Actor/Director Rob Reiner found dead in home, apparent 'homicide'

[StarSong]

I'm afraid that your impression of the 12 Step programs --most especially AA-- is quite lacking. Perhaps your misunderstandings are based on a few folks who have not been ready or able to practice the program. That is common enough. But of the people who are serious about getting clean or sober, the success rate is phenomenal. As AA co-founder Bill W. stated, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."

Yeah, I get it. But nearly all in AA have taken many whacks at that pinata before finding lifelong success, thus the 8% figure.

A few years ago I walked a dear friend through rehab. As is my habit, I researched AA and various rehabs up one side and down the other so my knowledge is far from lacking. I personally know alcoholics who found eventual success with AA and others who found success without ever going to AA.

The unstated but obvious first step for AA is "Stop drinking." Not all stick with that for the rest of their lives after starting the program.

I started smoking when I was 17 and tried to stop many, many times. My overall success rate at quitting was less than 8%, believe me. Much less than 1%, in fact. However, I eventually quit for good at age 30, so the last go-round was 100% successful. Within a year I stopped thinking about cigarettes altogether.

It all depends on how one looks at percentages and statistics. To me, a 100% successful program is defined by no relapses or recidivism. AA can't make that claim - not by a long shot.

 

[JustDave]

It all depends on how one looks at percentages and statistics.

Also methodology of the research, and criteria used to measure success. I just looked around the internet this morning trying to find current statistics and was given pages of rehab facilities and recovery programs, all claiming astounding recovery rates, but no descriptions of how the research was done. Only one gave the criteria used to measure success, and it included, get this, heavy drinkers that now drink only occasionally. The information struck me about as reliable as ads for weight loss programs.

One link did not represent any particular program or facility, but did compare data on four different types of recovery; 1)rehab facilities in general, 2)support groups (which would include AA), 3)Do it your-selfers and 4)Cognitive Behavior Therapy. All reported much higher statistics than I have ever heard before. The highest, although not significantly higher, was #4 Cognitive Behavior Therapy.

 

[WhatInThe]

As noted it's how bad one wants it just like fitness or controlling weight. All sorts of diets and workouts out there but it comes down to how bad one wants it. Probably winds up being a combination of things including the timing of events and the consequences suffered ie a bottom.

I've always heard ignoring negative consequences is sign of addiction but if the addict won't or can't take it anymore that bottom maybe the one that motivates sobriety. This is one of the reasons for no enabling or partaking in so called harm reduction. Some think enabling and harm reduction simply may delay the inevitable. They say get out of the addicts way and let them hit a bottom-hard.

Im reading about some of the stuff Nick Reiner was getting including an allowance and being allowed to stay in the guest house. Again he needed to earn every privilege or dollar after a certain point.. And that includes being a compliant patient for any medical issues and participating in programS.

 

[JustDave]

As noted it's how bad one wants it.

That was it for me. If you are committed, you will do it. Some will say, "Well I was committed, and I wanted it, but I can't stop." The thing is that commitment and desire come in degrees. They are motivated by things like bottoms, or in my case, a frightening and accelerating downward spiral, with no bottom in sight.

 

[ChiroDoc]

AA's success rate is phenomenal when you ignore that part that is dismal. That's not now statistics are intended to be interpreted. People who are serious about sobriety have a better chance of getting sober no matter how they do it, AA or on their own. You can't just count the successes and claim 100% success rate.

I agree that for those who achieve success, the experience is often phenomenal, but it is personally phenomenal, not statistically phenomenal. People in AA can get the impression that AA is phenomenally successful, because those that AA does not help are not there. The meetings are a niche group that does not represent the much larger group.

Dave, I'm not sure where you're getting your misinformation. Are you for some reason biased against AA? Keep in mind that when you publicly denigrate a program that works, someone who reads your opinions might stay away from a fellowship that could help them.

The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, p. xx, 4th Edition, says:

“Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn’t want the program. But great numbers of these–about two out of three–began to return as time passed.”

 

[Paco Dennis]

Dave, I'm not sure where you're getting your misinformation.

From the information I have found, Dave has a pretty accurate understanding of AA, and it's possible success or possible failure. It seems like there are more ways than one to skin this cat. : )

 

[Della]

Im reading about some of the stuff Nick Reiner was getting including an allowance and being allowed to stay in the guest house. Again he needed to earn every privilege or dollar after a certain point.. And that includes being a compliant patient for any medical issues and participating in programS.

I don't think that would have done anything to help Nick at all.

Psychotic episodes in schizophrenia are like waking nightmares. Imagine having a nightmare that snakes were all over the floor, then imagine waking up and you still see snakes all over the floor. Having those hallucintaions in the guest house or in an alley in the city won't make any difference to them.

Neurotransmitters are flooding the ill persons brain in a snow storm of confusion. Thoughts are sent to the hearing center and received as voices from the outside. In an effort to make some sense of the overwhelming fear they experience they have delusions that are common to many schizophrenics, like that the doctors are going to implant tracking devices in their brain and the medication is the government's attempt to control them. The paranoia makes them think the car that just went down the street was the enemy looking for them.

And a very common delusion is that their parents are not their true parents, but aliens dressed to look like them. Sometimes they think the only way to save their parents is to kill the, "aliens." There is no logic in psychosis.

So thinking that the violence of Nick's attack was because he hated his parents, may be just the opposite, he may have been trying to set them free.

If the Reiners had cut Nick off and put him out on the street, it would only have made his condition deteriorate more quickly, he would not have been lucid enough to get a job anymore than he could benefit from rehab. It just would have made his parents worry more.

 

[JustDave]

I found the AA community to provide a worthwhile alternative to bars and nightly drinking. Open discussion meetings would sometimes offer helpful ways to deal with various triggers, especially when some members would set aside the AA doctrine and speak from personal experience. I went to meetings for 15 years almost nightly, because on occasion there were useful gems I knew I would miss if I skipped meetings.

But I didn't see anything like the statistics you and Bill Wilson report, not even close. In fact my introduction to recovery rates in AA being a more like 5-10 percent as it was across the board for the alcoholic community overall came from old timers in the program itself, who admittedly had regrets, but felt (as I did) that being in that range was worth the effort. And I even learned by watching those who couldn't manage to stay sober and were in and out and back in and then out again, if it was only that I could not afford to treat my own recovery so cavalierly.

I never managed or needed to become so devoted to AA to believe that AA was going to work for everyone if they would only fully submit to the 12 steps, as some claim. But that was 30 years ago. Today we have alternatives that reach a wider audience. AA is still a huge player, and can be a good choice for many alcoholics. The bottom line is to get sober using whatever way works best for each individual. But whatever path is chosen requires a deep commitment to not taking that first drink. That's the secret than transcends all paths to recovery.

@ChiroDoc I would not steer anyone away from AA if that was their choice, nor would I make unrealistic promisses. Recovery takes effort, planning, strategy, and self understanding. It's not handed to us.

 

[TeePee]

I have an anecdotal story, too, and maybe it illustrates why today's rehab programs have such high recidivism rates.

In 1965, my paternal uncle admitted himself into an in-patient rehab facility for his severe alcoholism. His father, my grampa, paid $8,000 up-front to get him in, saying "If you fall off the wagon, you have to pay me back. Stay sober, and you don't owe me anything."

Anyway, the treatment back then was brutal, but it was very effective. Depending on their preference, an aid escorted the patients to either a cocktail lounge or a tavern, both located right there at the facility, and allowed them to drink as much as usual. They were then walked back to their room and injected with an antabuse that made them piss, sweat, and vomit the alcohol out of their systems all freaking night. Next day, they got to go get drunk again, got the shot of antabuse again, and suffered all night ...again.

When patients got to a point where they were vomiting and sweating just from hearing the keys to the bar jingling, or seeing the aid who carried them walk into their room, they entered the counseling phase of treatment. They got 2 private sessions a week with a psychiatrist who had a PhD, and 5 group sessions a week headed by a licensed councilor who specialized in addiction therapy. Weekends were for relaxation and what they called game-therapy.

My uncle played a sort of guessing game where he and a therapist used a game board that looked like the floor-plan of a house, and little figures representing himself, his wife, and their kids, and he had to answer questions like "How did you respond?" and "How did your wife respond?" by moving the figures around the board. For example, his wife dumped his whiskey down the kitchen sink, he slapped her around in the dining room, kids ran to the playroom, wife ran to the bedroom, he went to the garage and tore shit up....etc.

Six weeks later, he was sober for life. For a while, he felt ill every time he drove past a bar, he'd cry every time he got near the kitchen sink, and he and a friend remodeled his garage. Some of that was guilt, and he moved passed it after a few weeks, thanks to rehab-maintenance sessions with his psychiatrist. (the $8,000 included a six week post-discharge maintenance program)

Sober, my uncle became the best dad a kid could want, a devoted husband, a reliable worker, and a great friend.

But the treatments that got him there are considered abuse now. And, of course, having cocktail lounges and taverns at a rehab facility is totally illegal....tho' I see no difference between that and doling out free methadone and antidepressants to treat drug addicts.

I've never looked into it, but I bet a gazillion nuthins that the old rehab methods worked way, way better than what's done now. (and no one died)

I bet you're right!