Four-year-old boy joins school as a girl

[Warrigal]

I have never seen a forum like this. You can actually engage in a controversial subject without insults and calmly discuss your thoughts. I have found a home I believe. I taught school in Fla for 40 yrs. From 78 to 2018. Elementary. I usually could tell when a kid was gay by 3/4th grade. But no always. Later in my career I had kids that didnt fit the norm of girl or boy.

I had a girl in 3rd grade insist she was a boy. She looked like a boy. Her older sister said it made their grandmother angry. They lived with her. I had another girl that looked like a boy and she turned out to be gay. I had a twin who was gay. She was the dominant one to who her brother twin. I guess what I think is people are wired differently and need compassion not judgement or laws to diminish them.

I hear that teachers can groom kids to be a certain way. I never saw it happen. Teachers were so busy with so much to do, record and teach the last thing would be trying to influence a kid to be something else. I loved working with kids and learned more from them Im sure than they did from me. Many just needed you to listen to them. Maybe a hug sometimes. I swear some had reptiles for parents.

I was a tomboy as a young child. I loved climbing trees and fences even though I was always wearing a dress, and my favourite games were adventure games like cowboys and indians, Tarzan, and pirates. I had no interest in dolls but would dress the family dog up in a baby bonnet and take her for a walk in a doll's pram. I didn't have a tea set but would play mud pies with dobs of mud on mulberry leaves.

I wasn't a boy but I liked playing with boys. Did I say playing? I liked wrestling with them and playing Robin Hood with our self made bows and arrows. I could shout as loud as any of the boys and could swim underwater across the council olympic swimming pool on one deep breath.

When puberty struck all that ended. I had to always be "ladylike" and I no longer had boys to play with. I resented the restrictions placed on me as a girl that were never visited on boys. I thought that I had lost out by being born female. However, while I sometimes wished that I was a boy, I never believed that I was a male in a female body. I was just a female who was good at maths and science and hopeless as knitting and sewing.

If for some reason I had had a strong belief that I was a male who was born with the wrong physiology I hope that I would have been treated considerately with kindness and a lot of counselling. It takes a lot of time for any young person to understand their true self.

 

[Debrah N.]

I have pretty strong views about sexuality, which I won't post here because I know where that would go............ But I'd also be very very wary of internet medics diagnosing based on their degree from the university of Google. All we really know about this situation are a couple of tabloidish stories in the daily rags. Yet look at how many people are ready to have the child committed and the parents shot.

...............

By saying, "it's what is in the brain" is also fuzzy talk, imo. You mean some physical or chemical aspect of the brain, or ideas and thoughts? Either way, sex is ultimately determined by chromosomes, and not anything to do with the brain as such.

Finding information from credible sources is a legitimate to include in discussions of this sort. Not like opinions based on 'what Aunt Margie said'. And your assertion that it has nothing to do with the brain, isn't borne out by the research that has been done. A quick read of the following link says: The brains of transgender women ranged between cisgender men and cisgender women (albeit still closer to cisgender men),........These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity.




Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

 

[Rose65]

Ridiculous, the whole gender thing. This world is now gripped by such meaningless nonsense.

 

[Debrah N.]

So let me ask you. What % of children are affected by this, and what % of children today are deemed born in the wrong body? Has this gone up or down, and are the figures due to a wider acceptance, or an increase in those affected?

I mean, I hear what you're saying, but what % of people have this measured? Or do we simply accept as assertion?

Well apparently Canada is one of the few countries that has done a bit of a study on the numbers of the population that identify this way and the rate their website says is .33% of the population according to the 2021 census, in the age group above 15. It goes on to give some numbers for the various generational groups.

Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%)
Millennials (born between 1981 and 1996, 0.51%)
Generation X (born between 1966 and 1980, 0.19%)
Baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1965, 0.15%)
Interwar and Greatest Generations (born in 1945 or earlier, 0.12%).
The Daily — Canada is the first country to provide census data on transgender and non-binary people

And maybe the greater number of the most recent generation being willing to make it known that they feel this way is simply because the world is changing and they feel safe enough to be up front about it. Let's face it, the world has typically been a very dangerous place for any person who is different.

I had a thought as I was reading this. It could be that as more household and industrial chemicals have come into our environment, it is perhaps possible that it's causing changes in how fetus's are developing with the result being, a growing number of transgender individuals coming along. Now that's me mulling over possibilities, not being Dr. Google.

I once listened to a discussion on chemicals called 'obesegens'. These are chemicals in the environment in plastics, fire proofing chemicals, dyes, etc., that are actually changing the DNA of the unborn, and that are changing how easy/hard it is for people to gain or lose weight. And when those average weight babies reach a certain place of development, they begin putting on weight even though they're active and eat properly. Then they live in that same polluted environment, then have their own children whose DNA is already different and still being impacted by those same chemicals......

 

[Debrah N.]

In regards to forcing people to comply to society's norm such as all these pronouns is laughable by me and many people living outside of the US. They try to ask me the "why" and I just laugh as I really do not know or can find the words. In regards to a child coming home at 3, 4 & 5 and say to their parent/s they don't want to be a certain gender anymore because... is beyond me.

Then again, I spend a lot of time travelling and this is not the norm in other countries nor is it the norm for my ears. But...more power to the parents who will act and comply with these children in an effort "to make them happy". Let's see how this will work out at the end for all involved. I have also read a study with gender changes-- where many have stated that they regretted the operation.

Gender identity worldwide by country 2023 | Statista Apparently each country seems to have a similar ratio of transgender people.....

As for the pronoun issue, if I happened to meet a transgender person and they asked me to use their pronouns, out of politeness I would make the effort.

 

[George1959]

This is the opinion of a former man who got gen.er reassignment surgery:
Debbie Hayton

 

[stephenPE]

And maybe the greater number of the most recent generation being willing to make it known that they feel this way is simply because the world is changing and they feel safe enough to be up front about it. Let's face it, the world has typically been a very dangerous place for any person who is different.

Excellent point. I was in Winnipeg Canada back in the 90s and was amazed at the level of intelligence and awareness in the editorial part of their newspaper. I know it sounds odd but I read that religiously in my papers here in Fla. and it was like night and day. They were discussing important issues instead of ranting about silly stuff.

 

[Debrah N.]

This is the opinion of a former man who got gen.er reassignment surgery:
Debbie Hayton

CNN published a piece on that issue and apparently the study that they were quoting was 1% of those who get the surgery, regret it. Now in Canada, in 2021, the Census actually asked how many people are transgender and they found that about .33% of the population identifies that way. So 1% of .33% is a completely minuscule number. Apparently the vast majority of transgender people are completely satisfied with their new lifestyle and find peace.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/09/heal...ew of multiple studies,, only 1% regretted it.

 

[stephenPE]

And here in America we pass laws to make their decisions. I cannot imagine what its like to be born seeing yourself one way and believing yourself another way. I just have empathy for these people. Judging someone for being born a certain way is bizarre.

 

[Timewise 60+]

In those days, many people dressed little ones as girls sometimes. My grandmother told me it was a kind of fad for awhile. Nothing serious.

Rose.....exactly! Well said...

 

[Timewise 60+]

I grew up in a small town. I recall two girls that were considered to be "Tomboys". They both were very athletic and wore slacks whenever they could. They played with boys in games outdoors and were competitive. When they were in 8th grade going into high school, I recall that they were two of the best looking, most popular girls in town. They transitioned...

At the time I never thought much of it, it just all seemed normal to those of us that lived in that town. It still does seem normal to me; they both were great friends and could have been someone I dated if my family had not moved.

 

[VaughanJB]

Finding information from credible sources is a legitimate to include in discussions of this sort. Not like opinions based on 'what Aunt Margie said'. And your assertion that it has nothing to do with the brain, isn't borne out by the research that has been done. A quick read of the following link says: The brains of transgender women ranged between cisgender men and cisgender women (albeit still closer to cisgender men),........These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity.




Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

I'm sorry, I really don't want to go here because I think this topic is so contentious. But are we really entering a world where we need a brain scan to tell us the biological sex of a person? Whether someone wants to live as the opposite sex isn't the issue, I'm fine with that, we have the freedom to live as we choose. Pre-determination by brain type is not a fact as far as I know. I find it troubling we are picking and choosing body parts to prove a point, but *******s apparently count for nothing.

I'm sorry, I've already spoken beyond my comfort level on this forum.

 

[Debrah N.]

I'm sorry, I really don't want to go here because I think this topic is so contentious. But are we really entering a world where we need a brain scan to tell us the biological sex of a person? Whether someone wants to live as the opposite sex isn't the issue, I'm fine with that, we have the freedom to live as we choose. Pre-determination by brain type is not a fact as far as I know. I find it troubling we are picking and choosing body parts to prove a point, but *******s apparently count for nothing.

I'm sorry, I've already spoken beyond my comfort level on this forum.

Well yes, I guess we've entered a world where the medical profession is finally realizing that human 'sexuality' is on a spectrum and that there are legitimate ways to tell besides just visual inspections. I would like to think that we're also now in a world where people are learning to get along and not just have knee jerk reactions to others who may be 'different'.

No one is picking and choosing body parts to prove a point. I never form opinions based on my personal comfort level Vaughan, but instead try to decide how I should think about something, based on facts whether from medical research or climate research, etc. Internet 'opinions' never form part of my own decisions because those are too often based on other people's comfort level.

 

[VaughanJB]

Well yes, I guess we've entered a world where the medical profession is finally realizing that human 'sexuality' is on a spectrum and that there are legitimate ways to tell besides just visual inspections. I would like to think that we're also now in a world where people are learning to get along and not just have knee jerk reactions to others who may be 'different'.

No one is picking and choosing body parts to prove a point. I never form opinions based on my personal comfort level Vaughan, but instead try to decide how I should think about something, based on facts whether from medical research or climate research, etc. Internet 'opinions' never form part of my own decisions because those are too often based on other people's comfort level.

But honestly, fundamentally, do people really have an issue with this? If a guy wants to live as a woman, I really don't care. If they want to take pills to change bodily functions (hormonally) then that's up to them and their medical professionals. If they want to have surgery to cosmetically appear as the opposite biological sex, then again - that's up to them and their surgeons. I have no issue with it.

Where it gets contentious is when we talk about people (children) who aren't of a legal age to represent themselves. Or when trans women want access to the women's changing rooms of bathrooms. Or when trans women want to enter combat sports (or swimming) on a professional level. etc.

It's an issue because it impedes of the freedoms and choices of others, be it a child, women in a rest room, or a professional sports person being denied due credit for their achievements.

Causation isn't really applicable at this level, imo. Let's assume someone has a "female brain", but everything else about them is male - are they male or female biologically? For me, they're male. They can opt to live differently, and that's up to them. But it doesn't change the fundamental fact. So I'd ask you, are their people out there, with "female brains", but happily living as their biological sex? Does having a "female brain" determine the outcome, or it simply a shared characteristic?

 

[Debrah N.]

But honestly, fundamentally, do people really have an issue with this? If a guy wants to live as a woman, I really don't care. If they want to take pills to change bodily functions (hormonally) then that's up to them and their medical professionals. If they want to have surgery to cosmetically appear as the opposite biological sex, then again - that's up to them and their surgeons. I have no issue with it.

Where it gets contentious is when we talk about people (children) who aren't of a legal age to represent themselves. Or when trans women want access to the women's changing rooms of bathrooms. Or when trans women want to enter combat sports (or swimming) on a professional level. etc.

It's an issue because it impedes of the freedoms and choices of others, be it a child, women in a rest room, or a professional sports person being denied due credit for their achievements.

Causation isn't really applicable at this level, imo. Let's assume someone has a "female brain", but everything else about them is male - are they male or female biologically? For me, they're male. They can opt to live differently, and that's up to them. But it doesn't change the fundamental fact. So I'd ask you, are their people out there, with "female brains", but happily living as their biological sex? Does having a "female brain" determine the outcome, or it simply a shared characteristic?

I don't have any issue with this but lots do. In my province, the premier just decided she's going to ban all transgender care until people reach 18 and that includes puberty blockers. The problem is, taking puberty blockers after male/female features have reached puberty is pointless. Boys will develop deep voices, Adam's apples, male-er looking facial features, etc. and if they choose to go with a transition, they'll be stuck with what is, if you know what I mean. Females will go through the female changes and likewise, be stuck with what is.

Whereas if they take puberty blockers until they're 18 and then decide not to go with the transition, just quitting the meds restarts the process of puberty and all is good . But our premier gave in to all the fearful voices around her and made a medical decision for other people. A decision which up til now, has been made by parents, their child and numerous medical professionals including therapists, councillors and doctors. I don't know about where you live, but in Canada, kids are not waltzing into a surgeon's office and making those kinds of final decisions on their own. The whole thing takes years and any surgeries cannot happen until a person is 18 or over.

The one place I'm in agreement with you I think, is in sports. Every decision we make, potentially has a price to pay and I think that if an athlete wants to transition, then the price is competition.

As to your question about 'female brains and living their biological sex', I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you referring to people who have a more female brain but continuing to live as men because that's how they look outwardly? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they live like what we used to call 'cross dressers' because for whatever reason, they choose not to transition.

 

[AnnieA]

Just now reading through the thread @Pepper. The OP link is to the Telegraph, not the Daily Mail and is behind a pay wall since the Telegraph is subscription only. Maybe the DM is stalking your computer

 

[AnnieA]

Well apparently Canada is one of the few countries that has done a bit of a study on the numbers of the population that identify this way and the rate their website says is .33% of the population according to the 2021 census, in the age group above 15. It goes on to give some numbers for the various generational groups.

Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%)
Millennials (born between 1981 and 1996, 0.51%)
Generation X (born between 1966 and 1980, 0.19%)
Baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1965, 0.15%)
Interwar and Greatest Generations (born in 1945 or earlier, 0.12%).
The Daily — Canada is the first country to provide census data on transgender and non-binary people

And maybe the greater number of the most recent generation being willing to make it known that they feel this way is simply because the world is changing and they feel safe enough to be up front about it. Let's face it, the world has typically been a very dangerous place for any person who is different.

I had a thought as I was reading this. It could be that as more household and industrial chemicals have come into our environment, it is perhaps possible that it's causing changes in how fetus's are developing with the result being, a growing number of transgender individuals coming along. Now that's me mulling over possibilities, not being Dr. Google.

I once listened to a discussion on chemicals called 'obesegens'. These are chemicals in the environment in plastics, fire proofing chemicals, dyes, etc., that are actually changing the DNA of the unborn, and that are changing how easy/hard it is for people to gain or lose weight. And when those average weight babies reach a certain place of development, they begin putting on weight even though they're active and eat properly. Then they live in that same polluted environment, then have their own children whose DNA is already different and still being impacted by those same chemicals......

Very interesting. I wouldn't doubt chemicals and microplastics play a roll in the increase.

There seem to be several possibilities. Toxins detailed above, attention seeking parents of the very young, adolescent exploration/rebellion/angst and then those who are genetically wired opposite and would've been without toxin exposure.

 

[Sunny]

Talking about "female brains" and "male brains" makes no sense to me. Aren't we all somewhere on a continuum in that area? How many of us are purely, 100% male or female in our thoughts?

IMO, a person with male physical characteristics who might be straight or gay (or something else), and who loves fashion design, cooking, or any of the other things that have been designated "female,"and who is a soft, nurturing, gentle person, is still a male. People come in more than one flavor.

 

[Paladin1950]

I identify as an American, British, and German human.

 

[astralcat]

Temporary use of puberty blocker Lupron has been associated with and may be the cause of many serious permanent side effects including osteoporosis, mood disorders, seizures, cognitive impairment and, when combined with cross-sex hormones, sterility. In addition to the harm from Lupron, cross-sex hormones put youth at an increased risk of heart attacks, stroke, diabetes, blood clots and cancers across their lifespan

Many medical organizations around the world, including the Australian College of Physicians, the Royal College of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom, and the Swedish National Council for Medical Ethics have characterized these interventions in children as experimental and dangerous. World renowned Swedish psychiatrist Dr. Christopher Gillberg has said that pediatric transition is “possibly one of the greatest scandals in medical history” and called for “an immediate moratorium on the use of puberty blocker drugs because of their unknown long-term effects.”

 

[Debrah N.]

Talking about "female brains" and "male brains" makes no sense to me. Aren't we all somewhere on a continuum in that area? How many of us are purely, 100% male or female in our thoughts?

IMO, a person with male physical characteristics who might be straight or gay (or something else), and who loves fashion design, cooking, or any of the other things that have been designated "female,"and who is a soft, nurturing, gentle person, is still a male. People come in more than one flavor.

It only doesn't make sense (male brains/female brains) because you haven't looked it up in the past. But I heard of this years ago, when I read about a doctor who got curious about whether transgender people had brain tissue that was more like their assigned gender at birth, or the one they wanted to be. In those days apparently, his only way to find out was to put the word out to the medical community of the time, that if they had any patients die who were trans, could they send him their brains for research.

What he discovered was that in the area that controls our sexuality, males brains and females brains look different and the transgender brain in that specific region, looked more like the gender they aspired to be. Rather than resembling the brain tissue that should have matched their assigned at birth gender. Things like different thicknesses, different density, etc.

Nowadays I guess, there are machines that can determine things about our brains that confirm the same finding, without having to autopsy them.

 

[Debrah N.]

Temporary use of puberty blocker Lupron has been associated with and may be the cause of many serious permanent side effects including osteoporosis, mood disorders, seizures, cognitive impairment and, when combined with cross-sex hormones, sterility. In addition to the harm from Lupron, cross-sex hormones put youth at an increased risk of heart attacks, stroke, diabetes, blood clots and cancers across their lifespan

Many medical organizations around the world, including the Australian College of Physicians, the Royal College of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom, and the Swedish National Council for Medical Ethics have characterized these interventions in children as experimental and dangerous. World renowned Swedish psychiatrist Dr. Christopher Gillberg has said that pediatric transition is “possibly one of the greatest scandals in medical history” and called for “an immediate moratorium on the use of puberty blocker drugs because of their unknown long-term effects.”

Yes, I've heard that too and that's one of the reasons why the parents and young people who are thinking about going that route, are apprised of those side effects and counselled by the doctors and therapists they're seeing. All kinds of drugs have side effects and nobody is allowed to make those decisions for any of us, except in this one case it would seem.

And for every doctor who is against this kind of treatment, there are many who aren't.

 

[DaveA]

At 90 my mind may be fading but I seem to recall wearing a white nightgown when I was a little guy back in the early 30's. I didn't have any sisters so it wasn't a hand-me-down.

 

[oldman]

I always knew what I was and in fact, I was never aware that you could try to change your gender.