than their personal circumstances.
 
'Someone else said something along the lines of there being no rule that children and parents will like each other and sometimes life is more peaceful if you aren't inflicting yourselves on each other'.
Thank you Debby this is absolutely correct and exactly how my daughter and I live our lives. BTW I do like your Groucho Marx disguise :D
 
Quite honestly I didn't like my father very much; my mother was hospitalized when I was a little over 4 and died there. I was fostered out to multiple homes until age 13 when he found a home where I was virtually an indentured servant. I rarely saw him - even tho he lived only 12 miles away when I was in the last home. Nothing I ever did was good enough; when I got A's he complained if I got B's in deportment. Why didn't I get A's, etc. etc. When I did see him he punished me for some sin I'd committed weeks before. The last time he took a belt to me and left welts on my legs. I was 13 - just before he moved me in with the last family I stayed with. When I graduated from High School, I bought my first car - he refused to speak to me for 2 years because he disapproved of the model I bought.
We kind of patched it up when I got married, but I still saw him rarely. I had started college and completed 2 years when I had to drop out to have my first child. His "I told you so" (never complete the program) didn't sit too well with me. "I will will finish" (he poo pooed me) I did finish - albeit 15 years later. By then I was living on the west coast - 3000 mi away. The only time he ever showed any approval was oddly enough something really weird. In my late 40's I got into motorcycling and I took a solo trip back to New York. He was blown away! I saw him one last time about a year before he died (at age 90). My eldest son went back with me. Dad didn't even recognize him and barely did me. It took me many years to figure out how I really felt about my father, but I felt more comfortable once I did.
As to my own children, one of my daughters lives with me - as does her only son and his son. The two adults both work but rents in this area are so outrageous neither can afford to live away - and I like the company. Two sons live in Calif. and we are on good terms. We accept what each chooses to give. My second daughter, who also lives in Calif.) is a schizophrenic who blames me for all her misfortunes (even the ones I had nothing remotely to do with). I realize I wasn't the best of mothers (didn't have too many good role models), but I have done my best to atone and am on good terms with the rest of the family. Tho 80, I'm still pretty active and don't depend on them to entertain me or provide for all my social needs.
 
Dragonlady said:
Quite honestly I didn't like my father very much; my mother was hospitalized when I was a little over 4 and died there. I was fostered out to multiple homes until age 13 when he found a home where I was virtually an indentured servant. I rarely saw him - even tho he lived only 12 miles away when I was in the last home. Nothing I ever did was good enough; when I got A's he complained if I got B's in deportment. Why didn't I get A's, etc. etc. When I did see him he punished me for some sin I'd committed weeks before. The last time he took a belt to me and left welts on my legs. I was 13 - just before he moved me in with the last family I stayed with. When I graduated from High School, I bought my first car - he refused to speak to me for 2 years because he disapproved of the model I bought.
We kind of patched it up when I got married, but I still saw him rarely. I had started college and completed 2 years when I had to drop out to have my first child. His "I told you so" (never complete the program) didn't sit too well with me. "I will will finish" (he poo pooed me) I did finish - albeit 15 years later. By then I was living on the west coast - 3000 mi away. The only time he ever showed any approval was oddly enough something really weird. In my late 40's I got into motorcycling and I took a solo trip back to New York. He was blown away! I saw him one last time about a year before he died (at age 90). My eldest son went back with me. Dad didn't even recognize him and barely did me. It took me many years to figure out how I really felt about my father, but I felt more comfortable once I did.
As to my own children, one of my daughters lives with me - as does her only son and his son. The two adults both work but rents in this area are so outrageous neither can afford to live away - and I like the company. Two sons live in Calif. and we are on good terms. We accept what each chooses to give. My second daughter, who also lives in Calif.) is a schizophrenic who blames me for all her misfortunes (even the ones I had nothing remotely to do with). I realize I wasn't the best of mothers (didn't have too many good role models), but I have done my best to atone and am on good terms with the rest of the family. Tho 80, I'm still pretty active and don't depend on them to entertain me or provide for all my social needs.
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Dear Dragonlady,
I liked your very honest post and assessment of your own life very much (BTW elsewhere I have met a guy calling himself "Dragon" - you're not related are you - just joking these as per a satirical UK magazine called private eye).

If you don't mind I will bore you with some details of another discussion I've initiated "elsewhere" regarding father's rights, where the views of a particular professor called Akira Morita from Tokyo university chime with my own very much (all presented at a "World Family Policy Forum" held in 2000 at Brigham Young University, Utah. Before I do that though, may I say you sound like you did your very best in what must have been a pretty tough start to life. My own parents fell out all the time, but successfully reared seven children and we all had a great sense of security on the farm in Cheshire where I grew up and am now sitting (though I get evicted in a months time due to three sisters manipulating my 95yr old father, who died this year - still that's another story).



http://www.law2.byu.edu/wfpc/forum/2000/WFPF2000.pdf





Here I would like to point out only that the United States, as the pioneer of the development of children’s law in the twentieth century, is the very country that has experienced most intensively the significance and gravity of the conflict between organic human relations and right based relations. I would like to quote a passage from a dissertation written in 1992 by legal scholar Dr James Lucier that provided a theoretical foundation for the anti-ratification movement: What is missing in the Convention is the underlying idea of rights for families. . . . By endowing the child with legal autonomy, that is to say, enjoying rights independently of the family, the new doctrine puts the family in the position of mere care-givers, bound to the observance of the child’s rights. Every child becomes the adversary of the parents, at least in the potential, and the adversary of brothers and sisters in competition for rights. . . . By destroying the human factor in human relationships, the advocate of autonomy, especially the autonomy of children, will create a society which lacks the principles of cohesiveness and common purpose necessary to its common existence.4


Break

I do not wish to be understood as suggesting that the concept of children’s rights in itself is completely meaningless. The reality is that within the increasing complexity of modern society, parental authority has become dysfunctional and abusive, and we must recognize that there are many cases in which the child’s right to protection is compelled to take on the role of an emergency fire brigade. Even in such cases, however, we need to remember the words of Josef Goldstein, that “law [and rights] may be able to destroy human relationships, but it does not have the power to compel them to develop.”10 In other words, rights cannot be an Aladdin’s lamp that brings happiness. What children need most is the relationship itself, not an isolated benefit conferred in the name of rights. If we forget that law and rights have such limitations and think of the “Convention on the Rights of the Child” and its catalogue as a “magna carta for children,”11 we will be walking into the myth and fantasy of twentieth century that children’s rights constitute.

Conclusion We have taken a look at two aspects of the paradoxes raised today by the concept of children’s rights. What should we look for in order to head off the dangers pregnant in such paradoxes? I want to conclude by searching for clues in terms of a reassessment of the image of modern man that lies behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy. As I have mentioned, behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy is the surrealistic view of the child as “a little acorn that grows up autonomously.” It soon becomes plain to anyone that this view, when illuminated by the light of ordinary everyday experience, is lacking in realism. It is no more than an idealization and romanticization of autonomy. Nevertheless, why is this concept so highly contagious that it is becoming a fixture in today’s international conventions and conquering the western world? When we get to the bottom of the matter, we arrive at the modernistic image of man, dating from the eighteenth century onward, that regards complete autonomy in itself as a legitimate possibility and holds it up as the ultimate ideal. That is, the ideal depicts the individual as the “lone rights-bearer” who has cast off all restrictions and connections and is self determining and self-contained. What props up this ideal is a passion for emancipation—to throw off the shackles that bind and thereby gain freedom. The appearance of the child’s right to autonomy that we are witnessing today is none other than a symbolic event that tells us that this ideal of modern man has finally reached down, two hundred years after the French Revolution, to the intermediating body positioned as the very basis of society—the family.
WORLD FAMILY POLICY FORUM 2000
 
My daughter is the personification of Evil pure and simple.
I do not like her and she does not like me and we are way better living far away from each other with no contact.
Just because she is my child and I am her mother does not mean we must like each other or enjoy each other's company.
We never got on when she was growing up and the situation has only gotten worse.
 
Sorry to hear that, as all forum members will be

peramangkelder said:
My daughter is the personification of Evil pure and simple.
I do not like her and she does not like me and we are way better living far away from each other with no contact.
Just because she is my child and I am her mother does not mean we must like each other or enjoy each other's company.
We never got on when she was growing up and the situation has only gotten worse.
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Dear peramangkelder,
I am sure I speak for all forum members when I say how sorry I am to hear that, and how difficult it must have been for you both.

Its not the best thing to hear when the New Year is upon us all, but your honesty is laudable.

Graham
 
Dragonlady said:
Quite honestly I didn't like my father very much; my mother was hospitalized when I was a little over 4 and died there. I was fostered out to multiple homes until age 13 when he found a home where I was virtually an indentured servant. I rarely saw him - even tho he lived only 12 miles away when I was in the last home. Nothing I ever did was good enough; when I got A's he complained if I got B's in deportment. Why didn't I get A's, etc. etc. When I did see him he punished me for some sin I'd committed weeks before. The last time he took a belt to me and left welts on my legs. I was 13 - just before he moved me in with the last family I stayed with. When I graduated from High School, I bought my first car - he refused to speak to me for 2 years because he disapproved of the model I bought.
We kind of patched it up when I got married, but I still saw him rarely. I had started college and completed 2 years when I had to drop out to have my first child. His "I told you so" (never complete the program) didn't sit too well with me. "I will will finish" (he poo pooed me) I did finish - albeit 15 years later. By then I was living on the west coast - 3000 mi away. The only time he ever showed any approval was oddly enough something really weird. In my late 40's I got into motorcycling and I took a solo trip back to New York. He was blown away! I saw him one last time about a year before he died (at age 90). My eldest son went back with me. Dad didn't even recognize him and barely did me. It took me many years to figure out how I really felt about my father, but I felt more comfortable once I did.
As to my own children, one of my daughters lives with me - as does her only son and his son. The two adults both work but rents in this area are so outrageous neither can afford to live away - and I like the company. Two sons live in Calif. and we are on good terms. We accept what each chooses to give. My second daughter, who also lives in Calif.) is a schizophrenic who blames me for all her misfortunes (even the ones I had nothing remotely to do with). I realize I wasn't the best of mothers (didn't have too many good role models), but I have done my best to atone and am on good terms with the rest of the family. Tho 80, I'm still pretty active and don't depend on them to entertain me or provide for all my social needs.
Click to expand...


I think that all we can do is our best and the rest of the world are just going to have to accept it. And many are still not going to accept you, your efforts or your intentions because their perceptions are skewed for whatever reason.

My mom is like that. My daughter once said to me, when she had her migraines when a child, she always loved it when I would sit on the edge of her bed with a cold damp cloth for her forehead and talk softly to her in the darkened room and just make her feel safe even though her head hurt so badly. When I mentioned that, my mom said, 'isn't it too bad that she had to go through that just to feel loved by you'. Yep, that's what she said. Keep in mind that my daughter and I have a lovely relationship, have always had a lovely relationship.

So you can be the best person in the world and there will always be people who will disrespect you in spite of it. I guess we should just enjoy the ones we feel good with and ignore the other bozo's.
 
Debby said:
My mom is like that. My daughter once said to me, when she had her migraines when a child, she always loved it when I would sit on the edge of her bed with a cold damp cloth for her forehead and talk softly to her in the darkened room and just make her feel safe even though her head hurt so badly. When I mentioned that, my mom said, 'isn't it too bad that she had to go through that just to feel loved by you'. Yep, that's what she said. Keep in mind that my daughter and I have a lovely relationship, have always had a lovely relationship.
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No doubt the psychologists have a word for that attitude.

IMHO, her comment says a lot more about her than you. Some people have the attitude "Look for the worst in in any situation and magnify it". Very sad. They are their own worst enemy.
 
I think many people our age were brought up by parents who did not easily express love and affection and were sometimes very strict and even abusive. Strict religious families would not be very much fun to live in. People who went through WWII in Europe sometimes were left with PTSD and suffered from emotional problems, bitterness, anger and violent tempers. Then there was the depression. So it wasn't exactly a bowl of cherries for some people.

Nowadays with movies and the media as well as psychotherapy we have better tools for communicating and interacting with others. Unfortunately, there are still many negative feelings remaining in children of parents who were not nice to them, some overly critical controlling parents end up alone or neglected with minimal care when they are old. If a grown child remembers how mean and abusive a parent was when they were a kid, its understandable to me that they would want very little to do with them, especially if that parent is still nasty. Does that child have a duty to care for that parent? Good question. That's probably why these old people are left in nursing homes to die alone. Of course that's the extreme.
 
My Parents had 3 children and I was the youngest. My sister was 2 yrs older then me and my brother was 13 yrs older then me. My Parents were the best. Right after my brother got married he was drafted into the army. His wife lived with us until my brother was located at a Base about 2 hours from our home.My Dad would drive all of us to the Base every Friday after work. He would bring money to my brother,bought him a car and when my brother was able to get housing on the base his wife moved in with him and we would still go every week to bring them groceries and other things. When he got out of the army they lived with us for 4 yrs,and had 2 son's while they lived with us. My parents paid for everything they needed even the baby food. My Mom did all the laundry and everything else . After they moved my Dad took them on a 2 week vacation for years.If my Dad bought anything for himself like a TV or dishwasher He bought the same thing for my brother and his wife. Once the kids were old enough not to need my parents help my brother stopped bothering with my parents ,me and my sister. He very seldom called,sent them a birthday card etc. After my parents passed I tried to keep in touch with my brother ,but he never did the same. He is gone now and so is his wife. When he passed he left all his belongings,house,stocks etc.to one of his boys and cut off the other. I will never understand how he could have treated my parents like that and then turning against his own son. It makes me sad to think of what my parents had to go through, They didn't deserve it.
 
A sad story, Sassycakes, and very strange behavior on the part of your brother. Could there be some early family history that you might not know about, perhaps he had psychological problems.
 
It's very hard to know what goes on between individuals when you're on the outside looking in. To the person looking on it may seem there's no understandable reason for certain behaviors. My cousin (my paternal uncle's daughter) thought I was the scum of the earth because I didn't jettison my kids and my job to move back east when my father started failing. She was devoted to her father and virtually gave up her life to care for him; she lived in the same area. My Dad made sure I had little to no contact with any of my family so they were totally unaware of the nature of our relationship (and the cousin had always had a major crush on my Dad, so she was more than a little biased). My step mother's family undertook my Dad's care so I knew he's be well cared for. At the time, I was in my late 50's, recovering from lung cancer and had a good pension I didn't want to lose. Had my step mom's family not stepped in I would have brought him out here. They ultimately had to put him in a nursing home due to his mental status.
Family relationships can be very convoluted - there are all kinds of resentments, jealousy and grudges barely below the surface as well as feelings of favoritism. Just because siblings are born to the same parents, doesn't mean they will like and trust each other as they grow up. They are all different enough to react to the same thing differently. Families can be really nice and supportive - and they can be hell on wheels
 
Ooh. Some of these stories made me cry. My heart goes out to you. I have a sad story too. After years of a rocky relationship with my son, I recently asked him to leave me alone until/unless he wants a "real" mother, and to please stop breaking my heart. This followed my ending up sitting in the office of a colleague just before the Xmas break, sitting on his lap, bawling my eyes out. Some

therapist I am! Lol. He is an older man, Québécois, with eight kids, zillions of grandchildren etc. He picked me up out of my chair, and rocked me back and forth like a child. It was lovely. Once I was calm, he let me have it. "Shalimar, I have known you for twenty five years, your son also. He is perpetuating the toxic family dynamic instituted by your family of origin, and upheld by his father, Peter


Pan. You were/are a "good enough" mother. Perfect ones don't exist. Warm, loving, supportive, generous---ten grand so his wife could keep her place at law school etc. That should be more than enough. Face it, he enjoys playing the Victorian father,

and holding his mother to account for every infraction, real or imagined, while being virtually immune from any personal accountability re his behaviour toward you. Nothing you do is ever good enough, he is
ashamed of growing up "poor" in his eyes, unlike his wife who grew up privileged. He is a class whore, who worships Mammon.

Let him go before this destroys you." Ouch, but Didier is right. I have tried everything I know to find a way to have a healthy relationship with my son. I can't. I concede defeat. I hope someday to be able to release my feelings that somehow I failed him.

It is a terrible thing to realise that you no longer like your son, and haven't for several years.
 
Cookie said:
A sad story, Sassycakes, and very strange behavior on the part of your brother. Could there be some early family history that you might not know about, perhaps he had psychological problems.
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Truthfully I believe it had something to do with his wife. When they got married she broke all ties with her family and didn't talk to them for many years. After they didn't need my parents help anymore,I believe little by little she turned him against our family. She always picked on my sister and hated my sisters husband. The only time she would be nice to me was when she needed someone to do things for her children. Her favorite phrase was "Go ask Auntie,she'll do it for you". Her oldest child was only 8 yrs younger than I was and he sent me letters all the time after she stopped contact with us. He still calls me a lot and was heartbroken when my parents passed away.
 
I was about to start a new thread but if no one minds (obviously too late if someone does but you know what I mean) I will post it here, as it has to do with the topic and is taken from the "World family policy forum" 2000, Brigham Young University, Utah.

I wonder whether anyone will engage with the arguments put forward by Professor Akira Morita of Tokyo University for me? Quote:

www.law2.byu.edu/wfpc/forum/2000/WFPF2000.pdf



Brief extracts:
"Here I would like to point out only that the United States, as the pioneer of the development of children’s law in the twentieth century, is the very country that has experienced most intensively the significance and gravity of the conflict between organic human relations and right based relations. I would like to quote a passage from a dissertation written in 1992 by legal scholar Dr James Lucier that provided a theoretical foundation for the anti-ratification movement: What is missing in the Convention is the underlying idea of rights for families. . . . By endowing the child with legal autonomy, that is to say, enjoying rights independently of the family, the new doctrine puts the family in the position of mere care-givers, bound to the observance of the child’s rights. Every child becomes the adversary of the parents, at least in the potential, and the adversary of brothers and sisters in competition for rights. . . . By destroying the human factor in human relationships, the advocate of autonomy, especially the autonomy of children, will create a society which lacks the principles of cohesiveness and common purpose necessary to its common existence.

Break

I do not wish to be understood as suggesting that the concept of children’s rights in itself is completely meaningless. The reality is that within the increasing complexity of modern society, parental authority has become dysfunctional and abusive, and we must recognize that there are many cases in which the child’s right to protection is compelled to take on the role of an emergency fire brigade. Even in such cases, however, we need to remember the words of Josef Goldstein, that “law [and rights] may be able to destroy human relationships, but it does not have the power to compel them to develop.”10 In other words, rights cannot be an Aladdin’s lamp that brings happiness. What children need most is the relationship itself, not an isolated benefit conferred in the name of rights. If we forget that law and rights have such limitations and think of the “Convention on the Rights of the Child” and its catalogue as a “magna carta for children,”11 we will be walking into the myth and fantasy of twentieth century that children’s rights constitute.


Abridged Conclusion
We have taken a look at two aspects of the paradoxes raised today by the concept of children’s rights. What should we look for in order to head off the dangers pregnant in such paradoxes? I want to conclude by searching for clues in terms of a reassessment of the image of modern man that lies behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy. As I have mentioned, behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy is the surrealistic view of the child as “a little acorn that grows up autonomously.” It soon becomes plain to anyone that this view, when illuminated by the light of ordinary everyday experience, is lacking in realism. It is no more than an idealization and romanticization of autonomy. Nevertheless, why is this concept so highly contagious that it is becoming a fixture in today’s international conventions and conquering the western world? When we get to the bottom of the matter, we arrive at the modernistic image of man, dating from the eighteenth century onward, that regards complete autonomy in itself as a legitimate possibility and holds it up as the ultimate ideal. That is, the ideal depicts the individual as the “lone rights-bearer” who has cast off all restrictions and connections and is self determining and self-contained. What props up this ideal is a passion for emancipation—to throw off the shackles that bind and thereby gain freedom. The appearance of the child’s right to autonomy that we are witnessing today is none other than a symbolic event that tells us that this ideal of modern man has finally reached down, two hundred years after the French Revolution, to the intermediating body positioned as the very basis of society—the family."
WORLD FAMILY POLICY FORUM 2000, Brigham Young University, Utah.
 
Shalimar, sorry things are rough for you and your son right now and hope things smooth out. I brought up my son on my own too and we've had plenty of ups and downs. I find what we seem to need and what gets us through is to admit our vulnerabilities, admit our mistakes and apologize, even when we are not really to blame, for things that happened years ago, like bad choices, all kinds of things. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for us.
 
Cookie said:
Shalimar, sorry things are rough for you and your son right now and hope things smooth out. I brought up my son on my own too and we've had plenty of ups and downs. I find what we seem to need and what gets us through is to admit our vulnerabilities, admit our mistakes and apologize, even when we are not really to blame, for things that happened years ago, like bad choices, all kinds of things. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for us.
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Thanks Cookie. I agree wholeheartedly. I have done my best to stand accountable/apologise, it just never seemed to be enough, and it is one sided.
 
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