Are there ANGELS?

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I don't understand why anyone has to prove anything to anybody else. We only live once and as long as we do no harm why can't we just believe the way we want to?
 

Yes, I knew that Homeschoolie...God still loved him.

PVC...Possible answers to your question are limitless. What if all the severely handicapped people are really Angels?
Hebrews 13:2 says "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares". Angels look like any one of us.

We just don't know because the possibilities are endless.

I've said all I can say. I'm not saying it's not hard. God never said it would be easy either. He said we will all go through trials and tribulations. But life here and now is just a blink in the whole picture. We all just need to unselfishly do our very best that we can and look for the blessings all around us. And help others, give and receive love, and help our planet in whatever way we can.
 
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PVC said:
I think the BIGGEST problem I have with religion is that each religion believes they alone will go to ''heaven'' and everyone else will go to "hell''.
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I'm Christian. I don't believe in Hell. A lot of us are open-minded.
 

Olivia said:
I don't understand why anyone has to prove anything to anybody else. We only live once and as long as we do no harm why can't we just believe the way we want to?
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Olivia, no one here on this thread is saying that the others have to believe what we believe, this is just a DEBATE.

Lara and I are at opposite ends of the debate, and so far neither of us is disrespecting the other by calling them a ''fool, stupid, ignorant'' etc. As long as the dialogue is civil, I want to and even enjoy the back and forth. It's doubtful that either of us will change our mind.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall said to describe the principle of free speech :
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
It has been erroneously attributed to Voltaire, when she wrote his biography under the pseudonym of S. G. Tallentyre
 
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Lara said:
I've said all I can say. I'm not saying it's not hard. God never said it would be easy either. He said we will all go through trials and tribulations.
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He also said "I am the Lord God Who HEALS Thee", "Ask and you will receive, give and it shall be given to you, pressed down and running over", "He (jesus) healed ALL who came to him", "He (jesus) healed ALL their diseases and infirmities", "I am coming back soon" and thousands of other Promises that just are not true.
Millions of people have wasted lifetimes with unwavering, deep, unquestioning, strong, laser beam focused faith, lived excellent loving, giving, compassionate lives and the God of the bible never showed up for them.

He ignores all of his promises so can't be trusted to show up for people at end of life!
Since he cant be trusted to do what he says now he can't be trusted to show up for us at the end.

It doesn't matter that I paraphrased from memory so these don't say exactly what YOUR version says since there are hundreds of translations of the bible saying these differently!
 
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Lara said:
Yes, I knew that Homeschoolie...God still loved him.
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You're saying that God loved Hawking by giving him that devastating disease starting at age 29 or so? Do you know how he died? His ALS eventually paralyzed his muscles until he was unable to breathe. He suffocated to death. Some loving!
 
That is what I was saying. Why does it even have to be a debate? And I'm talking about all sides with their beliefs. But, hey, that's human beings, So what the heck am I expecting. However as an individual I can do that. We do everything possible it seems. to separate ourselves. And to think all humans dead and alive today all came our of Africa and look how diverse we've become to the extent of killing each other because of our differences. We'll keep doing that until the end of days, whether that be a giant sun burning our planet to a crisp or our version of God coming back down to earth to correct things. Take you choice.
 
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This discussion is taking some interesting turns. Two issues have recently been raised: suffering and difference. It brings to mind a book I read in my teens - Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Huxley was from a renowned scientific family and he depicted a godless Utopia where Science had created a perfect society and perfect humans using selective breeding of people ex utero. Nurtured in "test tubes" people were programmed for their role in life by careful indoctrination even before they became sentient. Disease was conquered because for every disease there was an inoculation and suffering was eliminated by the plentiful availability of a psychotropic drug that produced euphoric feelings without side effects.

In this brave new world, without the need for women to bear children, there is no need for marriage and sex is freely available to all, in fact it is considered rude to refuse it to anyone seeking congress. There is no need of any god and the only obligation of people is to stay within their biologically ordained strata of society and to be happy.

In contrast Huxley introduces a character who is primitive, a savage in the eyes of members of this society. He had been raised away from this society because his mother was an outcast for having allowed herself to become pregnant with him. His education was gained from two books - the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible. His head is filled with dangerous ideas of love, morality and sinfulness.

This book had a profound effect on me. It made me realise that to be fully human we need to embrace a world in which we experience pain and disappointment, grapple with right and wrong and allow ourselves and others the freedom to be different. It is also a world where we can feel joy and ecstasy in nature and human interaction but where despair and misery is the other side of that coin. This is the world created for us and there is wisdom and compassion in the design. Any world created by humankind, designed to eliminate all misery, is inferior to the one we are born into. Life in all its fulness is what Jesus offered to humanity. He did not serve it up fully cooked on a plate. We have to be co-creators of our world and Jesus pointed to the best way to do this.

At the time I read this book I was a science student and an atheist. Looking back I think I can see what Huxley was wrestling with. They are the same things mankind has always struggled to understand, and always will. This struggle is the basis of all religions and is why our species is so different to all else on this planet. We are not just flesh and blood - we are also spirit.
 
Warrigal said:
This book had a profound effect on me. It made me realise that to be fully human we need to embrace a world in which we experience pain and disappointment, grapple with right and wrong and allow ourselves and others the freedom to be different. It is also a world where we can feel joy and ecstasy in nature and human interaction but where despair and misery is the other side of that coin. This is the world created for us and there is wisdom and compassion in the design. Any world created by humankind, designed to eliminate all misery, is inferior to the one we are born into. Life in all its fulness is what Jesus offered to humanity. He did not serve it up fully cooked on a plate. We have to be co-creators of our world and Jesus pointed to the best way to do this.
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I disagree with your bolded statement above.

Brave New World sounds like a Utopia to me. Eventually, when humans have used and abused the earth's resources and those resources, like drinking water, have become scarce, the only solution is to choose the best of the best of humans to be able to survive on this planet. Not in our lifetime, but it will happen.

Something similar, but not as restrictive, is the movie "Gattaca'' where the same thing is done, but in Gattaca the ''inferior and imperfect'' are just saddled with the menial jobs.
 
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Olivia said:
That is what I was saying. Why does it even have to be a debate? And I'm talking about all sides with their beliefs. But, hey, that's human beings, So what the heck am I expecting. However as an individual I can do that. We do everything possible it seems. to separate ourselves. And to think all humans dead and alive today all came our of Africa and look how diverse we've become to the extent of killing each other because of our differences. We'll keep doing that until the end of days, whether that be a giant sun burning our planet to a crisp or our version of God coming back down to earth to correct things. Take you choice.
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If debates make you uncomfortable, you don't have to participate or even read the thread. Ignore us.

Some people actually enjoy debates. They even have courses in school and college where they encourage debate. We humans are very different in our reasonings, that is why there are thousands of religions and thousands of political differences and thousands of different lifestyles. Like the French say, "Vive la difference!"
 
PVC said:
I disagree with your bolded statement above.

Brave New World sounds like a Utopia to me. Eventually, when humans have used and abused the earth's resources and those resources, like drinking water, have become scarce, the only solution is to choose the best of the best of humans to be able to survive on this planet. Not in our lifetime, but it will happen.

Something similar, but not as restrictive, is the movie "Gattaca'' where the same thing is done, but in Gattaca the ''inferior and imperfect'' are just saddled with the menial jobs.
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Yes, I have seen the movie Gattaca. I think in the movie and in Huxley's book the point is made that to create any form of Utopia there must be restrictions on freedom and/or diversity. Eventually all that is created is dystopia. Humanity does not do well without freedom and something to strive for. We are not automatons, thank God.
 
PVC said:
If debates make you uncomfortable, you don't have to participate or even read the thread. Ignore us.

Some people actually enjoy debates. They even have courses in school and college where they encourage debate. We humans are very different in our reasonings, that is why there are thousands of religions and thousands of political differences and thousands of different lifestyles. Like the French say, "Vive la difference!"
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You are totally misunderstanding me. I have been on debate boards for a couple of decades.

No, what I am saying is that why do people have to argue each other about their beliefs in the first place if no harm is being done by these beliefs?: What is the purpose?
 
Olivia said:
You are totally misunderstanding me. I have been on debate boards for a couple of decades.

No, what I am saying is that why do people have to argue each other about their beliefs in the first place if no harm is being done by these beliefs?: What is the purpose?
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Debates have nothing to do with ''harm being done'', they're about differences of opinion.

I don't care if people are religious. The only religions I condemn are those that inflict pain or slavery or forbid freedom of choice. That is one of MANY reasons why I love the US, freedom to be what I want to be as long as I obey the laws of the country.
 
Lara said:
@Knight, there will always be Good and Evil because we were created with the ability to choose between the two. God wanted us to choose Good but unfortunately the world has turned their back on God. So heinous crimes are the result. As for the children who died. You may have heard me say this before, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He took those children home and surrounded them with perfect love and security.
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@Knight, there will always be Good and Evil because we were created with the ability to choose between the two. God wanted us to choose Good but unfortunately the world has turned their back on God. So heinous crimes are the result. As for the children who died. You may have heard me say this before, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He took those children home and surrounded them with perfect love and security.

Obviously evil people were part of the origin & using a fallen angel "Satan" as an excuse or scapegoat for what was inherit in the supposed creation is somehow ignored.

Genesis 1:26 New Living Translation (NLT)
26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1:26&version=NLT
Then to further the truth that evil was part of the loving God the bible has a lot of references to the loving God killing kids. Really strange to me is the story of Noah & the logic of killing all living things except for Noah & his family. That would have been the prime time to rid earth of those that choose to be evil. Why would that loving supernatural being want to continue what was an error?

http://commontruth.com/ChildrenKilled.html
 
PVC said:
Debates have nothing to do with ''harm being done'', they're about differences of opinion.

I don't care if people are religious. The only religions I condemn are those that inflict pain or slavery or forbid freedom of choice. That is one of MANY reasons why I love the US, freedom to be what I want to be as long as I obey the laws of the country.
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This is going round in circles. You're the one who said this is a debate and some people like it,

I don't even understand your answer, So your argument is against religions that restrict freedom or cause pain or suffering. Where in this thread have you encountered that kind of belief be promulgated?
 
Gary O' said:
After reading the dialogue in this thread, and it evolving into is there a god, and on to hearing voices and the application of lithium, it so reminded me of something I posted in wunna my threads....

Sorry for posting again, but I need it fresh in my own mind from time to time


seems I first wrote this eons ago now, but only 20 some years ago;


I just watched the movie 'Shine' last night

.....reminded me of my eldest son

was hard to hold emotion thru some parts

was much harder for my Lady

but we remained

riveted

My son
Excelled in academics
Skipped grades
Won awards
Became somewhat sought after
Mensa
Artistic things hung in municipal halls
Life for him was just too slow apace
Stayed up for days at a time
He’d regurgitate all his thoughts to his mother and I
It was a bit suffocating

Then one day he came to me in my shop
....and began crying, telling me he felt he was going crazy,
but unable to put his feelings into words
I hugged him
Told him all kids go thru puberty and change
‘this too shall pass’ kinda thing

The next years are a blur
I guess maybe I never have wished to dwell on the events in those years

I’ll try to piece some together on my own, as I know better than to ask my lady


He ended up in prison
At 19
Advancing from a minimum security facility to OSP
And on to ‘thunderdome’
Where nobody wants to go

Tried to arrange visits
Rejected countless times
Talked to OSP counselors
‘forget your son, concentrate on your other children’

We got a call
OSP does not call anyone
‘You need to see your son’

The visiting area was like a staging zone for zoo critters
Steel tables, benches, cemented in
Chain link walls and doors
He was led in by guards
Shackled head to toe
Made to sit
Unseeing eyes
No recognition
Indistinguishable utterances
He stunk to high heaven
Never looked our way

On the way home I had to pull over, off the freeway
I don’t remember the last time I cried
Maybe as a small child...
But
Never wept like that in my life
And have yet too since
Bitter
Helpless
Godless
Utter hopelessness

A week (?) later we got another call
He was being transferred to the psych ward across the street
Where ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’ was filmed

We were told he had quit eating entirely
Weighed 90 lbs
A guard carried him in his arms across the street

We were led to the visiting area
Typical booth like situation for visitors
Only, the other side of the glass was something from a zombie movie
We got to watch him attempt to drink milk and cry

My lady had a very hard time
I went alone
Weeks of visiting later, he was released
Just like that

After 7 years of maximum security

to us

I do not do well when cleaning up men with uncontrolled body functions

Triage
Nut bins
Meds

It’s all a blur

Somewhere in there, when he was still cognizant, I did a bit of a fraught thing…

We talked about his options
He wanted to go camping

So

Him and I packed his meager belongings

Bought him some basic camp stuff

Drove him to the Trask river area


And dropped him off

while it began to rain

Ever do something that gave you immediate relief, knowing the end result would probably not be optimal?

On the way back home, I tried not to think.

Still

Thoughts crept in

Maybe he’d just lie there curled in his sleeping bag
Inert
Oblivious
Until days later large birds of prey would dine on his remains

It’s all a blur

They found him 300 miles south
Incoherent

The Tillamook women’s mental health facility asked us to take him back 'he can't stay here'

More triage

Got him hooked up with a place called Luke-Dorf

General population nut bin for semi-functional goofballs
Then what they call the quad
Then paired up in a shared apartment
And now
On his own
On a budget

I figger the tax payer’s dollars for this are from this tax payer

During these times he’d ever so often not take his meds
Sometimes it was because they changed colors or shapes and he didn’t think they were right
Sometimes it was just because he thought he no longer needed them
Always ended with me going over there, reattaching his phone, and fishing his glasses outa the toilet.

He’s as functional now as you and me, first look.

As long as he takes his meds.

Sorry
This is jumbled time line mess
My lady can recite the events like they happened yesterday
7 or more years of them
I will not take her there


Thing is...today, he's a Christian

Not some goofball religious freak...just knows God...and at peace

I consider it a bit of a miracle

And I do believe in angels...in spite of ourselves
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Hooray!!!!!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
 
Olivia said:
This is going round in circles. You're the one who said this is a debate and some people like it,

I don't even understand your answer, So your argument is against religions that restrict freedom or cause pain or suffering. Where in this thread have you encountered that kind of belief be promulgated?
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Sorry for not being clear. I was trying to say that it doesn't matter to me what religious people believe as long as ^ ^ ^ ^ . The religion(s) on this thread do not do the above in bold. We're just debating the differences in philosophy regarding religion and the belief in God and Angels. Hope I made myself clear this time.
 
I agree with you about philosophy being the crux of the matter as to explaining beliefs vis a vis religion and to other ways of looking at life as to who are we and what are we doing here and why. Atheism and agnosticism do the same and find purpose in Humanism and/or making one's own purpose such as in Existentialism.
 
Homeschoolie said:
Nope no anger, hurt etc. If there is any emotion it is that people still peddle false hope, false promises but their God never shows up and does as promised. This causes even more pain, hurt and suffering for people. Just looking at facts, truth and the reality of life: I Extensively researched proclaimed Miracles. Me, and everyone else who has tried, have found little or no documented proof, just hearsay most of the time. Only things that are stated to be miracles and that have any documented proof are the "soft" healings that the human body and/or immune system is able to heal and does so for people of every spiritual practice and belief. Even Satanists and Atheists experience the "Soft" healings.

Science is a better God then God is. Especially now with Stem Cell technology. The other is determining how to turn on the creation switch in the body. Our bodies know how to create whatever is needed. It did it when we were in the womb. It can do it again. The day is coming when we will be able to regrow teeth, eyes, cartilage, human organs etc. I just hope they hurry up and I live long enough to be here when this is a reality to help end human suffering.
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I am sorry you believe this way. When a baby is born, that is a miracle, when the sun shines, that is a miracle, when you take your next breath that is a miracle. There are so many miracles out there, small and big that you don't even begin to be able to count them. I believe different. I believe in God as my heavenly Father and He works miracles all the time all around me. Besides the miracle thing, God is the one allowing mankind to discover stem cell research in the time He wants us to. All things, are created for His good purpose at His timing. All things. Sure, there is human suffering. Always has been. But, God placed the stars in the sky, too numerous to count for a purpose, and He takes care of His creation all the time. Check it out. Set out to prove there is no God. Try it. Many atheists have done it.
 
I DEFINITELY believe in a higher Power - God/Universe/Angels. Long story short, this is soooo true. When my hubby and I were going through a very rough patch.. I had a dream I was walking with God and he told me (not verbatim) that I will be going through a hard time and don't worry because I will be ok. And YES.. I went through a very rough period and I am ok. Hubby and I were a week away from Divorce but we end up getting back together and now we get along SO MUCH better.... 35 years married and still a work in progress but so far, so GOOD!!
 
fancicoffee13 said:
I am sorry you believe this way. When a baby is born, that is a miracle, when the sun shines, that is a miracle, when you take your next breath that is a miracle. There are so many miracles out there, small and big that you don't even begin to be able to count them. I believe different. I believe in God as my heavenly Father and He works miracles all the time all around me. Besides the miracle thing, God is the one allowing mankind to discover stem cell research in the time He wants us to. All things, are created for His good purpose at His timing. All things. Sure, there is human suffering. Always has been. But, God placed the stars in the sky, too numerous to count for a purpose, and He takes care of His creation all the time. Check it out. Set out to prove there is no God. Try it. Many atheists have done it.
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Me and millions of others already have...never showed up ....guess he is to busy holding up stars and taking care of the rest of his creation
 

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