Gay wedding cake Supreme Court case

[Della]

It's hard to understand because disease as far as I know isn't related to a religious belief. To put it tis way 6 billion people alive & enjoying life as much as they can vs. death due to a war based on a religious belief doesn't compare at all.

I think how people interpret guidance be it from the Quran the Bible or whatever their belief stems from the interpretation varies. That negative not loving thy neighbor variation IMO is the basis for what we see happening like the bake shop citing religious belief as a reason to not make that c

I was not comparing disease to religious belief, I was comparing causes of grief.
Someone said that the number one cause of grief in the world was wars caused by religion. I disagree. You asked me if I discounted the grief caused by 911. Of course not. I don't discount any form of grief, but do you discount the grief a mother has when her child dies of smallpox? No the smallpox wasn't caused by religion but her grief was just as terrible. That's all I'm saying. Not all the grief in the world is caused by religion. Not even most of the grief.

It's been said many times on this thread that the bake shop owner is intolerant and hatefilled. Maybe he is. Or maybe not. Maybe he likes the gay couple, he has served them before, but when they asked for a cake specifically to celebrate a gay wedding, he may have felt that if he made the cake he would be condoning same sex marriage, thereby committing a sin according to his beliefs. By going directly against the teachings of Jesus* he may have been afraid he himself would go to Hell. So his refusal would be to save himself not based on any sort of hatred for the couple. For all we know he loves them and prays for them every night.

*Jesus didn't ever speak specifically about homosexuality, but he was a devout Jew who followed Old Testament laws like this one from Leviticus: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Jesus would not have hated anyone, but that doesn't mean he thought everything they did was good. He loved everyone and he forgave prostitutes, theives and murderers. That didn't mean he thought prostitution, stealing and murder were okay things to do.

Fundamentalist Christians, like the baker, still believe those things are wrong. If someone had asked for a cake to give to a prostitute in exchange for sex he probably would have said no to that too.

I myself believe, like most modern day Christians, that alternate orientation is a perfectly acceptable personal choice. I am an Episcopalian. My local Bishop is a lesbian. But I repect those whose belief is more strictly Bible adherrent, just as I respect people who follow other religions, or none at all.

I don't think the gay couple has the right to force the baker to go against his deeply held personal beliefs to make them a cake. In fact I think it is unkind, intorerant and rather hatefull of them to ask him to do that, just for the sake of their cake which than can easily bake themselves.

I believe it's the baker's constitutional right to practice his religion of choice both in and out of his business.

 

[CallMeKate]

a cake specifically to celebrate a gay wedding, he may have felt that if he made the cake he would be condoning same sex marriage, thereby committing a sin according to his beliefs. By going directly against the teachings of Jesus* he may have been afraid he himself would go to Hell.

Good post, @Della . I want to address the part I highlighted in the quote because reading it made me realize/wonder something. I wonder if we'd be having this same "moral indignation" pushback if a bakery owner practiced Islam and declined to do something he/she felt was a sin to their beliefs? Or a Wiccan? Or is it all simply because it concerns a Christian... not sure I want to know the answer. Would all the atheists and agnostics be clutching their pearls if a Muslim baker didn't want to do a "God is good and He is Lord" cake? Bet we would have never heard a word about it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Isn’t being prejudice against others a sin?
The list why people can be prejudice could be a mile long, yet it’s still discrimination no matter how its worded or who it is.

What if this couple were a mixed race and their personal beliefs were that different races shouldn’t mix?

What if it were a couple that had a 50 year difference in age ?

What if it were a couple and the man came in wearing a dagger since it’s part of his religious custom to wear one. A kirpan? Or a Jamba?

What if it was an ex convict asking for a cake?

Maybe a prostitute who sells herself at the corner from where this bakery is?

Or maybe it’s a guy with tattoos and nose ring?

Maybe it’s a clairvoyant medium who does readings for a living.

What about a pregnant unwed woman?

How about a homeless person?

What if a gang of bikers ordered a cake?

What if it’s a polygamous marriage and the man has 7 wives and wants a wedding cake for the 8th wife?

Maybe there should be a notice on the door stating all these prejudices as a warning to others. A list of people who won’t be tolerated or served.

According to this article there’s a huge list of people Christian’s should avoid.

https://medium.com/@amie.stockstill...to-stay-away-from-certain-people-47f52c5f5d15

This bakery is providing a public service and the public is generally very diverse. If these bakers can’t handle the diversity of their customers, maybe they are in the wrong type of business.

 

[Sunny]

This country has a long, ugly history of various groups being refused service or entry into business establishments, whether because of their race, religion, country of origin, or sexual orientation. The civil rights movement did away with most of this stuff, and in spite of all the nonsense, the country is probably a lot less overtly cruel than it used to be.

But it's hard to know where to draw the line between the rights of the customers and the rights of the business owners. This wedding cake thing is a perfect example. As I've said already, what about the Nazis who would want to force a Jewish bakery to provide a cake with a swastika? Less extreme, what about a political candidate that the bakery owner believes is a threat to this country, and he/she wants a cake promoting their candidacy?

The judge should probably side with the shop owner, horrendous as their attitudes might be. They should have the right to refuse to make the cake, and I think it would then be appropriate for the gay community to launch a full-scale boycott of that business, with all the publicity they can toss in. And for heaven's sakes, find another, friendlier baker, get a beautiful cake, and enjoy your wedding!

 

[PeppermintPatty]

I was not comparing disease to religious belief, I was comparing causes of grief.
Someone said that the number one cause of grief in the world was wars caused by religion. I disagree. You asked me if I discounted the grief caused by 911. Of course not. I don't discount any form of grief, but do you discount the grief a mother has when her child dies of smallpox? No the smallpox wasn't caused by religion but her grief was just as terrible. That's all I'm saying. Not all the grief in the world is caused by religion. Not even most of the grief.

It's been said many times on this thread that the bake shop owner is intolerant and hatefilled. Maybe he is. Or maybe not. Maybe he likes the gay couple, he has served them before, but when they asked for a cake specifically to celebrate a gay wedding, he may have felt that if he made the cake he would be condoning same sex marriage, thereby committing a sin according to his beliefs. By going directly against the teachings of Jesus* he may have been afraid he himself would go to Hell. So his refusal would be to save himself not based on any sort of hatred for the couple. For all we know he loves them and prays for them every night.

*Jesus didn't ever speak specifically about homosexuality, but he was a devout Jew who followed Old Testament laws like this one from Leviticus: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Jesus would not have hated anyone, but that doesn't mean he thought everything they did was good. He loved everyone and he forgave prostitutes, theives and murderers. That didn't mean he thought prostitution, stealing and murder were okay things to do.

Fundamentalist Christians, like the baker, still believe those things are wrong. If someone had asked for a cake to give to a prostitute in exchange for sex he probably would have said no to that too.

I myself believe, like most modern day Christians, that alternate orientation is a perfectly acceptable personal choice. I am an Episcopalian. My local Bishop is a lesbian. But I repect those whose belief is more strictly Bible adherrent, just as I respect people who follow other religions, or none at all.

I don't think the gay couple has the right to force the baker to go against his deeply held personal beliefs to make them a cake. In fact I think it is unkind, intorerant and rather hatefull of them to ask him to do that, just for the sake of their cake which than can easily bake themselves.

I believe it's the baker's constitutional right to practice his religion of choice both in and out of his business.

Your local Bishop is a lesbian but you respect those whose belief is more strictly Bible adherent?

Aren’t you being a tad hypocritical?

How do we know these two men aren’t religious and follow the Bible?

Not all religious people are without sin.
In fact, how does one completely follow scripture and survive in our world today without breaking some religious rules?

 

[CallMeKate]

The point is whether or not we'd be having this conversation if an atheist would have declined making a Christian cake. Or if there'd be as much ugliness. Don't you wonder, being honest with yourself, if you'd be having the same reactions if a Pagan didn't want to do a Christian cake? Or would you say "they can't force an atheist to make a cake with the words of Jesus on it?!" (And yes, of course a gay couple's cake is different from opposing religions, but this goes much deeper.)

 

[CallMeKate]

. Okay, trying again. Say a straight couple was part of a group that condemed homosexualty. They plan a rally against the gay community and go to a gay owned bakery and order a cake with a scripture I will not repeat or paste here because ... well, because I don't wish to, but it's about homosexuality. We all know how many people interpret that scripture. Personal thoughts and interpretations aside, would you dig your heels in as deep if a straight couple wanted a gay owned bakery to put THAT on a cake and they felt (as they should) that they should not be forced to do that? They should absolutely have the right to say "no, we can't in good conscience make this cake, please find another bakery." Would we be hearing all the indignation?

 

[Della]

Your local Bishop is a lesbian but you respect those whose belief is more strictly Bible adherent?

Aren’t you being a tad hypocritical?

How do we know these two men aren’t religious and follow the Bible?

Not all religious people are without sin.
In fact, how does one completely follow scripture and survive in our world today without breaking some religious rules?

I don't understand why you think I'm being hypocritical. I believe one thing, I respect people who believe other things.

For all I know those two gay men are Christians, we have several gay and lesbian members in my small church. I don't see how that would change anything I've said.

I certainly don't believe all religious people are without sin, in fact I don't think anyone is. Where are you getting this?

On the contrary, in the Episcopal and Lutheran church (mine is these two combined) we pray as part of the service every Sunday, that we have sinned in thought word and deed and we ask forgiveness for what we have done and for the things we have left undone.

We confess that we have failed to love others as ourselves, and we all say "If we say we have no sin then the truth is not in us."

In other words we admit, every Sunday that we have failed to meet the standards Christ has set for us. That's how hard we think it is, but we ask for forgiveness and prepare to try again.

 

[JeeperDon]

 

[Alligatorob]

Right, you can find many examples over thousands of years. Where are the counter examples of countries without religion and how they lived peacefully for thousands of years?

Don't know about thousands of years, but there are a lot of countries with little religion. Some are peaceful.

5 countries with the highest possible ranges of agnostics and atheists:

• Sweden (46-85%),
• Vietnam (81%),
• Denmark (43-80%),
• Norway (31-72%), and
• Japan (64-65%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion

 

[oscash]

Why don't the gay couple go to another cake shop that has no prejudice against them.? It's not worth arguing because if someone has strict rules then that is their problem. Why let something so trivial spoil their happy moment.

 

[Knight]

Why don't the gay couple go to another cake shop that has no prejudice against them.? It's not worth arguing because if someone has strict rules then that is their problem. Why let something so trivial spoil their happy moment.

Because over the years it took legislation to get to the point where LGBT people would recognized as being people not an abomination as the bible calls them. The bible also says in John1 that we are all God's children, so to deny based on religion might be saying God has favorites & that benevolent God hates what he created.

Really kind of hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that gays & lesbians were recognized in the bible & yet even now citing religious belief to deny what is clearly just others humans wanting to be treated equally.

Why should they have to go somewhere else if you wouldn't have to?

 

[Della]

Isn’t being prejudice against others a sin?
The list why people can be prejudice could be a mile long, yet it’s still discrimination no matter how its worded or who it is.

What if this couple were a mixed race and their personal beliefs were that different races shouldn’t mix?

What if it were a couple that had a 50 year difference in age ?

What if it were a couple and the man came in wearing a dagger since it’s part of his religious custom to wear one. A kirpan? Or a Jamba?

What if it was an ex convict asking for a cake?

Maybe a prostitute who sells herself at the corner from where this bakery is?

Or maybe it’s a guy with tattoos and nose ring?

Maybe it’s a clairvoyant medium who does readings for a living.

What about a pregnant unwed woman?

How about a homeless person?

What if a gang of bikers ordered a cake?

What if it’s a polygamous marriage and the man has 7 wives and wants a wedding cake for the 8th wife?

Maybe there should be a notice on the door stating all these prejudices as a warning to others. A list of people who won’t be tolerated or served.

According to this article there’s a huge list of people Christian’s should avoid.

https://medium.com/@amie.stockstill...to-stay-away-from-certain-people-47f52c5f5d15

This bakery is providing a public service and the public is generally very diverse. If these bakers can’t handle the diversity of their customers, maybe they are in the wrong type of business.

I don't know who all those questions are addressed to or why they apply in this case.

I do know that I've never met anyone as prejudiced and intolerant as you are against Christians.


A bakery is a retail business, it is not a public service.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Why don't the gay couple go to another cake shop that has no prejudice against them.? It's not worth arguing because if someone has strict rules then that is their problem. Why let something so trivial spoil their happy moment.

I agree. I wouldn’t want the hassle or disrespect of being rejected. Finding another baker would be the most peaceful approach. If they didn’t want my business I wouldn’t want them making my cake. Having said that I don’t think they should have been declined but I have better things to worry about.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Because over the years it took legislation to get to the point where LGBT people would recognized as being people not an abomination as the bible calls them. The bible also says in John1 that we are all God's children, so to deny based on religion might be saying God has favorites & that benevolent God hates what he created.

Really kind of hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that gays & lesbians were recognized in the bible & yet even now citing religious belief to deny what is clearly just others humans wanting to be treated equally.

Why should they have to go somewhere else if you wouldn't have to?

You stated that with such compassionate kindness. That was so very nice.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

I don't know who all those questions are addressed to or why they apply in this case.

I do know that I've never met anyone as prejudiced and intolerant as you are against Christians.


A bakery is a retail business, it is not a public service.

My post has nothing to do with intolerance.
The questions are there as examples of other possible reasons for not wanting to serve someone due to religious beliefs. All those different people might get discriminated against all due to religious beliefs making them not good enough to serve since it might intrude on their moral code of conduct.


And anyone in business serving the general public IS considered a public service. Catering to Christian’s only would be considered a private service or selective service since that’s picking and choosing who’d they’d like to serve.

It has nothing to do with my intolerance.
By the way, I was a professional baker at one time and never turned down any business. I’ve baked for Torontos Sick Kids Hospital, bulk food stores, health food stores, had a long list of personal clients and made a cake for Phantom of the Opera singers and performers.

There were never any exceptions.
I even catered to religious people.lol

Isn’t judging me as intolerant of Christian’s being judgmental and intolerant yourself?
I’m not the baker picking and choosing who I’d like to serve based on my personal preferences.

 

[Knight]

*Jesus didn't ever speak specifically about homosexuality, but he was a devout Jew who followed Old Testament laws like this one from Leviticus: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination."

Lets look at that part in your post. Would you agree that is most likely the basis for the bake shop owner to declare religion was the reason for denial? Then lets look at the definition of abomination.
Definitions from Oxford Languages
a·bom·i·na·tion
noun
a thing that causes disgust or hatred.

Jesus would not have hated anyone, but that doesn't mean he thought everything they did was good. He loved everyone and he forgave prostitutes, theives and murderers. That didn't mean he thought prostitution, stealing and murder were okay things to do.

Of course the obvious question now is. How do you know what thoughts were ?

Abomination also carries as part of the definition hatred as a thought.

Since this is using Leviticus in the bible as justification for denial why not use the various acts of vengeance in the bible as a basis to justify any violent acts? It can't be both ways & IMO that is why legislation is in place to overcome what I consider self righteous use of that part of the bible as a defense for not recognizing those as humans no different than they are.

 

[ohioboy]

Knight, does not the Bible condemn homosexuality?

 

[Knight]

Knight, does not the Bible condemn homosexuality?

According to Della's post Leviticus states that. If using the bible is what guides you then if you want to be happy this bible guidance should work.

Psalm 137:9 — The New International Version (NIV)​

9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137:9 — King James Version (KJV 1900)​

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh
And dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Psalm 137:9 — New Living Translation (NLT)​

9 Happy is the one who takes your babies
and smashes them against the rocks!

Psalm 137:9 — The New King James Version (NKJV)​

9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock!

 

[ohioboy]

What does that have to do with my direct question ?

 

[Knight]

Did you read what Della posted about Leviticus being the bible example of condemnation of people? I see others as equals not to be set apart because a bible verse dictates a particular excuse. To pick & choose which bible verse to follow seems to me to be pretty self serving and used as the reason for legislation to be put in place to right that.

 

[Gary O']

Did you read what Della posted about Leviticus being the bible example of condemnation of people? I see others as equals not to be set apart because a bible verse dictates a particular excuse. To pick & choose which bible verse to follow seems to me to be pretty self serving and used as the reason for legislation to be put in place to right that.

I pretty much get yer point @Knight

But, man

It's tough to legislate morality, if that's where yer going

 

[oscash]

Because over the years it took legislation to get to the point where LGBT people would recognized as being people not an abomination as the bible calls them. The bible also says in John1 that we are all God's children, so to deny based on religion might be saying God has favorites & that benevolent God hates what he created.

Really kind of hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that gays & lesbians were recognized in the bible & yet even now citing religious belief to deny what is clearly just others humans wanting to be treated equally.

Why should they have to go somewhere else if you wouldn't have to?

Hi Knight: If I knew some pastry business refused to serve those that are LGBT I wouldn't support their business. I have a granddaughter who is Gay and is celebrating their wedding in October. My sister totally disagrees with it, but she is not invited to their wedding.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Deleted

 

[Della]

Did you read what Della posted about Leviticus being the bible example of condemnation of people? I see others as equals not to be set apart because a bible verse dictates a particular excuse. To pick & choose which bible verse to follow seems to me to be pretty self serving and used as the reason for legislation to be put in place to right that.

Knight, you seem to have missed the part where I said that I go to a church that does not follow all the Old Testament laws but rather believes that in the New Testament Jesus showed us a new more loving path.

My, very liberal, church believes that the Old Testament is the long story of man coming from a place of worshiping many "gods", from trees to little statues, into an understanding that there is only one God. In the Old Testament humans were given the Ten Commandments as a starting point of law. People were morally barely past caveman state at that time so being told things like "Don't Murder, Don't Steal," were fairly new concepts.

Leviticus has over 600 minor laws, many of them food laws to keep desert people with no refrigeration from getting sick. Reading those laws now is like reading some of the old small town American laws they say things like, "Don't spit on the side walk." It's in among all those laws that the "abomination" law is found.

So, once again, my church doesn't follow those laws and we don't take the words of The Psalms you posted literally.

Let me say once and for all, emphatically: My church does not believe the bit about homosexuality being an abomination. We are completely accepting of people of all races, genders and orientations.

I found that quote from Leviticus in order to explain why the Baker (I am not the baker) might not want to make that cake. The Baker goes to a different kind of church than me. He goes to what's called a fundamentalist church. Fundamentalists believe that the entire Bible is "inerrant" and try to take it all literally, which is a sadly difficult endeavor. But as I said, I respect the fact that they are sincere and that they are trying.

Of course the obvious question now is. How do you know what [Jesus] thoughts were ?

Because he said them out loud. What he thought about things is expressed all through the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.