Australia’s new defence pact with UK and US

Taiwan could be invaded by China and conquered.
Logistics wins wars, not armies, unless A-bombs are involved.
The Western World wants allies, but only for political unity, not to engage in war with China.
We hope it will serve as a deterrent. it won't.

The only weapon we have against China is economics.
It takes money to build military arsenals, WE Provided It.
 

Leonie said:
We've already been told in no uncertain terms that our new nuclear subs will not be welcome in New Zealand waters. So we've managed to piss off France and New Zealand as well as China. Well done Australia. :rolleyes:

Ardern bans Australian nuclear subs from NZ waters​

Despite welcoming the US and Britain’s engagement in the Indo-Pacific, New Zealand’s position on nuclear-powered vessels ‘remains unchanged’.

From 'The Australian', no point in including a link, it will just hit a paywall.
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We don't have any yet and won't have any for at least a decade, possibly two. The Australian is just being sensational.
 
Alligatorob said:
I would hope that makes no difference. Socialists or Capitalists we should have enough common interest in the world to be allies. What matters is being on the side of democracy and freedom, otherwise what folks decide to do within their own countries should not matter much.
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I tend to agree!

As the world gets smaller we need to learn to coexist.

I believe that we need to support our allies but I'm not so sure that we need to defend them.

"In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed; it must be achieved." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
 
I heard the President speaking about this. He couldn't even remember Morrison's name when he introduced him. He called him "that fellow from down under." What is with this man?
 
It is sad after the threat of world facism was destroyed in WWII China has become the most dangerous nation on the planet with plans to rule all of the Asian part of the world.
 
Alligatorob said:
Is it really China or the totalitarian Chinese government? I would think a more democratic government would be easier to get along with. But have no idea when, if, or how that will happen.
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It's the CCP. Almost everything I pick up is made in China. We have allowed them to gain industrial superiority over us. More of our goods that we buy should be made here in the U.S. Sometimes, I believe that our government is in bed with them, which would allow the Chinese to produce billions of dollars worth of goods. Our trade deficit with China is about $350 billion. Why did we let this happen? I think it is possible that a lot of money changed hands.
 
oldman said:
It's the CCP
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Yes, I believe you are right, however I think they are no longer communists, if they ever were. Just totalitarian, that's worse.
oldman said:
Our trade deficit with China is about $350 billion
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That worries me also, however we have long run trade deficits and it doesn't seem to have hurt us (https://research.stlouisfed.org/pub...pses/2019/05/17/historical-u-s-trade-deficits ). I don't know why, seems like it should.
oldman said:
Why did we let this happen?
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The free market, Americans care more about the cost of things than where they come from.
 
This is how bright our NT government is, you have to shake your head

darwinport2.jpg
Chinese company Landbridge paid $506 million for the 99 year lease of Darwin Port in 2015.

The Australian government may have to pay taxpayer-funded compensation to the Chinese company if its lease contract of Darwin Port is overturned on national security grounds, but experts say the government has no “immediate imperative” to terminate the deal.
 
Alligatorob said:
Yes, I believe you are right, however I think they are no longer communists, if they ever were. Just totalitarian, that's worse.

That worries me also, however we have long run trade deficits and it doesn't seem to have hurt us (https://research.stlouisfed.org/pub...pses/2019/05/17/historical-u-s-trade-deficits ). I don't know why, seems like it should.

The free market, Americans care more about the cost of things than where they come from.
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I noticed that when Clinton asked Congress to give China "most favored nation status" more of the things that were made here in the U.S. had suddenly been sent to China. Clinton's actions gave China a huge lift in the WTO and other countries also felt, and are still feeling the effects of that move. I was opposed to NAFTA, which was started by Reagan and then supported by old man Bush.

China does not, (but is working on), build passenger airplanes. Believe it or not, they lack the technology for such sophisticated systems in the avionics that both Airbus and Boeing have built upon over the previous many years. Both companies have very high level security and protection to their technology labs with the best surveillance equipment available. I have toured their facility and was impressed.
 
oldman said:
Clinton asked Congress to give China
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I suppose that was at a time when we believed that a more prosperous and open China would lead to more democratic government... doesn't seem to have worked.

I am a free trader, don't think the government should restrict consumer's access to goods from anywhere in the world. Except maybe for strong and unusual reasons such as trying to contain China short of military action. Not something to be taken lightly. The other exception might be to enforce patent and IP protections, but I really don't know how that works.
 
ah, stealing technology? thats a good one...who do you think stole the ability to make computer chips? hey? try japan. as to the use of nukes, well now I firmly believe for any nation to start that would be planet genocide.. Nobody will fire just one and firing several thousand would certainly fry the planet.....tawain(formosa)::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Formosa
 
jerry old said:
The only weapon we have against China is economics.
It takes money to build military arsenals, WE Provided It.
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Truth in this...

Back in the late 80's, when Jesse Jackson was running for President, he advocated for hemispheric unity - I rather agreed then, and still do...
 
If these three countries take on China with boots on the ground, China wins.
If these three countries take on China on the seas, the three countries win.
If these three countries take on China with air power, these three countries win because of the U.S. air power. We kick ass in the air. The U.S. has four new war planes that only government officials holding a TS clearance and has passed an SSBI investigation.
 
France's recalls its ambassadors to Australia and the US in response to a new submarine deal.

In an interview with the ABC, the French Ambassador to Australia, Jean-Pierre Thebault said he only learned of the Morrison government's decision to tear up the contract with Naval Group through media reports. (Shameful conduct IMO). There was no sign the French contract was in trouble and it is unclear how much it will cost us to scrap the contract.
 
It will cost a lot. On the other hand, with tensions escalating the way they are, the switch may be prudent. I won't live long enough to find out.

What worries me most is not money. It is the thought that we are entering another arms race. The winner is always the one with the deepest pockets.

In the lead up to WW I Germany attempted to challenge Britain's dominance as the top naval power and spent so much money building ships that their land army suffered. During the Cold War the USSR could not match the spending power of US and fell apart.

We never really learn the lessons of history, do we?
 
mellowyellow said:
France's recalls its ambassadors to Australia and the US in response to a new submarine deal.

In an interview with the ABC, the French Ambassador to Australia, Jean-Pierre Thebault said he only learned of the Morrison government's decision to tear up the contract with Naval Group through media reports. (Shameful conduct IMO). There was no sign the French contract was in trouble and it is unclear how much it will cost us to scrap the contract.
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Yes, I heard about that. Right now I'm pretty sure the US is more concerned about a ripple effect than this particular issue.
 
People our age ought to know what communism is like. We know about gulags and suppression of dissent and freedom. Those younger than us who witnessed the events in Tiananmen Square should too but by and large we have been fooling ourselves that somehow all that is in the past. We want to believe that Xi and Putin are not hard men who have no regard for anyone or any country that stands in the way of their goals.

I've been to China and everyone was sweet and kind to us. My grandson has been to Russia and Hubby and I once took an ocean cruise on the Leonid Sobinov during the Cold War. Again, everything was sweetness and light but that is mostly PR. Beneath the velvet glove there is still an iron fist.

Australia and Australians have been mesmerised by opportunities to trade profitably with China. So much so that without it our salad days will come to an end. It is time to rethink more than just submarines.
 
Warrigal said:
People our age ought to know what communism is like. We know about gulags and suppression of dissent and freedom. Those younger than us who witnessed the events in Tiananmen Square should too but by and large we have been fooling ourselves that somehow all that is in the past. We want to believe that Xi and Putin are not hard men who have no regard for anyone or any country that stands in the way of their goals.

I've been to China and everyone was sweet and kind to us. My grandson has been to Russia and Hubby and I once took an ocean cruise on the Leonid Sobinov during the Cold War. Again, everything was sweetness and light but that is mostly PR. Beneath the velvet glove there is still an iron fist.

Australia and Australians have been mesmerised by opportunities to trade profitably with China. So much so that without it our salad days will come to an end. It is time to rethink more than just submarines.
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This is why I have no ill-feelings toward the people of China. They didn't elect Xi and have no voice in the gov't.
 

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