Does the Book of Job explain the current news?

If I had taken that course at the theological college, I would have gone ballistic when presented with that theory. It sounds an awful lot like human rationalization of someone else's cruelty, when one is helpless to do anything about it anyway. Call it the "I'm only punishing you for your own good" theory.

So, our loving Father is beating us with a leather strap because it feels so good when he stops? Or because it will toughen us up and help us to deal with all the other suffering in store for us?

How would we feel about a human boss, leader, head of state, religious figure, whatever, who behaved like that?
I would have felt the same Sunny. Suffering does not make all people better. Sometimes it breaks them and makes them much worse. If we want the world to be a better place, we need to heal and educate and offer opportunity not judgement and pain. How could our creator do less?

And what would have been so bad about a painless childbirth anyway. This just shows the bible was written by men.
 

Short answer NO.

Long but it makes a point by comparing.

Earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old, plus or minus about 50 million years. Scientists have scoured the Earth searching for the oldest rocks to radiometrically date. In northwestern Canada, they discovered rocks about 4.03 billion years old. Then, in Australia, they discovered minerals about 4.3 billion years old. Researchers know that rocks are continuously recycling, due to the rock cycle, so they continued to search for data elsewhere. Since it is thought the bodies in the solar system may have formed at similar times, scientists analyzed moon rocks collected during the moon landing and even meteorites that have crash-landed on Earth. Both of these materials dated to between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years.

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-age-earth/?q=&page=1&per_page=25

The Prehistoric Period—or when there was human life before records documented human activity—roughly dates from 2.5 million years ago to 1,200 B.C. It is generally categorized in three archaeological periods: the Stone Age, Bronze Age and Iron Age.Sep 27, 2019

The Prehistoric Ages in Order: How Humans Lived Before Written ...
www.history.com › news › prehistoric-ages-timeline

It comes down to what people want to believe. Science or the Bible

Bible version of there is a creator that made the heaven & earth 6000 years ago.

Or

Science dating the earth & the prehistoric period.

I think the bible is an attempt by man to figure out the unknown.

Science would have the creator that some think is affecting mankind now to be between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years old.

Belief works for those that can accept that a diety between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years old lives & influnces life now.

I'm not knocking religious belief since there are over 4000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

I just have more belief in what science shows me.
 

Short answer NO.

Long but it makes a point by comparing.

Earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old, plus or minus about 50 million years. Scientists have scoured the Earth searching for the oldest rocks to radiometrically date. In northwestern Canada, they discovered rocks about 4.03 billion years old. Then, in Australia, they discovered minerals about 4.3 billion years old. Researchers know that rocks are continuously recycling, due to the rock cycle, so they continued to search for data elsewhere. Since it is thought the bodies in the solar system may have formed at similar times, scientists analyzed moon rocks collected during the moon landing and even meteorites that have crash-landed on Earth. Both of these materials dated to between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years.

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-age-earth/?q=&page=1&per_page=25

The Prehistoric Period—or when there was human life before records documented human activity—roughly dates from 2.5 million years ago to 1,200 B.C. It is generally categorized in three archaeological periods: the Stone Age, Bronze Age and Iron Age.Sep 27, 2019

The Prehistoric Ages in Order: How Humans Lived Before Written ...
www.history.com › news › prehistoric-ages-timeline

It comes down to what people want to believe. Science or the Bible

Bible version of there is a creator that made the heaven & earth 6000 years ago.

Or

Science dating the earth & the prehistoric period.

I think the bible is an attempt by man to figure out the unknown.

Science would have the creator that some think is affecting mankind now to be between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years old.

Belief works for those that can accept that a diety between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years old lives & influnces life now.

I'm not knocking religious belief since there are over 4000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

I just have more belief in what science shows me.
I believe in both
 
In defense of my earlier post, I must clarify. The position I quoted was not biblical. It was more philosophical and the issue of pain is very problematic. Speaking scientifically, think of the consequences of having no pain receptors in the brain. Mine react to a simple nick of my finger with a sharp knife, when I touch a hot surface or am bitten by a tiny ant. Why does this happen and why have we evolved to react quickly to pain signals? Pain has an evolutionary purpose or it would not be part of our physiology. Similarly, our reaction to that pain is something that we need for survival as a species. In a similar vein, humans and some other species as well, have developed the capacity to recognise pain and suffering in other individuals and we react by expressing sympathy, by comforting and by rendering aid. Pain and empathy are both sides of the one coin. Without the first we would never have developed the second. Most humans are hard wired to want to alleviate the pain of a suffering animal, sometimes with a bullet, more generally with kindness and gentle treatment.

Nevertheless, we do not welcome pain. We would like less of it and that drives us to apply our ever growing knowledge to understand what causes it and to deal with the causes. This is what underpins scientific medicine in the quest for treatments and cures for disease. All research is a function of human curiosity but it is also a quest to improve the lot of people who suffer. Should we look to God to do this work for us, to take away all pain? If an all powerful being were to do this what would we be like as a species?

This question has been examined many times before now. In Aldous Huxley's "The Brave New World", a modern society has decided to eliminate not only all physical pain but also all emotional pain as well. Huxley imagines a society where the pain of childbirth is gone because fertilisation and gestation occur ex utero and in that time the developing human is vaccinated against all known diseases so that there is no more sickness to be suffered, not even the common cold. A drug that is free of negative side effects is developed to keep people calm and everyone is conditioned to take it at the slightest feeling of stress. In this Brave New World which is designed to be a utopia, the results are not what we would hope for. Along with the absence of pain and suffering there is also the absence of qualities that make us human - mother love, the bonding of husband and wife, resilience, empathy to name a few. It is a long time since I read the book.

My point was that in the Book of Job, the writer, like Huxley, was exploring the issue of pain but from the view of pre-christian civilisation. His question is why does God (Yahweh or Jehovah) inflict suffering on a righteous man, who obeys all of the religious laws and is totally blameless? The question is debated endlessly by the wise men and gets nowhere. In the end, Job comes to the understanding that the mind of God is not understandable by mankind and at that point he is restored to health and everything that was taken away from him is restored. Make of that what you will but my understanding is that pain has evolutionary value, and like it or not, we have need of it. We have the capacity to overcome it without entirely eliminating it.
 
In the end, Job comes to the understanding that the mind of God is not understandable by mankind and at that point he is restored to health and everything that was taken away from him is restored.
Warrigal, I was intrigued by that sentence, as it was not the way I remembered the Book of Job. So I got out by Bible (yes, I have one) and looked it up. It says, in an epilogue, that at the end, all his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him came and ate with him in his house, and offered consolation over all his losses. And the Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He apparently remarried (though it doesn't mention his wife), and eventually had 10 children, including some very beautiful daughters. (Doesn't say anything about the sons, though.) So he does get a second family, but the first family is never restored.

The rest of your note is interesting, and I pretty much agree with it. Pain serves a useful function, at least at times. It certainly does when we are about to touch something that could burn us. Cancer is, however, another story. I can't for the life of me figure out anything "useful" about having cancer or any other horrible disease.

Aside from the "burn warning" alarm function, I can't think of too many benefits to having pain. We all want to be rid of it. And trying to find some kind of blessing or benefit in it is just silly, IMO. Not everything on earth is beneficial to mankind. Some things are just bad, period.
 
Warrigal, I was intrigued by that sentence, as it was not the way I remembered the Book of Job. So I got out by Bible (yes, I have one) and looked it up. It says, in an epilogue, that at the end, all his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him came and ate with him in his house, and offered consolation over all his losses. And the Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He apparently remarried (though it doesn't mention his wife), and eventually had 10 children, including some very beautiful daughters. (Doesn't say anything about the sons, though.) So he does get a second family, but the first family is never restored.

The rest of your note is interesting, and I pretty much agree with it. Pain serves a useful function, at least at times. It certainly does when we are about to touch something that could burn us. Cancer is, however, another story. I can't for the life of me figure out anything "useful" about having cancer or any other horrible disease.

Aside from the "burn warning" alarm function, I can't think of too many benefits to having pain. We all want to be rid of it. And trying to find some kind of blessing or benefit in it is just silly, IMO. Not everything on earth is beneficial to mankind. Some things are just bad, period.
Does everything on earth have to benefit mankind? I think not.
 
No, but at least most of us are hoping that things that are designed to harm mankind are kept to a minimum.
 
So, I guess my question is: Should we consider this illness to be part of God's will? If God set us up to be destroyed for reasons of His own, is it appropriate to take vaccines? Of course, we can always say, "The vaccines were also part of God's plan." Does religion even have any answers for us?
I believe the answer is in the 2nd chapter of Job
 
Earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old, plus or minus about 50 million years. Scientists have scoured the Earth searching for the oldest rocks to radiometrically date.
While the science of carbon dating was a wonderful discovery back in the '40s, it's become arguable.

And, science is finding wonderful new discoveries
Thank God for the scientists
Our earth is round...etc...etc
it is thought the bodies in the solar system may have formed at similar times
How 'bout that
Creation maybe?

I believe in both
I'm there
But
If I had to choose
It'd be God

I'm a born sceptic
But, the book of Daniel changed all that for me

That's all I've got to say
 
Short answer NO.

Long but it makes a point by comparing.

Earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old, plus or minus about 50 million years. Scientists have scoured the Earth searching for the oldest rocks to radiometrically date. In northwestern Canada, they discovered rocks about 4.03 billion years old. Then, in Australia, they discovered minerals about 4.3 billion years old. Researchers know that rocks are continuously recycling, due to the rock cycle, so they continued to search for data elsewhere. Since it is thought the bodies in the solar system may have formed at similar times, scientists analyzed moon rocks collected during the moon landing and even meteorites that have crash-landed on Earth. Both of these materials dated to between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years.

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-age-earth/?q=&page=1&per_page=25

The Prehistoric Period—or when there was human life before records documented human activity—roughly dates from 2.5 million years ago to 1,200 B.C. It is generally categorized in three archaeological periods: the Stone Age, Bronze Age and Iron Age.Sep 27, 2019

The Prehistoric Ages in Order: How Humans Lived Before Written ...
www.history.com › news › prehistoric-ages-timeline

It comes down to what people want to believe. Science or the Bible

Bible version of there is a creator that made the heaven & earth 6000 years ago.

Or

Science dating the earth & the prehistoric period.

I think the bible is an attempt by man to figure out the unknown.

Science would have the creator that some think is affecting mankind now to be between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years old.

Belief works for those that can accept that a diety between 4.4 and 4.5 billion years old lives & influnces life now.

I'm not knocking religious belief since there are over 4000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

I just have more belief in what science shows me.

The Bible doesn't teach a literal 6,000 year Young Earth Creation. That's a human construct not believed by many who believe much of the Bible or the general theme of the Bible. For some reason, it's a 'thing' to equate the most inflexible Evangelicals with Christians as a whole and that's far from the truth. There are many Christians (and Christian Agnostics flavors :) ) who hold to an idea of Old Earth Creation or theistic evolution as well as various other guesses to how it all happened.

Even Billy Graham had this to say:

I don’t think that there’s any conflict at all between science today and the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many times and we’ve tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren’t meant to say. I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact that God did create man. […] whichever way God did it makes no difference as to what man is and man’s relationship to God.[3]​
Frost, David. Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man. Chariot Victor Pub., 1997. p. 72​
 
Warrigal, I was intrigued by that sentence, as it was not the way I remembered the Book of Job. So I got out by Bible (yes, I have one) and looked it up. It says, in an epilogue, that at the end, all his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him came and ate with him in his house, and offered consolation over all his losses. And the Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He apparently remarried (though it doesn't mention his wife), and eventually had 10 children, including some very beautiful daughters. (Doesn't say anything about the sons, though.) So he does get a second family, but the first family is never restored.

The rest of your note is interesting, and I pretty much agree with it. Pain serves a useful function, at least at times. It certainly does when we are about to touch something that could burn us. Cancer is, however, another story. I can't for the life of me figure out anything "useful" about having cancer or any other horrible disease.

Aside from the "burn warning" alarm function, I can't think of too many benefits to having pain. We all want to be rid of it. And trying to find some kind of blessing or benefit in it is just silly, IMO. Not everything on earth is beneficial to mankind. Some things are just bad, period.
Actually, I can think of many benefits of pain as an alarm function other than just a burn warning, but you probably meant all the alarm warnings of pain. But I can not think of what pain you are talking about that does not include an alarm warning. Can you give examples?
 
Actually, I can think of many benefits of pain as an alarm function other than just a burn warning, but you probably meant all the alarm warnings of pain. But I can not think of what pain you are talking about that does not include an alarm warning. Can you give examples?
No. You are correct. Without physical pain we would not know that something is wrong. We can learn to endure or ignore pain to a certain extent and become more stoic but usually it is best to take notice.
 
What about the pain endured by animals (other than human?) What "warning" purpose is served when they are suffering from a disease or injury? Example: A deer gets shot by a hunter whose aim is not very good, and the deer gets away, only to spend the rest of its miserable life suffering intensely. A pet dog or cat gets cancer. Or even: an elderly person gets any one of the myriad ailments that can cause pain and debilitation, with minimal or no medical relief that works, or none available.

In all these cases, they are "taking notice," of course, but for what purpose?

While pain sometimes functions as an alarm system, it's mostly just bad. Even Job does not suggest that God did us a favor by giving us pain. Its answer seems to me (and whoever wrote that book certainly made God long-winded about it!) that there are no answers. By claiming that pain is useful, etc., we mere humans are putting thoughts and intentions into God's head. There are just some things that we don't know.

God wipes out the entire family of a good man? Can we honestly say that serves a good purpose, because it strengthens him? What about those who don't get strengthened but instead are broken, permanently?
 
What about the pain endured by animals (other than human?) What "warning" purpose is served when they are suffering from a disease or injury? Example: A deer gets shot by a hunter whose aim is not very good, and the deer gets away, only to spend the rest of its miserable life suffering intensely. A pet dog or cat gets cancer. Or even: an elderly person gets any one of the myriad ailments that can cause pain and debilitation, with minimal or no medical relief that works, or none available.

In all these cases, they are "taking notice," of course, but for what purpose?

While pain sometimes functions as an alarm system, it's mostly just bad. Even Job does not suggest that God did us a favor by giving us pain. Its answer seems to me (and whoever wrote that book certainly made God long-winded about it!) that there are no answers. By claiming that pain is useful, etc., we mere humans are putting thoughts and intentions into God's head. There are just some things that we don't know.

God wipes out the entire family of a good man? Can we honestly say that serves a good purpose, because it strengthens him? What about those who don't get strengthened but instead are broken, permanently?
Would it have been better if god wiled out the family of a bad man?

I didn’t notice in the Bible where it said god created all the animals. In any event, IMO, pain is very useful and helpful to the human race.
 
Would it have been better if god wiled out the family of a bad man?

I didn’t notice in the Bible where it said god created all the animals. In any event, IMO, pain is very useful and helpful to the human race.
To the authors of the Bible, yes, that would have made more sense, in human terms. At least we could say God was punishing the bad man. A big part of the Book of Job is understanding that Job was a good man, who followed all the rules, and still got whomped.

About your second sentence, are you saying that the Bible didn't say that God created all the animals? Of course it says that, right in the first chapter of Genesis! See Genesis 1:20-27, where it describes all the different types of animals He created, just before Man.
 
Warrigal, I was intrigued by that sentence, as it was not the way I remembered the Book of Job. So I got out by Bible (yes, I have one) and looked it up. It says, in an epilogue, that at the end, all his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him came and ate with him in his house, and offered consolation over all his losses. And the Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He apparently remarried (though it doesn't mention his wife), and eventually had 10 children, including some very beautiful daughters. (Doesn't say anything about the sons, though.) So he does get a second family, but the first family is never restored.

The rest of your note is interesting, and I pretty much agree with it. Pain serves a useful function, at least at times. It certainly does when we are about to touch something that could burn us. Cancer is, however, another story. I can't for the life of me figure out anything "useful" about having cancer or any other horrible disease.

Aside from the "burn warning" alarm function, I can't think of too many benefits to having pain. We all want to be rid of it. And trying to find some kind of blessing or benefit in it is just silly, IMO. Not everything on earth is beneficial to mankind. Some things are just bad, period.
I do remember this but there was a debate in a theology class I took regarding this, what if Job particularly liked one of his sons or daughters who God allowed the devil to kill? We are humans and sometimes we do favor one child over another. It's natural.

Anyway, it has always bothered me that God would allow Satan, Lucifer, the devil, to harm one of beloved followers over a bet? What kind of a diety needs that? And do we? The whole idea makes me very uncomfortable. What about you?
 
Science cures not God.
If you give up on living all the science in the world will not cure/save you, but if you believe in a higher power, even when science says you will die, people have recovered. IMO, it takes both.
 
To the authors of the Bible, yes, that would have made more sense, in human terms. At least we could say God was punishing the bad man. A big part of the Book of Job is understanding that Job was a good man, who followed all the rules, and still got whomped.

About your second sentence, are you saying that the Bible didn't say that God created all the animals? Of course it says that, right in the first chapter of Genesis! See Genesis 1:20-27, where it describes all the different types of animals He created, just before Man.
I am saying only man was created in gods image. As for the Bible, a book written by men, you have to read it with a grain of salt. The Ten Commandments, carved in stone, are the only thing that I am aware of that was written by the God of the Old Testament, who was not the forgiving type.

As for the animals, hmm, didn’t they change as they crawled out of the ocean. Didn’t a lot of them die out? Are the s I also now the ones the Bible says god created or have they evolved to a point where they bear little resemblance to the ones god created? Idk.
 
Anyway, it has always bothered me that God would allow Satan, Lucifer, the devil, to harm one of beloved followers over a bet? What kind of a diety needs that? And do we? The whole idea makes me very uncomfortable. What about you?
Chic, the entire characterization of God makes me "uncomfortable," which is one reason I am an atheist. The description of God, and the way He thinks and behaves in the Bible, sounds to me like the strutting and self-aggrandizement of a human tyrant. He needs to be constantly praised? Why? He has favorites, plays tricks, tests people in very cruel ways (telling Abraham to kill Isaac, his only son, as a "test" of loyalty?), inflicting plagues, floods, etc. on entire populations, not to mention war. The list goes on and on.

And why would an all-powerful deity allow Satan to even exist? The whole shebang is a product of ancient human minds, who found a way to tell a good story. That's all it is.

But there are plenty of nuggets of good stuff in the Bible as well. The answer Job gets from God is one example. We don't know because we don't know. Whichever Rabbi wrote that chapter, as my late husband would have said, "had his head screwed on right."
 
I am saying only man was created in gods image. As for the Bible, a book written by men, you have to read it with a grain of salt. The Ten Commandments, carved in stone, are the only thing that I am aware of that was written by the God of the Old Testament, who was not the forgiving type.

As for the animals, hmm, didn’t they change as they crawled out of the ocean. Didn’t a lot of them die out? Are the s I also now the ones the Bible says god created or have they evolved to a point where they bear little resemblance to the ones god created? Idk.

No, that was not what you said, Aneeda. You said,"I didn’t notice in the Bible where it said god created all the animals."

Man was created in God's image? IMO, that doesn't say much for God. And just because somebody once wrote something down in a book does not make it true. Fiction is written all the time.

About the grain of salt, I agree with you. Although in my case, it's more like a ton of salt.

The Ten Commandments were written by Moses. Isn't that obvious? Anybody can write anything when hidden from public view (Moses took his time up on that mountain) and then claim that what he came down with was "written by God." Again, doesn't make it true. Moses got his credulous followers to believe him, or else use that bit of fiction for their own purposes.

And this is probably worthy of a separate topic, but take a good look at those Ten Commandments that you think were written by God, rather than by a person. The first three are a perfect example of the boasting, puffery, and demands of a tyrannical dictator. They are all about how we are ordered to worship him. Observing the Sabbath is important enough to be #4. That comes ahead of murder (which finally makes it to #6) and the other "afterthoughts" about what we should not do. I think Moses needed a good editor. ;)

About the animals, I don't understand what point you are trying to make at all. You seem to be trying to segue from literally quoting the Bible as a source of what really happened, to suddenly talking about Darwinian theories of evolution. But it does sound like you are trying to analyze, which is always a good thing.
 
No, that was not what you said, Aneeda. You said,"I didn’t notice in the Bible where it said god created all the animals."

Man was created in God's image? IMO, that doesn't say much for God. And just because somebody once wrote something down in a book does not make it true. Fiction is written all the time.

About the grain of salt, I agree with you. Although in my case, it's more like a ton of salt.

The Ten Commandments were written by Moses. Isn't that obvious? Anybody can write anything when hidden from public view (Moses took his time up on that mountain) and then claim that what he came down with was "written by God." Again, doesn't make it true. Moses got his credulous followers to believe him, or else use that bit of fiction for their own purposes.

And this is probably worthy of a separate topic, but take a good look at those Ten Commandments that you think were written by God, rather than by a person. The first three are a perfect example of the boasting, puffery, and demands of a tyrannical dictator. They are all about how we are ordered to worship him. Observing the Sabbath is important enough to be #4. That comes ahead of murder (which finally makes it to #6) and the other "afterthoughts" about what we should not do. I think Moses needed a good editor. ;)

About the animals, I don't understand what point you are trying to make at all. You seem to be trying to segue from literally quoting the Bible as a source of what really happened, to suddenly talking about Darwinian theories of evolution. But it does sound like you are trying to analyze, which is always a good thing.
😂 I’m not trying to do anything. I can not look at the Ten Commandments they have never been found so what they said is all speculation. They were written by the God of the Old Testament and sabbath was, hmm, well, not on Sunday. But then again, I have no ideal when it was because it was before JC.

Believe what you want. You are not an expert. I am not an expert. And I can not remember the Book of Job and I am not interested enough to read it. I am not wrong and I am not right, I am just giving my opinion on stuff. No I am not trying to analyze anything. This discussion is making my brain hurt. 🤯 oh, look, it exploded-now I need a brain transplant. Just Great. 🤦🏻‍♀️
 
We seem to have moved from discussing The Book of Job in terms of the current situation, presumably the COVID 19 pandemic, to whether the scriptures are literally the words of God or the ancient writings of human beings trying to understand the nature of God. This is a very contentious issue and people tend to dig in in support of their particular view of the scriptures.

I have been expressing my personal view of the Book of Job as allegory, not factual history. We do well to remember the role of centuries of oral story telling that kept the stories alive over many generations until they began to be written down on scrolls. In Jewish tradition the books of the old testament have been endlessly studied, debated and written about, searching for meaning and guidance. Christian scholars have also studied the texts in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic for the same reasons. Those of us who read the bible in our favourite English version are not likely to understand all of the nuances of the text. We take from it what we think we understand and it is not surprising that our individual interpretations and not always the same. Nor are our emotional responses. We would be wise to respect the ideas and beliefs of others because fighting amongst ourselves is to be avoided. There are many accounts in the scriptures of such discord leading to some very bad outcomes. (No, I'm not going to provide chapter and verse )
 


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