Has the Defintion of Poverty changed in the last 50 years ?

hollydolly

hollydolly

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We all know what being really poor or poverty stricken means particularly in thrid world countries ...I'm talking about so called rich western countries here for the purpose of this topic..UK, America, Canada Australia etc.

All of those countries have a perceived and 'real' poor population, those who live on the streets sometimes with children, homeless, lack of food and basic amenities...however my question is this..in those same countries, there are welfare systems to protect those same people to an extent, and also food banks ...so mostly our ''poor people'' do have roofs over their heads, and food in their bellies.

Are the unemployed or young families with all the different benefits they receive from the state really our most poverty stricken?...how about the seniors who are living on meagre pensions..just enough to get by on a daily basis...being careful not to use much heating because they can't afford the bill..or dreading if white goods break down knowing that not only could they not afford to replace it, but the chances of being able to get credit as a senior with no viable or reasonable income precluding them ..


In this country £24k has been bandied around as being the most basic people can comfortably live on...yet there are many who don't have anywhere near this amount yet manage quite successfully by careful budgeting, and others who have much more yet would describe themselves as poor!!

What's your take on it?

Would you describe yourself as poor...ever been poor, I mean really, really on your uppers, not knowing where the next meal is coming from?...do you know anyone now personally .. who is desperately poor and struggling to live on a daily basis?
 

I live in rural Michigan and have for years, when I was younger I knew people who did not really know where there next meal might come from....they had no tv, or drove junk and I mean junk cars ...today I set on the tax board and people come in for tax help, they are poor no doubt about it but they drive a newer car, have cable and internet, cell phone.... but I tell you they live on what looks like nothing (yes we give tax help).......all that said, we live comfortable, but some would say poor, when our children were home we were poor according to all standards, but we had a big garden, wood heat, never went without. are people poorer now, I think the attitude is what has changed, again I live in rural Michigan and have all my life so that is what I know. I know people who live on less then $9,000 dollars a year, eat each day pay for their home (not as nice) no cable, not what ever but are content.
 
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My take on it? It's often more about what people want than what they need. It's about feeling 'excluded' if they don't wear designer lable clothes or have the latest iPhone. This isn't poverty.

As for 'Seniors' - and I am now an 'OAP' with a state pension - I am as I would say, a "Crumbly". However, as a 'Baby Boomer', I grew up in an age of final salary pensions and good savings rates. With careful management of our money, we provided for our family and now can enjoy a comfortable retirement. My generation is possibly one of the last that will have this 'luxury' as we are increasingly expected to look after ourselves in later life. If people don't make adequate provision now, 'poverty' may become a much bigger issue for Seniors in the future.
 

I've never been truly poor on my life. My parents both knew what it meant to be poor..having lived through the Depression. I think they were both good role models for me. My mother went back to school and had very good jobs. My dad left working in a paper plant for a much better Civil Service job and did very well.

i know anyone poor in this country can find help. I see homeless people with cell phones and that just seems crazy. I think retirement will be different in the future since pension plans are gone many places. I agree with Capt. That seniors in the future may truly have a hard time making it.
 
Being "Poor" in N. America, Europe, and Australia is pretty good compared to much of South/Central America, Africa and much of Asia. In the Western world we have become accustomed to "necessities" that would be considered as "luxuries" in much of the world. We have social safety nets that can supply nearly every basic need...including free cell phones....for those who apply/qualify for these benefits. Many of those who are living on the streets either chose to do so, or have mental issues which are not being addressed.
There will probably Always be a portion of the population that are truly poor...due to either unforeseen circumstances/health issues....or just as a result of poor decisions they have made with their lives. I think Western societies are doing just about everything that can be done to keep most of the people supported.
 
If you're poor anyplace on this planet just come to the USA and we will take totally care of you, free of charge.We'll even give you free money/home if you play your cards right.
 
Fortunately there does certainly seem to be at least marginal assistance in the US for the very poor. Then again it can be a regional thing. Some small towns have churches and civic groups to take care of their own. The problem comes in the big cities where there are more people than resources. They're vowing again to improve on the homeless shelters in New York. Rats, roaches, theft, violence...some people opt to sleep on the streets because it's safer than the shelters. Something I would like to see overhauled is mental health outreach. It's like the "Teach a man to fish" analogy. If they had more services and medications available they might get some people living productive lives eventually.

Of course American poverty is nowhere as extreme as say Sudan. In some countries it's not even being poor, there just is no growable food period. Eating dirt can't keep you alive very long.
 
I've been broke but never poor and I think there is a difference. Broke is picking up your pay check with 16 cents in your wallet or eating toast and cream corn for supper but having enough bread to eat as much as you want. Both true stories for me. And I've never felt deprived. In my broke days I also had my parents to help if I really needed something.

I've never known hunger. My mother had. We ate simply and my mother wasn't much of a cook really. I heard a radio program on feeding the poor once or eating on a strict budget. Not one meatless meal was suggested or offered. We often ate meatless meals growing up and I haven't eaten meat for 25 years. It makes me wonder if someone who doesn't eat meat every night may think of themselves as poor.

My mother was not sympathetic or empathetic to hearing about feeding the hungry on thanksgiving etc. She once commented "who ever helped me" I guess as someone who had truly known hunger, most would not be in a position to judge how she felt.

I'm going to be broke if I ever quit my nursing job. But I'm prepared. I hope. My first job out of nursing school I got a kitten from a nursing assitant at work. My precious Chloe who lived to an old age. That woman lived in a one bedroom apartment with her two daughters and didn't even qualify for food stamps because she made too much. I wouldn't mind the tax dollars helping someone like her.
 
Davey, if folks with your perspective had some catastrophe where you were suddenly dependent on " government handouts" you'd realize how little it covers. Free housing??? I think you're referring to Section 8. There are waiting lists for that. If your house burned down right now and you had no family or friends to bail you out...you could get on the list.

Where we live the waiting list for housing vouchers is ten to fifteen years ...hope you have some savings stashed until then. Now you need some groceries. If your house did burn down they can process your case a bit quicker. As long as your proof of income is under the guidelines. If you were living well before the fire, that's the income records they are using.

If you were earning too much then well you're going to have to wait a few weeks there. If you're lucky to might walk a few miles to the food bank in the meantime. But you don't have a kitchen do you? When you finally get your food allowance it will be around $200 a month for one person and $350 for two. Guess your going to be staying out of Trader Joes now.

I have been poor in the past, comfortable now, but I get pissed when people suggest welfare gives all these great goodies.
 
Fur, me too. My favourite, is the assertion by some that "undeserving welfare scammers" have fancy cars, state of the art appliances, and multiple homes. Really?? Oh, and somehow, the inference most of the time, is that they are black. Unbelievable.
 
Yes, I have been poor. As a teenager I fell through the cracks, and lived on the streets of Vancouver BC. I don't recommend it. If not for the kindness of strangers, I would be dead, or worse.
 
Government Definition

hollydolly said:
In this country £24k has been bandied around as being the most basic people can comfortably live on...yet there are many who don't have anywhere near this amount yet manage quite successfully by careful budgeting, and others who have much more yet would describe themselves as poor!!

What's your take on it?

Would you describe yourself as poor...ever been poor, I mean really, really on your uppers, not knowing where the next meal is coming from?...do you know anyone now personally .. who is desperately poor and struggling to live on a daily basis?
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Interesting that the U.S. Government uses about 1/2 that number in annual income, in U.S. Dollars, of course, as the guideline amount defining "poverty level" income. For two people living in the same household, no children, right around $ 25K. I know this because they have classified us just that way. We have had no income tax obligation since 2003, and filed no federal tax returns since then.

We have raised our own food, slaughtered our own animals for meat, but have never asked for, nor received assistance of any kind, with the exception of "sliding fee" medical care before I went on Medicare in 2005. Prior to that, neither of us had any health insurance whatsoever. My wife continued with no coverage until last year when she went on Obamacare, which has proven to be a very daunting bood-doggle, to say the least. Why? She has bounced around uncaring Medicos throughout the experience, whose attitudes have ranged from minor patient interest to "your 30 minutes are up"! For this care, her monthly payment was $97 per month, difference, around $600 per month, being paid by the Feds.

So, for 2016, her "HealthNet" coverage no longer being offered in our County, she switched to another, with her cost at zero. I'll tell about the results as experience with it unfolds. imp
 
The only way anyone on welfare can afford anything above and beyond is employment off the books and/or under the table things like dealing or numbers. Of course then if you get busted they take away your benefits for life. So now you have a record, no welfare and they expect you to survive on the straight and narrow? Delusional thinking there
 
fureverywhere said:
The only way anyone on welfare can afford anything above and beyond is employment off the books and/or under the table things like dealing or numbers. Of course then if you get busted they take away your benefits for life. So now you have a record, no welfare and they expect you to survive on the straight and narrow? Delusional thinking there
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Do you feel then, that hard drugs should be decriminalized and dealt with in some other way? imp
 
I'm not talking about "Hard Drugs"...and besides nobody wakes up one day and says " Wow, yeah I'ma gonna be a dealer now, lots of perks and big money". Unless maybe they're a young teen with the choice of that or McDonalds. Desperation can do weird things to people. If you're say under educated and in the welfare system you might not have too many choices. I don't condone people selling drugs, or stolen merchandise or their bodies for that matter. But I can understand with no other choice.

But the threat of eviction or going hungry...not something the average white, male, senior citizen might fear, I dunno.
 
I got an up close and personal look at the abyss when my niece, age 39, single, with 2 minor children, got sick three years ago. She was diagnosed with terminal colon cancer and of course lost her job, her medical coverage, and soon after that her apartment and her car. I took on the job of getting benefits for her, and believe me, it is not nearly as easy as most people think... It takes forever, takes all kinds of trips hither and thither, TONS of red tape, searching for all kinds of documents, and waiting forever at places. I did some of this at my old job, so I knew pretty much how to go about it, but it's very daunting, to say the least. Even armed with medical records, documents like birth certificates, etc., power of attorney and some knowledge of the system, it can be overwhelming. I found a social worker at the hospital who helped out getting her Social Security Disability and SSI and speeding it up because she was a "terry" (terminal) case. We got her and her children signed up for Medicaid, and got food stamps and some welfare help. Even after you get all your papers submitted, it takes a while to actually receive the benefits. Housing, FORGET IT -- the waiting list is years and years long. It's so long here, they aren't even taking applications any more.

Even with the benefits she got, she could not have lived on it -- she had to move in with her grown son and his family, and all of us helped out.

The widespread myth that people on assistance can live "high on the hog" is just that, a big fat MYTH.

And I don't know where people get the idea that undocumented immigrants can get all that for free -- it just ain't so. Here in my state, you have to be a US citizen to get assistance, and as to medical care, the only care they qualify for is emergency care for life threatening or public health conditions (a disease they might have that they could pass on to the public at large -- like TB, say).
 
Even after you get all your papers submitted, it takes a while to actually receive the benefits. Housing, FORGET IT -- the waiting list is years and years long. It's so long here, they aren't even taking applications any more.

Even with the benefits she got, she could not have lived on it -- she had to move in with her grown son and his family, and all of us helped out.

The widespread myth that people on assistance can live "high on the hog" is just that, a big fat MYTH.

And I don't know where people get the idea that undocumented immigrants can get all that for free -- it just ain't so. Here in my state, you have to be a US citizen to get assistance, and as to medical care, the only care they qualify for is emergency care for life threatening or public health conditions (a disease they might have that they could pass on to the public at large -- like TB, say).
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Yes, people who make all the sweeping statements about easily getting assistance have no clue what they are talking about. :rolleyes: And like you said - HOUSING? Forget it.

Sorry about your niece, Butterfly.



Davey Jones said:
If you're poor anyplace on this planet just come to the USA and we will take totally care of you, free of charge.We'll even give you free money/home if you play your cards right.
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This is not true and it's certainly not amusing.
 
Being poor does suck, but eventually you have to"suck it up". I am 81 years old and for several years have been living on about $12000 a year. I used to describe myself as "nothing and a nobody with nothing "until I started volunteer work with the homeless.........suddenly I was almost ashamed of all I had - a roof over my head (albeit thankfully Section 8), a car (although an old one still chugging along) and warm, dry clothes in my closet.

As regards the homeless, the huge problem is drugs and how they acquire them. Very many of them are young. My own grandchild decided she wanted to live on the streets with all her pals couch surfing where she could. Luckily she met a person who had a home and now they live with his mother and my great grandchild. The other huge problem is mental illness. Even if they are given drugs, they need someone to monitor that they are taking them properly and also they can be sold on the street.

Back to myself, I go to food banks to help out my meagre budget. I had to put aside my pride to do so, but then I saw several older people like myself and did not feel so alone. I never buy new clothes, people give me clothes, (how many clothes does a person need anyway), I never visit the beauty parlor, I cut and dye my own hair. I used to be very envious of anyone who had money and especially those who inherited, but I decided I had to work through that, and I successfully did so, after all, they were born into the right families.

I also decided to stop whining about the lack of money and just be thankful for what little I have, and ........guess what!........I am OK with that now (for the most part). If I need dental work I will just have to join many of my fellow elders with gaps in my teeth and when I get car expenses, the car will have to go too. Meanwhile, I drill myself to live one day at a time, not speculate on the future, it is too frightening because I live alone and wonder what will happen to me if, and when, I get really ill, for I have no long term insurance.

I also remind myself of all the refugees in the world today with nowhere to live, no food for their children, no water, how awful.........that is what being really poor is!! Back to where I live in Santa Cruz, California, the homeless shelter had been closed down due to lack of funds and any one caught feeding the homeless is fined. It is estimated we have five thousand homeless.......where are they tonite when it is freezing cold, where are they when it is raining.

Think of these things if you think you are poor and be so glad and thankful for what you have, because one day you may not even have that. I was a child in England during the second world war and stood in long lines for food rations. There was still food rationing when I was 18, so I suppose that gave me a good grounding in going without. The Dali Llama said "Think not of those who have more than you, but those who have less" Gods blessings to all of you writers and readers.
 
Dear Butterfly: I can relate. I am 81 and very low income. My daughter, aged 49 is in daily agony with fibromylitis (severe nerve pain over the entire body, from which she has suffered for the last 20 years and it is getting increasingly worse. For the last six months she has also suffered from costo condritis (a condition of severe pain which feels as if she is having heart attacks) This condition is brought on by fibromyltis.. She cannot work, nor even function with daily activities. She has been unable to work for almost three years. She has been turned down for disability and has no income whatsoever, just $160 a month foodstamps. Her future looks very bleak. The authorities are turning down other people with really serious health conditions. I am deeply unhappy about her future because I may not be around much longer and I have very little money. She went through several degrading medical examinations and endless paperwork, only to be refused disability! You are right, she is certainly not living "high on the hog", she is barely existing, and in severe pain. The pain medications the doctors suggest make her violently ill and very dizzy, so she just has to live with the pain.
 
I agree that it's nowhere near easy to get any kind of benefits.

As a sort of insight into the American way of thinking ... there's a commercial on TV for life insurance, one of those "ages 50-74" ones. The characters are discussing their insurance needs and the one guy says "Yes, we got just the amount we need for final expenses - funeral costs, credit cards, etc. - $50,000."

Really?

My "final expenses" will be more on the order of a tenth of that - no credit card bills, no car payments, no mortgage, a pauper's grave. The main expenses will be the drugs and booze for my Going Away party. I'll be worth more to my friends dead than alive.
 
joan321 said:
Dear Butterfly: I can relate. I am 81 and very low income. My daughter, aged 49 is in daily agony with fibromylitis (severe nerve pain over the entire body, from which she has suffered for the last 20 years and it is getting increasingly worse. For the last six months she has also suffered from costo condritis (a condition of severe pain which feels as if she is having heart attacks) This condition is brought on by fibromyltis.. She cannot work, nor even function with daily activities. She has been unable to work for almost three years. She has been turned down for disability and has no income whatsoever, just $160 a month foodstamps. Her future looks very bleak. The authorities are turning down other people with really serious health conditions. I am deeply unhappy about her future because I may not be around much longer and I have very little money. She went through several degrading medical examinations and endless paperwork, only to be refused disability! You are right, she is certainly not living "high on the hog", she is barely existing, and in severe pain. The pain medications the doctors suggest make her violently ill and very dizzy, so she just has to live with the pain.
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Most people get turned down the first time. Tell her she should talk to a lawyer who specializes in Social Security Disability. Their fees are controlled by the Social Security Administration and they don't charge anything up front. They don't get a fee from the client unless the client gets benefits and the amount of the fee is controlled and will be paid directly by SSA out of back benefits. It is well worth a second try with a good attorney, if she's got the medical records to back up her claim -- and most certainly worth a consultation with an attorney. Don't give up!
 
Thank you so much for your reply. Cathy does know about those lawyers. She actually went to one who specializes in Social Security Disability and he said she doesn't have much of a chance because fibromyalgia is not a VISIBLE disability and therefore the judge has no idea as to the extent of pain she suffers. She also saw a specialist six months ago and he seemed very sympathetic, but, much to her dismay, submitted a report to the effect that he considered her fit to work. She has not been able to work for three years. I really appreciate your input and advice on not to give up. Thank you so much. Perhaps we can be friends!
 

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