Be honest....Are you secretly doubting the bible?

Sunny, no one told me I had to believe I came to it all on m own, in the quiet of my own personal thoughts. You mentioned proof, well I could argue with you all day about the amount of proof I have experienced personally as it everywhere but I won't. You see there lies the difference between myself and those on my side that believe as opposed you and the folks on your side that don't believe

Faith is that which you believe without proof, it wouldn't be called faith if God had a shingle on a corner store

The one thing that always baffles me though is those who claim there is no religion seem to do it in a very tough sort of way, using words like rubbish, and suggest folks who believe are braindead, yet the folks who believe talk about the faith gently and with compassion.

I would never try to get someone to come around to my way of thinking, actually I don't even think it can be done as it something that has to come to one directly. I do however feel a sadness for those folks who have no faith simply because I know what my faith does for me and I when I see folks with no belief system struggling with life's problems I feel pain for them.

XX Jeannine
 

Jeanine, not all ideas promulgated by the religious have been presented gently and with compassion. The Old Testament talks about killing those who do not observe the Sabbath properly. For hundreds of years, how many thousands (maybe millions?) were killed by Christians in the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition? How kind and full of compassion were the Puritans? How kind are modern fundamentalists to the rights of gay people, for instance?

The Muslims at their most extreme are responsible for most of the terrorism in the world, in the name of "faith." And even when not into extreme fanaticism, women have no rights and are required to cover up their faces and entire bodies, in the name of "religion."

Yes, some of the modern atheists have been pretty belligerent in their writing; maybe it's a reaction after having religion shoved down their throats.And maybe some of them are just not very nice people. Until pretty recently, not too many people dared to come out and say they were atheists or agnostics. Religion ruled the roost, and still does in many places.

As for faith being that which you believe without proof, well, anyone can believe anything they like. If someone believes in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, would you call that "faith?" Or would you call it nonsense?
 
There is a respected book by James Fowler (1981) that talks about faith and faith development in the same way that Piaget and Bruner talk about cognitive development and Kohlberg does for moral development.

Faith as a concept has more to do with trust than belief. Everyone has faith, even from infancy, but we place our faith in different things. As we mature we move from one developmental level to the next and this is always an uneasy transition because our old comfortable framework has become unsatisfactory and unworkable and the new stage does not arise fully formed like Venus arising from the waves.

Some people experience conversion at these times of flux, others refuse to let go of old certainties and become extremely rigid in their belief systems and practices.

Whether we are talking about religious faith or something more tangible like faith in modern science, the stages are the same. The adult stages 3 - 6 have these defining characteristics.

Stage 3 Synthetic-Conventional
Most people move on to this stage as teenagers. At this point, their life has grown to include several different social circles and there is a need to pull it all together. When this happens, a person usually adopts some sort of all-encompassing belief system. However, at this stage, people tend to have a hard time seeing outside their box and don't recognize that they are "inside" a belief system. At this stage, authority is usually placed in individuals or groups that represent one's beliefs.
[This is the stage in which many people remain.]

Stage 4 Individuative-Reflective
This is the tough stage, often begun in young adulthood, when people start seeing outside the box and realizing that there are other "boxes". They begin to critically examine their beliefs on their own and often become disillusioned with their former faith. Ironically, the Stage 3 people usually think that Stage 4 people have become "backsliders" when in reality they have actually moved forward.

Stage 5 Conjunctive Faith
It is rare for people to reach this stage before mid-life. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as a mystery and often return to sacred stories and symbols but this time without being stuck in a theological box.

Stage 6 Universalizing Faith
Few people reach this stage. Those who do live their lives to the full in service of others without any real worries or doubts.

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html
Click to expand...
 

I'm an atheist, however I'm not a proselytizing atheist. I figure some people need religion to keep them behaving like decent people. Then some folks use their religion to make hate sound reasonable.
 
As a Christian, I sometimes doubt some of the things that I have read in the Old Testament, especially in the book of Exodus. I may accept it, but believing it happened is different.
 
I apologize to the people whom I'm sure to offend but when I read the bible I found it to be filled with contradictions, violence and other nonsense. Many, if not most, self proclaimed christians have never read the bible and that can be proven by posting a totally made up bible quote on facebook and see how many likes and amens it gets. You can even make up the name of a bible chapter. No, I am not religious. lol :devilish:
 
I've always liked Bertrand Russell's "Decalogue for Liberals." Here it is (I especially like the last four):

Perhaps the essence of the Liberal outlook could be summed up in a new decalogue, not intended to replace the old one but only to supplement it. The Ten Commandments that, as a teacher, I should wish to promulgate, might be set forth as follows:

  1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.
  2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.
  3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.
  4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
  5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.
  6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
  7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.
  8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.
  9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.
  10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.
 
I believe that the whole human race is ona learning curve, what was once acceptable is not now, child labour jumps to mind, yes I know it still goes on in some places, I just believe that those folks are not as far along as others..yet. The same is true for womens rights, gay couples etc etc/

There is a difference between the old and new testaments. One might simply say that Jesus as the son of God came to us to update the handbook, so we went from an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. One might further ponder wether God himself is moving with the times.

My faith is very simple, I follow a few biblical rules that don't do any harm for even those who don't believe.eg I follow the ten commandments , do unto others etc


I have said enough, this is starting to sound like me preaching and I won't do that bit I think you get my drift.

This is me being more personal now. I am a pacifist, I would turn the other cheek so to speak, I would not be judgemental, this is a fine line sometimes and is hard but I do the best I can. I accept all folks as friends whatever their religion, colour, creed,etc etc. I would not own a gun, no point anyway as I would not use it. I try to focus on the good in people rather than the negative, this does not mean I cannot see a problem in someone but I try not to be judgemental about it.

I have many frends who feel as I do and I strongly feel that the more folks that do the less pain there will be in this world and I will give you an example.


If for some reason that would be amazing if everyone in the world woke up tomorrow morning and said. I will not pick up a weapon again.. can you imagine the difference there would be in the world immediately. Sounds carazy eh..but there are folks all over the world who used to fight who no longer do.. It is dream but not a bad one to have.

Of course this has nothing directly to do with religion. it is simply a personal choice for oneself.


I do agree with something that one poster wrote though and that is about religious folks who fight, kill etc etc, my answer that is the same as it would be to the proclaimed " devout" anybody who chooses to ignore what his own religion preaches and that he is simply not what he claims to be.

XX Jeanine
 
Warrigal said:
There is a respected book by James Fowler (1981) that talks about faith and faith development in the same way that Piaget and Bruner talk about cognitive development and Kohlberg does for moral development.

Faith as a concept has more to do with trust than belief. Everyone has faith, even from infancy, but we place our faith in different things. As we mature we move from one developmental level to the next and this is always an uneasy transition because our old comfortable framework has become unsatisfactory and unworkable and the new stage does not arise fully formed like Venus arising from the waves.

Some people experience conversion at these times of flux, others refuse to let go of old certainties and become extremely rigid in their belief systems and practices.

Whether we are talking about religious faith or something more tangible like faith in modern science, the stages are the same. The adult stages 3 - 6 have these defining characteristics.
Click to expand...
I aspire to reach stage six before I die. Who knows?
 
Do not go gentle into that good night,Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Dylan Thomas one of my hero's when it comes to poetry.

It is alleged tgat tgere is an alternative last line

"Just grab your pants and run like sh*te"!
 
aeron said:
Do not go gentle into that good night,Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Dylan Thomas one of my hero's when it comes to poetry.

It is alleged tgat tgere is an alternative last line

"Just grab your pants and run like sh*te"!
Click to expand...
Beautiful, my Welsh father used to recite Dylan Thomas to me when I was a child.
 

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