Be honest....Are you secretly doubting the bible?

AZ Jim

AZ Jim

R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
Location
SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Is there doubt in your mind about the Jesus story, virgin birth, heaven, hell, are you afraid you might pay later for your TRUE feelings, doubts? I am well into my 4th quarter of life and I would love to have faith but having spent a lot of time as a youth trying to find faith in many churches, I have become convinced that there is no hereafter for me or, regrettably anyone else. I will die with no hope of anything but that which I had before my birth........nothing.
 

I'm with you Jim. When you're dead, you're DEAD !

If others believe otherwise (Wishful thinking), so be it, if it gives them comfort that's fine with me.
 
I'm unsure about that.. I just don't know what happens to our spirits after death.. I like the idea of reincarnation... it's more comforting than the "when you're dead you're dead stance..
 

Although I was raised as a Catholic, there was always doubt. I'm not convinced of any life after death, and I don't practice any religion. Perhaps on my death bed I'll have a change of heart, some people only get religious when they're near death, and they're desperate for hope that there's something more after this life.
 
My conversion to non belief which took place in my early teens didn't involve much soul searching because I was never really committed to a conventional belief. I was familiar with the story of Christianity but because I wasn't pressured into believing that story I just didn't pay much attention to it. I guess I assumed my parents believed but we just never talked about it. So when at the age of 14 I decided to think about the subject, I concluded right off the bat that it was all much too preposterous to be true.
 
I am not a follower of any organized religion or doctrine and I never will be. I don't consider the Bible sacred and it's really irrelevant to me whether Jesus existed and, if so, whether his mother was a virgin. Although I respect scientific criteria, I have had some experiences in my life that science can't (or won't) explain. For that reason, I believe there exists something more than what we can detect with our senses or in a laboratory. Whether that means there is a God or an afterlife, I don't know.
 
As we age and our mortality become more "real", I seem to believe even more in an after-life. In '64, when I graduated from high school, I entered a college of divinity and studied to become a pastor. In my second year of college, I seemed to "stray", more believing that career was mostly about becoming a professional salesman. The more people you could convince to fill the pews, the more people were there to toss money into the collection plate, and the more you and your church would prosper. Was "success" saving souls or building bigger churches??
Over the years, I've seen more tears shed over church related "politics" and family issues than any other. In our society, these should be the two things that provide strength, not disappointment and stress. I've served on various boards in churches and taught classes in churches and, up until the past 7 to 8 years, been a fairly regular attendee. Somewhere, I lost interest in participating. Today, it's more about seeing the grandkids enjoy the fellowship and watch them participate in children's programs, etc.
I have a difficult time believing we just die and rot. Certainly, the physical body we know today dies. The brain, as we understand it today, dies. Something lives on. That something is not anything we can describe today or understand today. That mystery... that unknown is what hold my interest. That mystery is what keeps us going, wondering what is "next". Someone put us here for a purpose. Someone, somewhere is either "harvesting" an unknown from the human species that we will understand better in the after-life. Or, there is simply no purpose for life... for us every being put on this Earth.

But, I'm not going to worry about it. Not one of us knows when our time on this Earth is up. So, we live each day to its fullest. And, we live each day hoping the example we set is such that life becomes easier for those we leave behind.
 
The purpose of life is life. The "meaning" of life is what we make it. The idea of a God who looks after us, and of spending eternity with our deceased loved ones in Heaven is appealing. Who would not want to believe that? Unfortunately, everything I know about the world screams at the absurdity of both ideas. Its obvious to me, that the brain is all. When its gone, we're gone. Some of us leave before our bodies die. I have tried very hard to be a believer. I was the youngest Senior Deacon my church ever had. I just can not dismiss what science and my observations of the world tell me to be true. "Everything that has a beginning, has an ending. Make your peace with that and all will be well." Believing in the prospect of going to Hell, or possibly even worse, spending eternity, ( that's a very long time ), on my knees telling God how wonderful He is, does not sound nearly as much fun as taking a very long nap.
I am 82, and my wife died two weeks ago, so please don't tell me I will feel differently when facing the actual prospect of death.
My personal advice; go and enjoy every moment you have now. Make someone else happy today. This is it gang. When we're gone, we're gone.
 
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AZ Jim said:
Is there doubt in your mind about the Jesus story, virgin birth, heaven, hell, are you afraid you might pay later for your TRUE feelings, doubts? I am well into my 4th quarter of life and I would love to have faith but having spent a lot of time as a youth trying to find faith in many churches, I have become convinced that there is no hereafter for me or, regrettably anyone else. I will die with no hope of anything but that which I had before my birth........nothing.
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Of course I have doubt, even complete disbelief, about some things I read in the Bible. That is, if I read it literally word for word or as a scientific text.
Am I concerned about that? Not in the slightest.

That there exists something beyond ourselves and that this something is sentient and responsive is something that I do believe and I also believe that I have some connection with it. That something is that which we call God and is largely unknowable mystery. I'm not happy to dismiss this as a fairy story because of some personal experiences that convince me that it is a reality even if the reality is wrapped in myth and other stories.

As I read the bible I find that Jesus spent a lot of time teaching about the nature of God using stories that ordinary people can understand, but which also challenge us to reach out and encounter God for ourselves. He also devoted time to fleshing out the Old Testament teaching about true justice and how people should interact with each other. He used stories here too, rather than impose another set of onerous rules to follow. If these lessons are followed then Christianity becomes a way of life that is spiritual, reflective and practical rather than an organised religion. Trouble is, humans always want to codify everything and Christianity has morphed into a religion not unlike all the rest in many ways. Christianity is meant to be practised in community. Lone ranger Christians are missing the point.

Am I worried about the afterlife? Again, not at all. First, I'm not sure that there is an afterlife. Scientifically it is highly unlikely. However if there is something within us that is immortal then that something (soul, spirit, personality?) must the of same essence of the entity that we call God. If the essence of God is indeed love and forgiveness, then what do I have to fear? What do any of us have to fear? Either there is nothing or there is something that will not be bad. If there is judgement, perhaps some receive nothing and are deleted but others go on to something else but now I'm just burbling because none of us actually know.

Jesus certainly believed in heaven and made references to it several times but it was not his core message. His core message was love, forgiveness, compassion and service. He was countercultural in his time and is still the same today. The only source of his life and teachings is the New Testament books which is why I do take the bible seriously. Seriously does not mean that I pay a lot of attention to stories about magical virgin birth complete with wandering stars and choirs of angels or about graves opening up and releasing the dead at the moment of Jesus' death. I consider these stories to be literary metaphors. Seriously means I try to adopt the teachings that I can understand and relate to as my life principle and learn to be appreciative of life in all its fullness, including the good and the bad parts of it. If Heaven materialises, it's a bonus.
 
I'm of the belief that when you're gone, you're gone.
Physically.
But you'll always be in the memory of those still living.
Just like my folks, siblings, and friends are.
That's more than good enough for me.

Underock, My condolences on the loss of your wife.
 
Jingles said:
I'm of the belief that when you're gone, you're gone.
Physically.
But you'll always be in the memory of those still living.
Just like my folks, siblings, and friends are.
That's more than good enough for me.

Underock, My condolences on the loss of your wife.
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Thanks, Jingles. I'm with you 100%.
 
I was raised catholic and began having serious doubts at about age 14. I do believe we have a spirit and not just a body, but what happens to it I've no idea. It's comforting to think the spirit survives. I don't dismiss the idea of reincarnation.

People find comfort in the idea that their loved ones are looking down on them from heaven and that's fine with me. My DH is catholic and it's fine with him that I'm not. My sister, however, always tries to get me back to the church. There is a running joke that the two of them will sneak me into heaven when St. Peter isn't looking.
 
That's the hard part, Ameriscot,
For the non-believer, it doesn't matter much if someone believes in something that you think does not exist.
For them, Its serious business. If you do not believe, they really think there are horrific consequences, and are desperate to save you before its too late.
 
Underock1 said:
That's the hard part, Ameriscot,
For the non-believer, it doesn't matter much if someone believes in something that you think does not exist.
For them, Its serious business. If you do not believe, they really think there are horrific consequences, and are desperate to save you before its too late.
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Yes, my sister is also sure that our brother who has been 100% atheist for nearly 40 years is suddenly going to realize the catholic church was right and he'll come back to it. She says the reason he is a good person is because he was raised with a religion, and that nobody would know what was good or bad without a religion or some type of spirituality. I've given up arguing with her.
 
Ameriscot said:
Yes, my sister is also sure that our brother who has been 100% atheist for nearly 40 years is suddenly going to realize the catholic church was right and he'll come back to it. She says the reason he is a good person is because he was raised with a religion, and that nobody would know what was good or bad without a religion or some type of spirituality. I've given up arguing with her.
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In the name of getting along we rationalize by saying, "What harm is there if they are happy in their belief." The answer is how often they are unhappy because of it. It destroys relationships. How much more worth while to be home bonding with your family, than sitting in a pew, repeating meaningless phrases for an hour.
 
Underock1 said:
In the name of getting along we rationalize by saying, "What harm is there if they are happy in their belief." The answer is how often they are unhappy because of it. It destroys relationships. How much more worth while to be home bonding with your family, than sitting in a pew, repeating meaningless phrases for an hour.
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Yes, it certainly can destroy relationships. I don't live in the same country as my sister but see her every year. So there's no point in spending time arguing, so we try to stay away from that topic.
 
Ameriscot said:
Yes, my sister is also sure that our brother who has been 100% atheist for nearly 40 years is suddenly going to realize the catholic church was right and he'll come back to it. She says the reason he is a good person is because he was raised with a religion, and that nobody would know what was good or bad without a religion or some type of spirituality. I've given up arguing with her.
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This type of scenario was one of the reasons, Camus' The Stranger, went on my list of favorite books, just for the last chapters really put it up there. I wasn't a fan of the main character, but that ending was a breath of fresh air as it relates to this overall theme.

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DameW, I did like a lot of what you said about the essence of Christ, that was what I felt through most of my life and followed a lot of those beliefs in how I related to my fellow beings, it has only shifted some in latter years to some degree. I did the whole religious thing back and forth, I would pick up the bible read it through and through, but, I couldn't ever get into it, it just read like a book of fiction, but, I did like some of the elements. I did the whole bible study as a youngster and again in my late thirties even vocally accepted Christ as my savior, but, after many discussions at these bible studies and getting all the perspectives on a lot of the views from the people in these groups, my stomach began to churn and there was no way I could drink that kool aide much longer. There were just too many questions that had no logical answers and I delved and delved and tried to quiet my mind to convince myself to just let faith thing take over. I couldn't do it. Sometimes, it does feel nice to think of magical things when all else fails, but, I know for me, I'm just letting fantasy take over, not real belief in anything, just soothing my soul for a minute, when I think mom, my sisters are looking in on me.

Most of my family are quite religious, some to the point, I can't be in the same room with them for too long or my eye roll reflexes would cause me to have a seizure, but then there was my baby sister, she was a Jehovah's Witness, and I never tired of her company, she knew to leave it at the door she even spent family holidays my other siblings and me; of course we rarely mentioned the holiday itself, and we didn't always gather on the exact calendar date or we made no mention of the holiday name as to allow her and her kids to feel more comfortable in joining in with us all and she didn't make a big deal out of it, this took some negotiating in the very beginning, but we all worked it out.

I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others. Show me in your actions, as long as you have a good heart, your intentions toward me are what matter. I've watched some of the most horrific things transpire from the most religious and nonreligious, neither better than the other if there were some holy place, either one may have as much chance in hell based in their, our actions.
 
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I have difficulty in accepting any concept of an afterlife, be it a heaven or some form of re-incarnation, as both of these require the existence of some form of energetic non-physical 'essence'; call it soul, spirit or whatever, which can exist once the material body ceases to function. For me at least, all that we are is contained in that marvelous organ ... the human brain. It's difficult to judge exactly when 'we' come into existence, presumably slowly during foetal development as brain complexity increases beyond a certain critical level. We become what we are by a combined process of learning, environmental influences, self determination and genetic influences from our forebears and continue to change throughout our lives. When that organ and its support systems finally shut down and the electro-chemical processes that form the 'mind' cease to function, then all that we are ceases to be.
 
AprilT said:
This type of scenario was one of the reasons, Camus' The Stranger, went on my list of favorite books, just for the last chapters really put it up there. I wasn't a fan of the main character, but that ending was a breath of fresh air as it relates to this overall theme.

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DameW, I did like a lot of what you said about the essence of Christ, that was what I felt through most of my life and followed a lot of those beliefs in how I related to my fellow beings, it has only shifted some in latter years to some degree. I did the whole religious thing back and forth, I would pick up the bible read it through and through, but, I couldn't ever get into it, it just read like a book of fiction, but, I did like some of the elements. I did the whole bible study as a youngster and again in my late thirties even vocally accepted Christ as my savior, but, after many discussions at these bible studies and getting all the perspectives on a lot of the views from the people in these groups, my stomach began to churn and there was no way I could drink that kool aide much longer. There were just too many questions that had no logical answers and I delved and delved and tried to quiet my mind to convince myself to just let faith thing take over. I couldn't do it. Sometimes, it does feel nice to think of magical things when all else fails, but, I know for me, I'm just letting fantasy take over, not real belief in anything, just soothing my soul for a minute, when I think mom, my sisters are looking in on me.

Most of my family are quite religious, some to the point, I can't be in the same room with them for too long or my eye roll reflexes would cause me to have a seizure, but then there was my baby sister, she was a Jehovah's Witness, and I never tired of her company, she knew to leave it at the door she even spent family holidays my other siblings and me; of course we rarely mentioned the holiday itself, and we didn't always gather on the exact calendar date or we made no mention of the holiday name as to allow her and her kids to feel more comfortable in joining in with us all and she didn't make a big deal out of it, this took some negotiating in the very beginning, but we all worked it out.

I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others. Show me in your actions, as long as you have a good heart, your intentions toward me are what matter. I've watched some of the most horrific things transpire from the most religious and nonreligious, neither better than the other if there were some holy place, either one may have as much chance in hell based in their, our actions.
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Very well expressed AprilT. My experience are very similar to yours in the past Right now I feel more spiritual and that seems to be when I am the most happy. But you cannot push anything on anyone nor would I try. The only thing for certain that I have found is that we will all die. And I do not dread that for a second.
 
AprilT said:
I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others. Show me in your actions, as long as you have a good heart, your intentions toward me are what matter. I've watched some of the most horrific things transpire from the most religious and nonreligious, neither better than the other if there were some holy place, either one may have as much chance in hell based in their, our actions.
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Amen!
 
AprilT said:
I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others.
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No-one is likely to argue with this sentiment but some of us suffer from a lack of self awareness. I hope I'm not one of them but only others can judge that. Jesus wasn't big on arrogance and said so more than once. He also warned against seeing others faults while being oblivious to our own failings but it's sometimes hard to remove the log from the eye.

It is these lessons that often come to mind because I have spent time reading them during my times of belief and unbelief.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Of course I have doubt, even complete disbelief, about some things I read in the Bible. That is, if I read it literally word for word or as a scientific text.
Am I concerned about that? Not in the slightest.

That there exists something beyond ourselves and that this something is sentient and responsive is something that I do believe and I also believe that I have some connection with it. That something is that which we call God and is largely unknowable mystery. I'm not happy to dismiss this as a fairy story because of some personal experiences that convince me that it is a reality even if the reality is wrapped in myth and other stories.

As I read the bible I find that Jesus spent a lot of time teaching about the nature of God using stories that ordinary people can understand, but which also challenge us to reach out and encounter God for ourselves. He also devoted time to fleshing out the Old Testament teaching about true justice and how people should interact with each other. He used stories here too, rather than impose another set of onerous rules to follow. If these lessons are followed then Christianity becomes a way of life that is spiritual, reflective and practical rather than an organised religion. Trouble is, humans always want to codify everything and Christianity has morphed into a religion not unlike all the rest in many ways. Christianity is meant to be practised in community. Lone ranger Christians are missing the point.

Am I worried about the afterlife? Again, not at all. First, I'm not sure that there is an afterlife. Scientifically it is highly unlikely. However if there is something within us that is immortal then that something (soul, spirit, personality?) must the of same essence of the entity that we call God. If the essence of God is indeed love and forgiveness, then what do I have to fear? What do any of us have to fear? Either there is nothing or there is something that will not be bad. If there is judgement, perhaps some receive nothing and are deleted but others go on to something else but now I'm just burbling because none of us actually know.

Jesus certainly believed in heaven and made references to it several times but it was not his core message. His core message was love, forgiveness, compassion and service. He was countercultural in his time and is still the same today. The only source of his life and teachings is the New Testament books which is why I do take the bible seriously. Seriously does not mean that I pay a lot of attention to stories about magical virgin birth complete with wandering stars and choirs of angels or about graves opening up and releasing the dead at the moment of Jesus' death. I consider these stories to be literary metaphors. Seriously means I try to adopt the teachings that I can understand and relate to as my life principle and learn to be appreciative of life in all its fullness, including the good and the bad parts of it. If Heaven materialises, it's a bonus.
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I think this sums up perfectly how I feel too, and I certainly wouldn't have put it so well.
 
I rejected all religion at the age of 14 having been brought up a Catholic. So I'm not doubting the bible. I positively kicked it into touch 45 years ago!!
 

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