Evolution vs creationism ?

Dragonlady said:
Wow. this went downhill in a hurry! Speaking of nasty! I don't want and will not reply to this area of the thread any further. The handwriting is on the wall and this will deteriorate into further nastiness.
I do not want to be "Boss" and I do not believe you were targeting me specifically. I just want to participate in an ongoing discussion without someone presuming to censor the subject. It certainly appears that you are deliberately stirring the pot with the idea of shutting this thread down. I will post no more in answers to those attempts, but I will contoinue to post to this thread as I feel indicated
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The ignore function works well.
 

Warrigal said:
Every religion, and scientific 'history' too, has an element of mythology to it. Human beings are story tellers and their stories tend to be 'sticky' and attach themselves to other more factual events.

I would be interested to hear how Joseph Campbell deals with the mythology of Jesus. Over the centuries there has been a degree of added myths but the historic Jesus is still there at the centre of the story and he is a man of flesh and bone. His teachings have been recorded and there is a consistent core message, reduced to its essence in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus didn't waste too much time discussing the origins of man or of the earth. He preached about the present and pointed to a better future to come. Nor did he emphasise religious rituals or seek to control people with fear. Whether we believe that Jesus was also divine is up to each of us but to dismiss the historic Jesus as fiction is to ignore reality. The Jesus story is not in the same category as Hercules or King Arthur.
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Joseph Campbell was widely published; I'm sure his works are available in libraries and bookstores, and maybe articles online. He taught mythology for many years and wrote extensively on the subject of the archetype of the hero in mythology.

Campbell did not dismiss "historic" Jesus nor did he deny his existence. I never heard or read of Campbell being disrespectful toward Jesus, or anyone else for that matter. What I found fascinating is that he discussed Jesus as a historical person quite separate from the mythology that sprang up around him after his death.

Probably a better comparison than Hercules (who as far as I know was purely a fictional character) or King Arthur (about whom the jury is still out; I recently read about an archaeological dig that may have found artifacts), are the Founding Fathers of the US. They were very real people who became mythologized. One of my favorite teachers taught American history when I was a junior in high school. He would come into the classroom, sit on the edge of his desk and tell us stories about the real men who were the Founding Fathers. I thought the reality was far more interesting than the larger than life silliness we were spoonfed in our history books.
 
Thanks Jane. I will try to look into his work.

I have seen the same myth building around Mother Mary McKillop, the first Australian to be recognised as a saint by the Vatican. The real Mary was a very down to earth woman who had a concern for poor rural children who were missing out on education. She founded a new order of nuns who did not live behind convent walls. They went out in pairs to the places where children needed schooling and lived in rented rooms or even tents if need be to fulfil their mission. Mary would visit them on horseback, swimming the horse across rivers in the process. She was intrepid.

She had no truck with superstition and extended her work to include schools, hospitals and orphanages. She fell foul of the bishops who wanted to control the nuns and was excommunicated for a time but never gave up and her order was revolutionary in that it had internal self government and was not subject to rule by diocesan bishops.

I admire this woman but when she was in the process of being beatified and canonised the myth making was clearly evident. The myths were converting a real, determined, strong woman into a plaster saint, but the real woman is still there if we but look behind the myths.
 

McKillop is a great analogy, Warrigal. It actually detracts from a genuine hero when the myth overcomes the reality of the person. It seems to be a requirement of the beatification process.
 
RadishRose said:
My 2 cents; Evolution is the process that I believe God uses to create human beings as well as all creatures. So what if it takes billions of years? It's a big universe, things take time; all according to God's plan, in God's time, not ours.

I wouldn't be surprised if mathematics is the language of God.
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Yes, I've always believed science and creation will come together and all will be known.
There is SO much that is above and
beyond our comprehension.
I think we have a veil and sometimes it is cracked which is why someone struck by lightning can suddenly play concert piano. Or why an autistic child can solve the most complicated equations.
Is the dissolving of the veil true ultimate knowledge of it all?
 
My 2 cents; Evolution is the process that I believe God uses to create human beings as well as all creatures.

So, excuse me for asking "WHY?". Why did this 'god' create evolution? Why did this 'god' create a violent, imperfect universe. What is the meaning of it all? Was this just god being bored and finding something to do? I think Stephen Fry put it beautifully when asked what he would say if he confronted God.

“How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It’s not right, it’s utterly, utterly evil.

“Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That’s what I would say. ”

Well, what's the answer?
 
Capt Lightning said:
I think Stephen Fry put it beautifully when asked what he would say if he confronted God.

“How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It’s not right, it’s utterly, utterly evil.

“Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That’s what I would say. ”

Well, what's the answer?
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I see this a little differently.

I believe that God created the world and gave man the ability to deal with what comes his way but it is up to man develop his skills and use his god given talents to create a decent life in an imperfect world. I don't see God as a helicopter parent that will hover over us and protect us or erase the obstacles from our lives.
 
Exactly correct in my most humble estimation. Whether a person believes one thing or the other is a personal choice like which type of diet one chooses to endorse. There should be no stipulations as to how and why one would "get along" with other people on a forum such as this. i.E. I believe this and that and I will get along with other people's beliefs if they do this and that. A simply daft attitude to take.

As I wrote earlier, I do not really care whether one believes in evolution or creationism. I have a few friends who are devout atheists while I am a minister of the gospel but we know where the lines are drawn and dare not to cross them. We workout and train together, talk and share our thoughts and experiences and no one is the worse for it so how is it that a simple discussion forum such as this one creates so much angst from a singular query? Perhaps the disconnection of one person to the other might be the answer for I do not believe that angry discussions are maintained in a physical one on one debate in full public view.
 
I accept the criticisms. Next time I have a problem or suggestion, I will contact a site administrator directly or post in the Forum Support and Suggestions thread. I stand corrected (and humbled).
 
Capt Lightning said:
My 2 cents; Evolution is the process that I believe God uses to create human beings as well as all creatures.

So, excuse me for asking "WHY?". Why did this 'god' create evolution? Why did this 'god' create a violent, imperfect universe. What is the meaning of it all? Was this just god being bored and finding something to do? I think Stephen Fry put it beautifully when asked what he would say if he confronted God.

“How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It’s not right, it’s utterly, utterly evil.

“Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That’s what I would say. ”

Well, what's the answer?
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So you will ask why.
 
Big Horn said:
Dragonlady wants to be boss.
I believe that the theory of evolution through natural selection currently offers the best explanation of the origination of species. However, I wish that this position didn't place me in the same category as Dragonlady and a few of her comrades. They're a very nasty bunch.
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No one would ever place you in the same camp, Big Horn.
It is one thing to have a peaceful discussion and sharing of ideas (which we were all doing just fine, regardless of our opinions on the topic); but when the thread degenerates into verbal abuse of other people instead of intelligent discussion, then it is really no longer a topic thread, but a bashing thread.

This is exactly why Matrix had to stop allowing political discussions here.
Debating a political or religious topic is one thing, and perfectly fine; but when it turns into name-calling and vindictiveness, then it is time to put an end to that kind of a topic, and so he banned politics.
This thread was never intended to be a rant about religious beliefs(or lack of them), it was simply a discussion thread about how we think the world might have come into being, and with our reasons for thinking the way we do.
There is no reason to disrespect anyone for what their personal opinion might be. We can all listen to each other, and if we are open-minded, we can all learn from each other.
To me, that is the purpose of any discussion, is to see what we can learn from it.
 
Gary O' said:
And this is where it all goes
I, too, have been in long term debates, and closed door conferences for over 30 years
There is little reward, if any, to ‘winning’
Oh, and toss in some pseudo philosophy to keep the pot stirred

Now, about that pie
Cherry has always been my fav
I think, if anyone has any sense at all, it should be theirs

Arguments?

Anyone?



NQhqOta.jpg
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No problem at all. I love lemon but I would share a cherry pie with you anytime and enjoy it.
 
Capt Lightning said:
My 2 cents; Evolution is the process that I believe God uses to create human beings as well as all creatures.

So, excuse me for asking "WHY?". Why did this 'god' create evolution? Why did this 'god' create a violent, imperfect universe. What is the meaning of it all? Was this just god being bored and finding something to do? I think Stephen Fry put it beautifully when asked what he would say if he confronted God.

“How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It’s not right, it’s utterly, utterly evil.

“Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That’s what I would say. ”

Well, what's the answer?
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You will never find out. There are some things in this universe that do not settle down to a definitive answer.

Some problems are not solvable. Our human brain has a hard time with that.
 
When it comes to religion, people have a choice, have faith in what is written or not. Pointing out that fossil remains of primitive mankind doesn't paint a pretty picture of made in his image or likeness. Fossil remains tell a story not explained by religion.


As stories go I'd like to be living as long as Noah did according to Genesis 9:28 & 9:29


Shem's Blessing and Noah's Death 9:28 Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood. 9:29 So all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years, and he died.…
New American Standard Bible
http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-28.htm


The reason I'd like to live for 950 years I'm convinced the mystery of why earth has a wealth of life forms would be solved. Having faith in a creator that according to fossil remains has to be older than the stories is a personal choice, if it makes a person comfortable who can argue against that?
 
Well, since Dragonlady won't be reading this post just like she hasn't read my latest post (I'm on ignore) I feel free to post this.

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted to touch a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

http://www.kindspring.org/story/view.php?sid=63753
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I would be most disappointed if the ban on all things political were to be extended to include all matters pertaining to religion.
What are we, children? Can we not as mature adults choose to participate in a thread that interests us and choose to disengage if the level of interaction take a turn that displeases us?
 
Olivia, remember that you are on the internet. Don't take things personally. A snarky response from some stranger should be like water off a duck's back. There are no scars unless you start internalising negative comments.
 
Olivia said:
I was making a joke to lighten things up. Okay, I guess I deserved that.
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Sort of like the young monk in your story.

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

Great story!
 

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