Gay wedding cake Supreme Court case

[PeppermintPatty]

Right, you can find many examples over thousands of years. Where are the counter examples of countries without religion and how they lived peacefully for thousands of years?

Since YOU are the one asking about counter examples, why don’t you find them?

 

[Della]

What does the baker care what anyone does in the privacy of their own home? None of their business. Keep it out of schools, government and public businesses. Don't tell me what to believe. It is so infuriating.

If the couple had kept it in the privacy of their own home we wouldn't be having this conversation. I believe in the separation of church and state, too. This bakery was not "state," it wasn't running on government funds like the schools, it was privately owned. The owner wasn't telling anyone what to believe, the couple was trying to force the baker to ignore his own private beliefs and do what they wanted. Being able to commission someone to bake a certain kind of cake is not a basic human right. Being able to believe whatever you want, is a basic human right.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Private beliefs and personal business should never co-exist. There would be no functioning businesses if this were the case.

 

[Della]

Since YOU are the one asking about counter examples, why don’t you find them?

I've already said that we don't have counter examples because we don't have a control group of a world without religion. If we did we might find a culture like the cavemen who still gave all the rights to the man with the biggest club.

I didn't ask for statistics showing that there were wars based on religion, we've all heard of the Crusades. I asked for statistics proving his statement "religion has caused more grief for humans than just about anything else." Where's the "anything else" statistics?

Where are the stats on domestic murders, barbarians raping women, deaths of children, plagues, smallpox (oh there's a statistic for you over 300 million deaths since 1900 alone)? There's been a whole heck of a lot of grief over the centuries that weren't caused by religion. Religion might have even helped a lot of people through that grief.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

I've already said that we don't have counter examples because we don't have a control group of a world without religion. If we did we might find a culture like the cavemen who still gave all the rights to the man with the biggest club.

I didn't ask for statistics showing that there were wars based on religion, we've all heard of the Crusades. I asked for statistics proving his statement "religion has caused more grief for humans than just about anything else." Where's the "anything else" statistics?

Where are the stats on domestic murders, barbarians raping women, deaths of children, plagues, smallpox (oh there's a statistic for you over 300 million deaths since 1900 alone)? There's been a whole heck of a lot of grief over the centuries that weren't caused by religion. Religion might have even helped a lot of people through that grief.

And you don’t think world wars fall into the category of causing grief amongst humans?

 

[s76l42]

If the couple had kept it in the privacy of their own home we wouldn't be having this conversation. I believe in the separation of church and state, too. This bakery was not "state," it wasn't running on government funds like the schools, it was privately owned. The owner wasn't telling anyone what to believe, the couple was trying to force the baker to ignore his own private beliefs and do what they wanted. Being able to commission someone to bake a certain kind of cake is not a basic human right. Being able to believe whatever you want, is a basic human right.

They wanted a specific cake which I assume revealed to the baker that they were a same sex couple, also they walked into the shop, the baker has eyes and can see. Regardless, if you run a business, opened to the public expect the "public" to enter. The public is not limited to religious, same sex couples. No one should be discriminated against.

 

[Della]

And you don’t think world wars fall into the category of causing grief amongst humans?

Of course the wars caused grief. As I just said it's the statement that they caused more grief than anything else that I'm questioning. More.

 

[Della]

Was the Civil War a religious war?


It's abundantly clear, as recent scholarship has demonstrated that religion stood at the center of the Civil War for both sides. Both North and South looked to God for meaning, and each side believed—with equal fervor and certitude—that God was on its side.

Let's just take this one as a relatively recent example. Yes, religion played an important part in the Civil War. It was Quakers who started the abolitionist movement in England and America and without that movement there probably wouldn't have been enough support for the war in the North. Then to go on to WWII, military experts believe it was the Civil War that laid the ground work for America's strong armed forces, without which Germany would probably have won.

So without religion we would most likely be living in a world today where slavery was still going on in America and there probably wouldn't be a single Jewish person left in Europe. There's your Utopian world without religion.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Of course the wars caused grief. As I just said it's the statement that they caused more grief than anything else that I'm questioning. More.

Well I’m certainly not interested in debating about how much devastation religion has brought to humanity. It’s quite clear to ‘most’ people. With others, not so much.

For the record, I’m not completely against religion. To me, it’s just a man made dictatorship that’s caused more grief and confusion to humanity than any other single source and if I’m wrong about that, I’m ok with it. It’s merely an opinion and not really worth arguing over.

 

[Pepper]

My mother used to say if it weren't religion it would have been something else humans decided upon.

 

[JeeperDon]

Do you have any statistics to back that up?

Here is a start.

 

[SeaBreeze]

Exactly, religion is a belief, and you can believe anything you want. But no one should be allowed to push their beliefs on others or make laws or rules regarding those beliefs. Which religion and god are you going to worship? there are hundreds of gods and different religions. This is a couple that wants a cake, bake the freaking cake and collect your money. There is absolutely no evidence of God, as Christopher Hitchens said " Religion is poison because it asks us to give up our most precious faculty, which is that of reason, and to believe things without evidence. It then asks us to respect this, which it calls faith" no thank you, keep it to yourself. He also said "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

What does the baker care what anyone does in the privacy of their own home? None of their business. Keep it out of schools, government and public businesses. Don't tell me what to believe. It is so infuriating.

Couldn't agree more, well said.

 

[Jeni]

In many small businesses it is often the owners flair or personal touch that makes a difference.....
if literally ANYONE can do the same thing ........let them make a cake etc.

In a world where all people do not bring their thoughts or beliefs with them as they venture out in workplace ........
What is there.... zero individuality........ maybe all franchises or perhaps government run business?
to makes sure ......no one makes their own guidelines or have any beliefs or thoughts.

I said it before and will say again ..... if service provider does NOT want the business ......go to ANOTHER business down the street, across town whatever.

What happens after FORCING people to " just bake the cake" or create a floral design , website or whatever.
if their focus or heart is not in it ........neither is the quality ..... that may make their product unique or special
THEN there is no end to the blame either........... if cake comes out dry or not perfect ...will it be because they did not want to in the first place........ or just something that does happen......... will every item be scrutinized......... so people can play the victim game ........and try to make anyone they do NOT agree with or believe the same things....... are evil?

It seems like a one way street .... the business owner has no right to express their belief BUT the customer can force their beliefs on others....

 

[Della]

Here is a start.

Once again. Nobody is denying that religion figured in some wars. I was questioning the statement made that religion caused more grief than anything else.

Lets say that someone grieved whenever a man died in a war. Let's pretend that every war in history was caused by religion (I'm sure you like that idea). Then lets say that someone grieved whenever someone died of disease.

Number of people estimated to have died in wars: 150 million to 1 billion
Number of people estimated to have died of smallpox alone: 300-500 million, TB killed 1 billion in the two centuries in was counted. Add in cholera, the black plague and I think you'll find a whole lot more grief than all the wars combined

Maybe my math is off but to me 1billion and 500 million for just two diseases is more than the 1 billion max estimate for wars. no matter how many pictures you have to illustrate them.

More definition = a greater amount of something.

 

[rgp]

Private beliefs and personal business should never co-exist. There would be no functioning businesses if this were the case.

That would be next to impossible to achieve . Your private beliefs are basically your thoughts. As such you cannot just dismiss them.

We are always with our thoughts & beliefs , and business does just fine.

 

[rgp]

Religion is not needed, nor does it need to be practiced. One does not need to be religious to be a decent person.

 

[ohioboy]

It seems to some religion is a root of evil. No, people are a root of evil. Some say, guns do not kill people, people kill people. Well, religion does not cause wars, people cause wars.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

It seems to some religion is a root of evil. No, people are a root of evil. Some say, guns do not kill people, people kill people. Well, religion does not cause wars, people cause wars.

Yes! You are absolutely right. People kill people ‘with guns’ and people ‘kill’ people over ‘religion’ which is practically an oxymoron in itself.

Religion is a profitable business after all and mankind is the greediest animal on earth. Of course the two are going to clash. Why wouldn’t they?

 

[Knight]

Do you have any statistics to back that up?

One war let alone 11 due to religious belief & the death of any human should be more than enough to convince a person that peace & love isn't on the agenda.
Do you discount the grief experienced by the families of all the people that died on 9/11?

According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause.[6] Matthew White's The Great Big Book of Horrible Things gives religion as the primary cause of 11 of the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relig...pedia of,the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.

A long read but informative.

https://medium.com/@justjanani/how-religion-causes-conflict-9c53cdf80471

 

[Knight]

It seems to some religion is a root of evil. No, people are a root of evil. Some say, guns do not kill people, people kill people. Well, religion does not cause wars, people cause wars.

Of course the wars caused grief. As I just said it's the statement that they caused more grief than anything else that I'm questioning. More.

Della how many people that lost loved ones does it take to satisfy your need to count as more?

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Quote
"As I understand the issue it's about a bake shop owner refusal to make a cake based on religious belief.

In 1 John 3 we are told that we are children of God, born of Him. As a mark of God's great love, we are His children.

If that is true

What religion promotes the idea that God rejects his children?"

From my previous post I'll add
Would you consider those that deny something as simple as a cake as a hater based on a religious objection?

I apologize to you for not understanding your previous posts. I’m a bit on the slow side and it’s taken me this long to figure it out.

 

[Della]

One war let alone 11 due to religious belief & the death of any human should be more than enough to convince a person that peace & love isn't on the agenda.
Do you discount the grief experienced by the families of all the people that died on 9/11?

According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause.[6] Matthew White's The Great Big Book of Horrible Things gives religion as the primary cause of 11 of the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#:~:text=According to the Encyclopedia of,the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.

Thanks for finding those stats for me. They're very clear proof that religion does not cause most wars. I'm actually very surprised that religion only accounts for 6.8%. I would have thought quite a bit more.

 

[Della]

Della how many people that lost loved ones does it take to satisfy your need to count as more?

One more than any other reason.

If wars caused 6 billion people to grieve and disease caused 6 billion and one people to grieve, then that refutes the statement that "war has caused more grief than anything else."

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Knight]

One more than any other reason.

If wars caused 6 billion people to grieve and disease caused 6 billion and one people to grieve, then that refutes the statement that "war has caused more grief than anything else."

Why is that so hard to understand?

It's hard to understand because disease as far as I know isn't related to a religious belief. To put it tis way 6 billion people alive & enjoying life as much as they can vs. death due to a war based on a religious belief doesn't compare at all.

I think how people interpret guidance be it from the Quran the Bible or whatever their belief stems from the interpretation varies. That negative not loving thy neighbor variation IMO is the basis for what we see happening like the bake shop citing religious belief as a reason to not make that cake.

 

[s76l42]

It's hard to understand because disease as far as I know isn't related to a religious belief. To put it tis way 6 billion people alive & enjoying life as much as they can vs. death due to a war based on a religious belief doesn't compare at all.

I think how people interpret guidance be it from the Quran the Bible or whatever their belief stems from the interpretation varies. That negative not loving thy neighbor variation IMO is the basis for what we see happening like the bake shop citing religious belief as a reason to not make that cake.

Exactly, this is a cake! bake it, sell it and move on. They are not inviting you to the wedding. I work two jobs and support hundreds of users and never once did I choose not to support someone or fix their problem because of their beliefs or who they choose to love.