Daniel Penny, who killed Michael Jackson impersonator on NY subway, to be charged with manslaughter

hearlady said:
It is hard. Isn't there a wrongful death charge that's a bit lighter?
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The manslaughter charge means the death wasn't premeditated. At the arraignment, the attorneys and the judge will decide if it's a fitting charge. Since the death also wasn't intended, he'll probably be charged with something else, like involuntary manslaughter.
 

Marine veteran who fatally choked NYC subway rider Jordan Neely is freed pending trial​

NEW YORK (AP) — A U.S. Marine veteran who placed an agitated New York City subway passenger in a chokehold, killing him and sparking outrage as video of the encounter went viral, surrendered Friday on a manslaughter charge brought nearly two weeks later.

Daniel Penny, 24, was freed pending trial hours after turning himself in at a police station and appearing in court to answer criminal charges in the May 1 death of Jordan Neely, a former subway performer with a history of mental illness. Penny did not enter a plea.

Neely’s death prompted protests, while others embraced Penny as a vigilante hero. His lawyers have said he was acting in self-defense. Lawyers for Neely’s family said Neely wasn’t harming anyone and didn’t deserve to die. An autopsy ruled Neely’s death a homicide due to compression of the neck.

A judge authorized Penny’s release on $100,000 bond and ordered him to surrender his passport and not to leave New York without approval. Prosecutors said they are seeking a grand jury indictment. Penny is due back in court on July 17.

Penny didn’t speak to reporters. At a brief arraignment, Penny faced straight ahead, his hands cuffed. He spoke softly, offering one-word answers to Judge Kevin McGrath as his lawyer, Steve Raiser, placed an arm around his shoulder. If convicted, he could face up to 15 years in prison.

Assistant District Attorney Joshua Steinglass, said Neely had been making threats and “scaring passengers” when Penny approached him from behind and placed him in a chokehold. Penny “continued to hold Mr. Neely in the chokehold for several minutes,” even after he stopped moving, Steinglass said.

A freelance journalist who recorded Neely struggling to free himself, then lapsing into unconsciousness, said he had been shouting at passengers and begging for money aboard the train but had not gotten physical with anyone. Penny pinned Neely to the floor of the subway car with the help of two other passengers and held him in a chokehold.

Neely’s death has raised an uproar over many issues, including how the city treats people with mental illness, as well as crime, race and vigilantism. Police questioned Penny, who is white, in the aftermath but released him without charges. Neely was Black.

https://apnews.com/article/jordan-neely-subway-chokehold-3f36c61a13532eead65cf4f8155f13b8

There is more at the link.
 
GEE! I thought all the crazy people lived in California? Guess I was wrong. There are a lot living in New York too!
 

There are mentally ill people on the street in every city of any size all over the country. Many are incarcerated when maybe they should be in mental hospitals instead, but at least they aren't causing trouble for everyday folks when they are in jail for their crimes instead of being loose on the street.

These people are too often free to create violence wherever they are and their mental state is a common link between violent crimes of all kinds.

In what reality is a mentally ill man allowed to commit a felony on a 67 yr old woman and walk free to ride the subway? What's wrong with those in charge?
 
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This is reminiscent of the Bernard Goetz case. In 1984 he shot four young Black men on a New York City Subway train in Manhattan after a somewhat similar provocation. All of the men shot survived, but one was paralyzed and permanently brain damaged.

At the time that got at least as much press coverage and outrage as this one. In the end Goetz was acquitted of charges related to the shooting, except for a weapons charge. He was not legally permitted to have the gun. However in civil actions brought by the most severely wounded man Goetz lost a lot of money. William Kunstler represented the plaintiff, very high profile.

The facts are of course different, but a similar outcome wouldn't surprise me.

1984 New York City Subway shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting
 
I'm hearing reports the chokehold was only used for about 3 minutes. The victim was restrained for 15 minutes. Also reports and pictures of other passengers trying to calm the suspect down not remove the suspect.

Anyone who has worked with the public knows how unpredictable or volatile people can become in an instant. And street people, drug addicts are some of the worst. Both normal and mental patients seem to be able to tell when something's off. Had a couple get mad I tried avoiding them even though we had no contact, interactions etc. They are more 'aware' than they want you to believe. But again they're volatile.

The issue that stood out for me was over 15 minutes to get police on the scene?
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Granted Neely was ranting and raving, he did throw his jacket on the floor. But in echoes of George Floyd, Penny continued the choke hold well past Neely being unconscious, thus not moving, and despite passengers' warnings Neely wasn't breathing. If you want to play hero in restraining an unarmed crazy guy, that doesn't give you the right to kill him.
Penny may be eventually convicted of manslaughter, but I doubt a long prison sentence, if any.
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It might be beneficial to wait for all the facts and videos to be analysed before declaring someone was killed by someone playing hero.
Penny is a hero to all those being threatened since crazy people are... well crazy, and do harm themselves and worst - innocent people.
Penny is going to graduate from college next week with much to contribute to society so hopefully he will have long and productive future.
 
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Myrtle said:
There are mentally ill people on the street in every city of any size all over the country. Many are incarcerated when maybe they should be in mental hospitals instead, but at least they aren't causing trouble for everyday folks when they are in jail for their crimes instead of being loose on the street.

These people are too often free to create violence wherever they are and their mental state is a common link between violent crimes of all kinds.

In what reality is a mentally ill man allowed to commit a felony on a 67 yr old woman and walk free to ride the subway? What's wrong with those in charge?
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I agree with you @Myrtle.

The jail is no place to house the mentally ill, but they have been forced on them. These people need an institution to be in where they can receive proper medical care 24-hours a day. That cannot be provided in the jail system. With no place to put them in other than general population, it makes for a dangerous situation for other inmates as well as the jailers.

In the 80s, institutions were being closed down all over more & more. Some entity made the decision that mental hospitals were outdated and/or insufficient & it was also inhuman to keep people locked up who were mentally ill. It's very sad these individuals were released with too many who had no where to go & no one to make sure they continued on their meds. The institutions should have been updated and/or purpose-built to house these people.

We are now seeing the results of those decisions.
 
Happy Heart said:
It might be beneficial to wait for all the facts and videos to be analysed before declaring someone was killed by someone playing hero.
Penny is a hero to all those being threatened since crazy people are... well crazy, and do harm themselves and worst - innocent people.
Penny is going to graduate from college next week with much to contribute to society so hopefully he will have long and productive future.
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I doubt Penny is going to graduate from college next week since he dropped out, possibly even before he started, according to various news sources. He may have only gotten as far as enrolling.

[EDIT: other sources claim he's pursuing a Bachelor's Degree in architecture. ]
 
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Let’s get real. The deceased wasn’t some innocent Michael Jackson impersonator working in Vegas. He was a homeless dude, arguably mentally ill, making wild threats on the subway. New York is consistently putting the wrong people behind bars.
 
Myrtle said:
So many people seem unable to put themselves in the place of the threatened passengers and can only feel sympathy for the dead criminal.
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You know why I feel more sympathy for the dead criminal? Because he's dead. The passengers were just frightened.

Yes, I do have sympathy for the passengers experience and I think there should be more police protection on the subways.

I agree that those people who are severely mentally ill with a tendency toward violence should be in lock down psychiatric hospitals until they get well.

Everyone should have a right to stay alive if they are not physically threatening anyone else at that moment. Even if they're homeless, or mentally ill, or have nothing impressive to contribute to society. Even if they throw their jackets on the floor. This young mentally ill man could possibly have had a productive life with the right care and medication, but he was not given that chance.

We seem to have decided that, "I feared for my life," gives ordinary people the right to kill others, whether it's a loud person on the subway or a teenager at your front door.

It turns out the most dangerous person on that subway was not the mentally ill man, but the young veteran.
 
Why so much venom for an American who stood up to protect others? Penny didn't murder anyone and I would be proud to have him as my neighbor. I wish someone like him had been there to defend my cousin when she died because of three thugs who abducted and robbed her instead of having to fight to her death.
 
Della, thank you for explaining your position.

Della said:
We seem to have decided that, "I feared for my life," gives ordinary people the right to kill others, whether it's a loud person on the subway or a teenager at your front door.
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Actually, we do have a right to self defense if others threaten us. We also have a right to protect others who are being threatened. Intent also figures into this situation on both sides. The mentally ill man was apparently shouting at passengers and making demands. This is a threatening intent.

The Marine also had intent. His intent was to protect his fellow passengers from a threatening individual, it was not to kill the threatening person but to prevent him from threatening, attacking, scaring others.

In most jurisdictions the Marine would not have been arrested, much less charged and indeed the police did not arrest him on the scene.

We will see what happens with his case. The only thing that makes the outcome in doubt IMO is the political atmosphere where this case is being handled. A political conviction is a definite possibility.
 
This is a tough one. To fairly judge would requiring understanding at least couple of important things. First did the marine have a reasonable believe that he or the others were threatened. Second should the Marine have reasonably expected that his actions would lead to the death.

I don't believe that any of us can learn enough from the media to be sure of either.

I also think we need to judge the marine with some leniency, he was acting in the excitement of the moment, not much time to think things out. If there really was a threat he had to act quickly.
 
I'm biting my tongue as I say this; I apologize to anyone this may offend.

Mr. Neely's family is all on local news with their attorney. My question: when Mr. Neely was shouting he was hungry, angry, homeless and wanted to be dead where were they? Why was he homeless when he had such a loving family?

I almost hate myself for asking.
 
Pepper said:
I'm biting my tongue as I say this; I apologize to anyone this may offend.

Mr. Neely's family is all on local news with their attorney. My question: when Mr. Neely was shouting he was hungry, angry, homeless and wanted to be dead where were they? Why was he homeless when he had such a loving family?

I almost hate myself for asking.
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Since they were not there for mcneely before or after, why do they need an attorney unless they smell a profit.
 
Happy Heart said:
Since they were not there for mcneely before or after, why do they need an attorney unless they smell a profit.
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I think he stayed with some of them at various times after his mother was murdered by her boyfriend when he was 14. The kid grew up in a pretty crappy environment. If his mother had only gotten an abortion or used birth control effectively, this whole mess could have been avoided.
 
mrstime said:
It looked like murder to me!
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Yes, it was definitely murder.
Here is an example at 1:18 <-- of incapacitating someone with a choke hold. Notice the man was released immediately when he stopped resisting.
Killing a person usually takes at least 4 to 5 additional minutes after a person has passed out. It is clear to me that Penny was well aware of what he was doing and that he was killing Mr. Neely.

When I was 18, a muscle bound football player attacked me in the coach's office in front of a couple of friends. I managed to get him in a choke hold and held on for dear life as he drove me upside down and head first down a stairwell. When he finally relaxed, the threat was gone and I released him immediately. He didn't even pass out. I think this would be the normal thing to do, certainly in a case when someone's passed out already, unless the intent is to murder that person.

@Happy Heart - Here's a quote from the article: "Police found Neely unconscious, and he was pronounced dead at the hospital. Investigators determined he died from having his neck compressed, and his death was ruled a homicide by a city medical examiner." Nowhere does it state that he was still alive and still breathing. Even if he had been though, he died from the choke hold.
 
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Happy Heart said:
Why so much venom for an American who stood up to protect others? Penny didn't murder anyone and I would be proud to have him as my neighbor. I wish someone like him had been there to defend my cousin when she died because of three thugs who abducted and robbed her instead of having to fight to her death.
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Protect them from what exactly? Being yelled at? Neely was an American, too, and he wasn't abducting, robbing, or fighting anyone.

How much courage does it take a tall trained Marine to jump a small, unarmed, sick man from behind, particularly when others jump in to help? Neely had not touched a single person. Witnesses say he was shouting that he was homeless and asking for money.

Someone could have called the police and said there was a disturbance. Someone could have given him $20 and there's a good possibility he would have gone away. Wouldn't that have been better than killing him?
 

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