Censorship: As support for & against it continues to grow what's your opinion?

[Tazx's_better_half]

Words have power- in ancient times some even thought magical powers - and depending on when and who is speaking, words can be more powerful than a weapon or as peaceful as prayer.

Censorship is as old as language.

Throughout history, many gifted speakers have used their talent of public speaking for good, and some not so good.

Think of the well-known philosophers and gifted speakers of the past- Jesus- a prophetic philosopher, Socrates, Marx, Hitler and present day...hard to think of an actual present day influential philosopher...

Jordan Peterson comes to my mind first, though some would refer to him as a pseudo-philosopher, I think he's brilliant.

Controversial podcast & alternative news hosts Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, and recently joining the gang of silenced speakers -Tucker Carlson, to name just a few.

All have been heavily censored and completely silenced- or in modern times "canceled" and surprisingly...many people believe that in certain situations censorship of expression and ideas makes sense and is necessary - their reasoning, if expression puts people in danger or threatens society (or them...just saying Karen's are real) or a nation that it is acceptable.

Let me use an example that most would likely agree that their reasoning has some merit- Adolf Hitler - he used his gift of public speaking and a well organized and influential propaganda campaign to discredit his opposition and critics and rally support for his plan to rid Europe of Jews, Gypsies, and other people in minority groups ushering in a dark dictatorship.

His regime cost millions of people their lives (and please, let's not turn this discussion into a debate on the holocaust - or I will censor you ) It's just that his infamous campaign is a historical reference and even today there is a ban that was issued by the post-war government against expression that promoted the Nazi Party. In fact, you cannot even discuss conflicting information about the holocaust for fear of imprisonment.

Other people disagree and believe that censorship is dangerous and poses a bigger problem than any expression or beliefs itself can cause. Their reasoning, censorship restricts the flow of ideas and deprives people of information needed to maintain an open and just society.

Well-known and strong opponent of censorship Benjamin Franklin- we all know this icon of American Patriotism and author who famously summed up censorship in just a few words, wrote: "Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Today- as the world continually spirals into a whirlwind of chaos, "misinformation and disinformation" and the rise of heavy censorship is rearing it's ugly head in the worlds democratic countries- some would say in a very Orwellian manner - I thought this would make for an interesting topic.

Hopefully one in which we can discuss as adults and not have it degrade into useless arguments trying to convince others that their opinion is the right opinion. Laws and constitutions aside..see how I did that- let's have a worthy and intellectual conversation about censorship.

Have I set the tone?

To begin this debate- let's clarify the exact definition of censorship according to the Oxford Dictionary:

"Any regime or context in which the content of what is publically expressed, exhibited, published, broadcast, or otherwise distributed is regulated or in which the circulation of information is controlled."

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095558166#:~:text=1.,circulation of information is controlled.

Now, let's begin...

ohhh, this is going to be a fun one!

 

[Tazx]

"Laws and constitutions aside"....Awesome!

As most democratic countries have been violating the law since this whole censorship garbage started. Free speech is a right, dam who I offend!

As per Law;

1. Freedom of conscience is an unalienable right because people can only think for themselves;

2. Free speech makes representatives accountable to We the People;

3. Free speech is necessary for the discovery of truth and the rejection of falsehood;

4. Free speech allows the public discussion necessary for democratic self government.

You also brought up a good question...why are there no modern day philosophers?

(Oh, I'm sure, the woke, dei, anti free speech idiots had something to do with this! If you would ever start being influential, you'd be cancelled!)

 

[Tazx]

It looks like people en masse are disregarding this section. Not sure if its they have no interest in discussing this topic, or can't hold back derision and judgement.

Maybe we will talk about what color are walls are, maybe people will engage!

 

[Nathan]

It looks like people en masse are disregarding this section. Not sure if its they have no interest in discussing this topic, or can't hold back derision and judgement.

I think people might be confused by the statement:

Controversial podcast & alternative news hosts Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, and recently joining the gang of silenced speakers -Tucker Carlson, to name just a few.

To me this sounds like a false narrative, asserting that the perpetrator is the "victim".

 

[HermitHogan]

 

[January]

It looks like people en masse are disregarding this section. Not sure if its they have no interest in discussing this topic, or can't hold back derision and judgement.

or possibly they don't see it - depends who they have on ignore.

I dont think you see threads started by posters you have on ignore.

or they are not interested - that happens on all forums, you start a thread that isnt the interest of your audience or you start with a tone people see as being provocative and they don't want to engage in that sort of discussion.

 

[Paco Dennis]

I do see the increase in concern for what children see/read. There has to be some censorship in schools grades 1-12, you would think. After that , probably yes, according to the institution. Each different kind of institution will have to decide what is to be censored. We know the parents would not want some things shown to their children. So who decides?

As far as the press goes...total freedom of speech no matter what is guaranteed, but there could be consequences in certain circumstances where it has been declared a censorship zone by the public. Then that law would be violated not the free speech law. The censorship law.

 

[Muskrat]

I do not believe in censorship. But I wish people took are more methodical look at what is presented to them as “fact”. We all know that opinions, statistics, studies can all be slanted. We have had some great examples on this forum of that. It fatigues me….

 

[dilettante]

I not sure how far this is going to get.

We already have people here who "want democracy back" - without any pesky "elections."

Others live in places where peaceful protest is met with public demonization and the freezing and seizing of bank accounts to shut them up. Professionals are ordered into re-education in order to retain licenses required for their livelihoods.

So the topics appreciated here seem to be posting cat pictures, quilts, and how many teeth might be left in your head.

 

[HermitHogan]

Many people and news sources have been threatened recently for telling the truth! We're in a dangerous situation right now. Time will tell how it plays out, but that's all I can say about that without getting political.

I stated a verifiable fact last week on SF about a popular cable news outlet and got banned for two days. But that's the prerogative of the owner and moderators of this forum. They can "censor" anybody for anything they want. There's no guaranteed freedom of speech on a private forum. We're only guaranteed the right to speech free from punishment by the government, but even that has its limitations.

We're patently free to make statements that are blatantly and absurdly untrue, such as the following from the OP...

"Controversial podcast & alternative news hosts Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, and recently joining the gang of silenced speakers -Tucker Carlson, to name just a few.​

​

All have been heavily censored and completely silenced"​

Joe Rogan still has his podcast. Alex Jones got sued for defamation and now has his show on another platform, so he wasn't "silenced." Tucker Carlson got fired for lying because he cost the cable news show he was previously on a lot of money. It's a private media company and they're going to do what it takes to maximize profits. But Carlson is now on his own "network," so he wasn't "silenced" either.

And regarding Jordan Peterson... some have said that "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person." I wouldn't say that, although I would agree with it. I just wouldn't say it.

 

[Paco Dennis]

All of this kind of censorship is because of commercial selling of products or ideas/politics. The Neilson ratings determine what gets censored. As pointed out, they all move to another /different venue. Alex Jones got severely penalized for his lies. So we have laws that protect us from harmful speech and certain pornography. But, we all get fired from jobs for different reasons, and in some ways that is some kind of censorship.

 

[Tazx]

I think people might be confused by the statement:



To me this sounds like a false narrative, asserting that the perpetrator is the "victim".

What are you talking about? What false narrative? The perpetrator and victim in what?

 

[Tazx]

or possibly they don't see it - depends who they have on ignore.

I dont think you see threads started by posters you have on ignore.

or they are not interested - that happens on all forums, you start a thread that isnt the interest of your audience or you start with a tone people see as being provocative and they don't want to engage in that sort of discussion.

Well being provocative is philosophy. Asking the hard questions, make statements...

 

[Tazx]

I do see the increase in concern for what children see/read. There has to be some censorship in schools grades 1-12, you would think. After that , probably yes, according to the institution. Each different kind of institution will have to decide what is to be censored. We know the parents would not want some things shown to their children. So who decides?

As far as the press goes...total freedom of speech no matter what is guaranteed, but there could be consequences in certain circumstances where it has been declared a censorship zone by the public. Then that law would be violated not the free speech law. The censorship law.

Censorship for children is not censorship per say, its deciding to shield children who are not of legal age from things deemed 18+.
There is no freedom of the press. How much press was censored during covid? If they had opposite opinions and challenged the narrative, they were blocked, censored and so on.

As for children being sheltered...funny the LGBT agenda is pushed on children and thats not censored to children! Disgusting...

The signees of the declaration of independence are rolling in their grave over this.

 

[Tazx]

Many people and news sources have been threatened recently for telling the truth! We're in a dangerous situation right now. Time will tell how it plays out, but that's all I can say about that without getting political.

I stated a verifiable fact last week on SF about a popular cable news outlet and got banned for two days. But that's the prerogative of the owner and moderators of this forum. They can "censor" anybody for anything they want. There's no guaranteed freedom of speech on a private forum. We're only guaranteed the right to speech free from punishment by the government, but even that has its limitations.

We're patently free to make statements that are blatantly and absurdly untrue, such as the following from the OP...

"Controversial podcast & alternative news hosts Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, and recently joining the gang of silenced speakers -Tucker Carlson, to name just a few.​

​

All have been heavily censored and completely silenced"​

Joe Rogan still has his podcast. Alex Jones got sued for defamation and now has his show on another platform, so he wasn't "silenced." Tucker Carlson got fired for lying because he cost the cable news show he was previously on a lot of money. It's a private media company and they're going to do what it takes to maximize profits. But Carlson is now on his own "network," so he wasn't "silenced" either.

And regarding Jordan Peterson... some have said that "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person." I wouldn't say that, although I would agree with it. I just wouldn't say it.

Joe Rogan has never been proven to have lied about anything...Alex Jones is an idiot...Tucker Carlson got fired because he refused to be censored.

 

[Tazx's_better_half]

Censorship for children is not censorship per say, its deciding to shield children who are not of legal age from things deemed 18+.
There is no freedom of the press. How much press was censored during covid? If they had opposite opinions and challenged the narrative, they were blocked, censored and so on.

As for children being sheltered...funny the LGBT agenda is pushed on children and thats not censored to children! Disgusting...

The signees of the declaration of independence are rolling in their grave over this.

"The signees of the declaration of independence are rolling in their grave over this"

Indeed they would! Not sure most people here from America even know who they were or what they did.

I don't think the level of intelligence is adequate in this forum to engage in philosophical discussions such as this.

Where for us, conversation and debate are fun and mind expanding (thankful to have each other) most people in the world are too emotionally triggered, irrational, programmed- and simply lack the level of comprehension to participate in such discussion.

Common sense, logic- and what we all need is some humor - is gone, and without it we are left with unreasonable, bias, uneducated, socially inept people discussing what they ate today, bought- or as @dilettante put it -cats, quilts, and how many teeth they have left

 

[January]

yep - rest of us are all socially inept,unreasonable, biased, uneducated and lack your level of intelligence.

That must be why we don't want to engage with you

 

[Tazx]

yep - rest of us are all socially inept,unreasonable, biased, uneducated and lack your level of intelligence.

That must be why we don't want to engage with you

The fact that you engaged supported the conclusions. (Can't let it go) And in most cases, people are biased. Its their own beliefs or nothing. Stats, facts mean nothing to them. The only facts they believe is if its on tv.
Yes it does take an intellect to understand that there multiple sides to every argument. But, I don't get upset when I am wrong. I research to see where I went wrong. Most just accept the status quo, no matter what, can't accept they are wrong, and double down.

 

[Tazx's_better_half]

Many people and news sources have been threatened recently for telling the truth! We're in a dangerous situation right now. Time will tell how it plays out, but that's all I can say about that without getting political.

I stated a verifiable fact last week on SF about a popular cable news outlet and got banned for two days. But that's the prerogative of the owner and moderators of this forum. They can "censor" anybody for anything they want. There's no guaranteed freedom of speech on a private forum. We're only guaranteed the right to speech free from punishment by the government, but even that has its limitations.

We're patently free to make statements that are blatantly and absurdly untrue, such as the following from the OP...

"Controversial podcast & alternative news hosts Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, and recently joining the gang of silenced speakers -Tucker Carlson, to name just a few.​

​

All have been heavily censored and completely silenced"​

Joe Rogan still has his podcast. Alex Jones got sued for defamation and now has his show on another platform, so he wasn't "silenced." Tucker Carlson got fired for lying because he cost the cable news show he was previously on a lot of money. It's a private media company and they're going to do what it takes to maximize profits. But Carlson is now on his own "network," so he wasn't "silenced" either.

And regarding Jordan Peterson... some have said that "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person." I wouldn't say that, although I would agree with it. I just wouldn't say it.

I agree with you that we're in a dangerous situation right now.

I never said that people had to agree with me as the OP - the examples I gave were from both angles and you, or anyone else doesn't have to agree with who I referenced as an examples.

You may not like such people but all that I listed are very controversial and have had attempts at being completely silenced and censored, as well as massive smear campaigns against them.

Have you or anyone here ever listened to an entire show or interviews with people like Tucker- he fully admitted his false information and bad judgment on information he either investigated or shared, or how he composed himself in situations- that is a real man- one that has enough balls to admit publically when wrong and to continue to keep going.

Alex Jones, may be on the crazy side - but isn't all of society? We have the insane running the asylum!

I am open for any debate but most people here are not.

This thread is pointless.

SF are clearly the wrong place to discuss such philosophical topics.

 

[Tazx's_better_half]

Okay, so this post clearly missed the target- and thanks to Tazx's inquiry for the lack of interest it's gone sideways.

Now, all bickering aside- can we get back to the topic at hand and engage in some critical thinking rather than critical sarcastic remarks about the OP.

I told you this could be fun, but it doesn't have to get derailed into insults and arguments.

 

[gruntlabor]

I don't think the level of intelligence is adequate in this forum to engage in philosophical discussions such as this.

Where for us, conversation and debate are fun and mind expanding (thankful to have each other) most people in the world are too emotionally triggered, irrational, programmed- and simply lack the level of comprehension to participate in such discussion.

Common sense, logic- and what we all need is some humor - is gone, and without it we are left with unreasonable, bias, uneducated, socially inept people discussing what they ate today, bought- or as @dilettante put it -cats, quilts, and how many teeth they have left

You are too kind.

 

[January]

told you this could be fun, but it doesn't have to get derailed into insults and arguments.

You mean like saying other posters are unreasonable, bias, uneducated, socially inept people??

Be the change you ask for in others.

 

[Pepper]

Are there two of you, or only one pretending to be two separate individuals? Your attitude is elitist, and ruins the points you are trying to make. It's hard to engage with you "both."

 

[hearlady]

Hopefully one in which we can discuss as adults and not have it degrade into useless arguments trying to convince others that their opinion is the right opinion. Laws and constitutions aside..see how I did that- let's have a worthy and intellectual conversation about censorship.

Not to be too cynical but good luck with that.
I am being censored today (not that I need to be), by my son who feels his safety and feelings are more important than liberty. I may have to quote Ben Franklin if things get dicey. Otherwise, I'm willing to put liberty aside for a day for peace and harmony.
I do like your thread.

 

[rgp]

Are there two of you, or only one pretending to be two separate individuals? Your attitude is elitist, and ruins the points you are trying to make. It's hard to engage with you "both."

Who are you replying too ??