Have you ever met a psychopath or sociopath?

A game of playing the odds

I read an interesting article a few years ago that said it's not at all unusual for high-functioning sociopaths to become business executives and that it's actually a good fit for them. They also gravitate to some medical specialties that don't require ongoing supportive patient contact, like surgeons and anesthesiologists. Certain legal specialties also work well for sociopaths because they don't require much client interface.

Of course no one discusses the revolving door support staff who discover the money they make working with these people will never be worth the emotional toll.



I think I have come across the article you mention whilst carrying out Google searches since starting this thread, to try to learn a little more about the subject, although they suggested psychopaths, not sociopaths might be high achievers in some professions or businesses, whilst having less than statistically expected in the more caring professions particularly.

The numbers they say exist as a proportion of the population is an order of magnitude greater than I'd thought possible, so if it is true approximately one in a hundred is a psychopath, then all of us will have encountered a psychopath in our lives in some capacity or other, and most likely many more of course. The fact we didn't realise it at the time is interesting in itself, though maybe not all that surprising, if we didn't know them very well or have much to do with them, and there wont necessarily be signals we'd be likely to pick up on easily, and probably most of those classified as psychopaths hide many aspects of their character
 

I don't know which category this man fell under but he always was trying to intimidate me. I have even been afraid of him since he died. He beat me up pretty bad once. He was related to someone I knew. I had a terrible fear of him for many many many years. I guess that was his main thing, to scare me real bad. He succeeded. The last time I was persuaded by his daughter to talk to him and talked to him on the phone a few years back I did tell him that I wasn't the scared little girl he used to know any more in a very angry tone. I refused to meet him again. I kept wondering why he kept trying to intimidate me, like it was my fault. Think I am beginning to see it was him and not me.


Nobody does gas lighting like a psychopath. They can tie your psyche in knots. Power is the great game. They are drawn to sensitive, vulnerable, kind people who don’t employ their vicious tactics. It can be a horrible education at the hands of a person with no morality or capacity to feel empathy or true emotions. However, once you recognize the pattern, you can spot the next psychopath, should you meet one.
 
This subject has me intrigued. Would or should we consider that all serial killers are psychopaths?
 

I knew that there was a case here in PA where we had a forensic psychiatrist testify on behalf of the state, so I kept looking through my journal until I found the entry. His name was Dr. Michael Stone from New York who had studied psychopaths and serial killers and also had a documentary on TV named, "Most Evil."

He testified in a case that I had nothing to do with it, other than to aide in guarding the defendant to and from the state prison, which meant that I also had to sit through the trial, which took a few weeks. The case involved an 18 year-old serial killer, which I believe is te youngest serial killer in PA and now sits on death row. He had killed 3 or 4 women in the Allentown area and would have continued killing had he not been caught.

Quite honestly, since I was not involved in the case, I paid very little attention to the testimonies being given by the witnesses, but I remember Dr. Stone when he testified and spoke about serial killers. He actually rated killers on a graduated scale from 1-22. I found his testimony to be very educational and more like sitting in at a lecture during my college years.

I am sure that if anyone is interested, they may be able to Google him and read about his education in the study of psychopaths and serial killers. I have read that he interviewed hundreds of killers, so his research, if available, should be quite interesting.
 
Not sure myself

I have diagnosed others, as of yet, I have escaped said diagnosis. ��


You mean "professionally diagnosed others"?

I'm going to confuse everyone now by saying I'm not sure whether I've had anyone proclaim I'm suffering from either diagnosis, and certainly I have no hard evidence of whether anyone has said such a thing about me or not. However, to remain rather coy I will say I've had people "look at me funny", if you know what I mean :confused: :eek:!

I should take some comfort from the fact every psychometric test I have ever done, through work or whatever, has seemed okay :) .
 
You mean "professionally diagnosed others"?

I'm going to confuse everyone now by saying I'm not sure whether I've had anyone proclaim I'm suffering from either diagnosis, and certainly I have no hard evidence of whether anyone has said such a thing about me or not. However, to remain rather coy I will say I've had people "look at me funny", if you know what I mean :confused: :eek:!

I should take some comfort from the fact every psychometric test I have ever done, through work or whatever, has seemed okay :) .

Yes, I meant a professional diagnosis.
 
I know I can look it up but...........

Yes, I meant a professional diagnosis.


Although there are a lot of details available online nowadays, I wonder if you'd mind outlining further how a professional diagnosis might be made, (and what might prompt such an examination, leading to said diagnosis?)?
 
No but............

Grahamg wrote:
Has anyone on the forum been accused of being a psychopath (or sociopath), or accused someone else of being one?

Smiling Jane wrote:
No. Have you?


I've already given a few hints, and stated I have no proof whether I have even been so accused at all...............but it is just possible, what more can I say?

However, if being in touch with one's feelings, or able to feel empathy goes some way to disproving I'm in any way a psychopath, then I'd say I'm definitely okay on that score (I can be reduced to tears quite easily, especially as I get older and witness events on tv I find emotional, everything from a great horse race, to listening to people/women who somehow move me to tears, though I can't identify them for fear of contravening forum rules).

What other characteristics are there to consider, inability to make friends, not open to discussing problems perhaps, not an out going personality?

Hopefully I'm not doing too bad on those scores either (though you'll have to take my word for it).
 
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More technical info and unfortunately terminology to assimilate here:

[h=2]Narcissist or Psychopath—How Can You Tell?[/h] We hear the terms all the time, but what is the difference?







https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201712/narcissist-or-psychopath-how-can-you-tell

A question I am often asked on social media is: What differentiates the
narcissist from the psychopath? This is a profound question that has many divergent views depending on who you talk to.

As I have written in previous articles, narcissists, in my experience, are noteworthy for their principal trait of overvaluing themselves at the expense of devaluing others. They think of themselves as special, privileged, entitled, and void of flaws—in other words, they give themselves plenty of latitude while giving others little to none. In their mind, they are always right, and the rules don’t really apply to them. They are incapable of admitting mistakes and taking responsibility. If things work, they believe it is thanks to them. If things fail, it’s the fault of others.

Break

Psychopath By Another Name — Predator

Now we come to the psychopath. Here is where definitions and terms get a bit tricky, because there is little agreement between Robert Hare (the premier expert in the world on psychopaths), criminologists, and mental health professionals. Compounding all of this, for the average person seeking to educate themselves or help, the DSM-V (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th revision) and the World Health Organization’s ICD-10 (The International Statistical Classification of Diseases-10th edition) are frankly no road maps to understanding these individuals who habitually live by taking advantage of others physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, or financially—without remorse.

That is why, when I wrote Dangerous Personalities (link is external) with Toni Sciarra Poynter, I avoided using the term psychopath, choosing instead to use the term predator. I felt that for the average person, this term was easier to understand than all the other terms upon which there was little agreement, such as sociopath, psychopath, habitual criminal, or anti-social personality. If the objective is to keep the public safe—and that is certainly mine—far better to have a term that people can understand and can put to use.
In talking to victims of social predation for more than thirty-five years and in doing research for various books, I found that victims don’t care whether the person who held a knife to their throat or who took their life’s savings is a psychopath or a sociopath. The only thing they care about is recognizing what these individuals are like so they can avoid them or deal with them effectively.

Unfortunately, predators have always been with us, in one form or another, and they’ve been called many things. In the Bible, there are more than six hundred entries dealing with “evil.” Past or present, when people speak of someone who is evil or who has done something evil, what they’re generally talking about is social predation. Victimizing others without a conscience defines Cain in the book of Genesis, as well as the serial rapist in any university town today.
Social predators live by taking advantage of others. They come in all varieties, shapes, and forms, from every level of society. Some live lawlessly on the streets, mugging people or worse. Others have respectable jobs where they transact mayhem. They see themselves as unrestrained by rules or laws. Morals and ethics, to them, are mere words. They have little or no regard for others and once more, they will take advantage of them finding exploitable weaknesses or the right opportunity. No matter how safe you think you are, social predators will undermine and get around whatever safety mechanisms you have in place. They lack the ability to be introspective or to restrain themselves from doing harm to society and are quite content violating human rights.
What predators have in common is a gross disregard for the sanctity of others. For them, the most important priority isn’t living according to a higher social standard, but rather not getting caught. The Ted Bundys, Bernard Madoffs, and Jerry Sanduskys of this world are impervious to decency. Human lives are something to prey upon in their own chosen way, and they have absolutely no regrets about what they do. They are evil, yes, but more specifically they predators, and as such, they need a human to take advantage of. Unctuous, beguiling, deceptive, mendacious, amoral, cold, degenerate, Machiavellian, malevolent, sleazy, uncaring, wicked, and unfeeling — that is who they are. They differ from the narcissist in that taking advantage of others is their most prized objective in their life.
 
An "alternative view of mental illness:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15315885


[h=2]The Anti-Psychiatry Movement[/h] It is 55 years since The Myth of Mental Illness. What was that all about?







Posted May 07, 2015


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sideways-view/201505/the-anti-psychiatry-movement


Recently on a long flight I watched One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. The film, made in 1975, was based on a book of that title was written in 1962. It's a classic and still captivating. The book was written at the high point of the anti-psychiatry movement. In 1960 Szasz wrote The Myth of Mental Illness; In 1961 Goffman wrote Asylums and in 1967 Cooper wrote Psychiatry and Anti-Psychiatry. What, I wondered, has happened to that movement?

In many countries those largem imposing, Victorian mental hospitals (Asylums) have been closed. Great efforts have been made to reduce stigma and prejudice concerning mental illness. Further, attempts have been made to increase the Mental Health Literacy of the general public
There have long been those who challenge the power, practices, and pretentions of psychiatrists. Critics, dissidents and reformers have at different times and in different countries made stinging attacks on conventional academic and biological psychiatry. For this reason some have argued that psychiatry is in crisis and fewer and fewer students are choosing it as a speciality.

There have long been accounts from artists and writers as well as patient groups who strongly opposed particular treatments (drugs, electroshock and surgery) for various ‘mental’ diseases. There were famous cases from Nazi Germany and Soviet Russian that illustrated how psychiatry can be used as an oppressive political force. Psychiatrists seem, in some historical situations, to operate as part of the repressive arm of the state. Indeed Radovan Karadžić, known as the butcher of Bosnia, was a psychiatrist.
Anti-psychiatry critics tended to questioned three things: the medicalisation of madness; the existence of mental illness; and the power of psychiatrists to detain and treat certain individuals. Critics saw many state institutions—particularly mental hospitals—distorting and repressing the human spirit and potential in various groups. They were more like prisons than hospitals.

However it was not until the 1960s that the term “Antipsychiatry” came into use. It was a turbulent time when radical ideas opposed established orthodoxy in many areas of social and political life. There were a number of different strands to the various groups that formed together under the umbrella term of ‘anti-psychiatry.' Paradoxically perhaps, the greatest critics were psychiatrists themselves.

Being sane in an insane place

One of the most famous anti-psychiatry studies of all time was done in the early 1970s. Eight ‘normal’ mentally healthy researchers tried to gain admission through diagnosis to a number of American mental hospitals. The only symptom they reported was hearing voices (say things like ‘empty’ and ‘hollow’). Seven were diagnosed as schizophrenic and admitted. Once in the hospital they behaved normally and were ignored when they politely asked for information. They later reported that their diagnostic label of schizophrenia meant they had low status and very little power in the mental hospital.

Then they decided to ‘come clean’ and admit they had no symptoms and felt fine. But it took nearly three weeks before they were discharged often with the diagnosis “schizophrenia in remission." Thus normal, healthy people could easily be diagnosable as abnormal by fooling doctors with well-known symptoms.

But could the reverse happen? The same researchers told psychiatric hospital staff that fake or pseudo-patients pretending to be schizophrenics may try to gain access to their hospital. They then found 19 genuine patients were suspects as frauds by two or more members of staff including a psychiatrist!


The conclusion was that it is not possible to distinguish the sane from the insane in mental hospitals. Though this famous study has received considerable criticism on ethical and experimental grounds it added great impetus to the anti-psychiatry movement. It remains one of the most famous studies in the whole of psychology and psychiatry.
 
The study of the human mind is still in its relative infancy, and people are clever. Any mental health professional does well to remember that any diagnosis they make inevitably says more about them than the client.
 
Interesting you say that............

The study of the human mind is still in its relative infancy, and people are clever. Any mental health professional does well to remember that any diagnosis they make inevitably says more about them than the client.


It is interesting you say that, and I have a story which I'll try to keep short, where a friend of mine said the same thing.

She'd ended up "having her head examined" lets say, by psychiatrists, and the quickest way to explain how she'd arrived at that point in her life, was because she'd been taken off medication she'd been subscribed for stress "overnight" (there was a lot more to it than that but it's sufficient an explanation for our purposes here).

Anyway, when those psychiatrists thought they were giving her their judgement, my friend at the same time gave her judgement on them, and essentially told the psychiatrists it was them who needed help!

I doubt she was being entirely fair on them, as having been taken off the drugs she'd been taking so precipitously, disrupting her health so much, she did bear a grudge against the whole medical profession for the rest of her life (she still went to see them when she was ill though I noticed). However, she had a large intellect, and successfully raised three sons who went on to follow their father into top careers in banking (back in the 1980s when banking was seen as one of the most reputable professions).

"Everybody has problems" was one of her slogans, and something she tried to get me to understand myself, when I was complaining about this or that, and I wasn't alone in calling her my "second mum", and many people went to her with their troubles.
 
Once most of the mental health live-in facilities were closed, local jails became the defacto mental hospitals As a correctional health nurse I was in rather frequent contact with mental illnesses of all kinds - including both psychopaths and psychopaths; however not all psychopaths are in jail. Many are in various public occupations. Also I found another another article comparing the two - which you might find interesting. There is not complete agreement even among various mental health professionals

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyc...0-jobs-that-attract-psychopaths/#2d83666b4d80

So what jobs are most attractive to psychopaths? Here's the list, originally published online by Eric Barker:
1. CEO
2. Lawyer

3. Media (Television/Radio)
4. Salesperson
5. Surgeon
6. Journalist

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference#1

Sociopath vs. Psychopath: What’s the Difference?
By Kara Mayer Robinson
From the WebMD Archives

You may have heard people call someone else a “psychopath” or a “sociopath.” But what do those words really mean?You won’t find the definitions in mental health’s official handbook, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Doctors don’t officially diagnose people as psychopaths or sociopaths. They use a different term instead: antisocial personality disorder.
Most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits. People like this have a poor inner sense of right and wrong. They also can’t seem to understand or share another person’s feelings. But there are some differences, too.
Do They Have a Conscience? A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.
A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.
Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.They’re Not Always Violent
In movies and TV shows, psychopaths and sociopaths are usually the villains who kill or torture innocent people. In real life, some people with antisocial personality disorder can be violent, but most are not. Instead they use manipulation and reckless behavior to get what they want.“At worst, they’re cold, calculating killers,” Kipnis says. Others, he says, are skilled at climbing their way up the corporate ladder, even if they have to hurt someone to get there.
If you recognize some of these traits in a family member or coworker, you may be tempted to think you’re living or working with a psychopath or sociopath. But just because a person is mean or selfish, it doesn’t necessarily mean he has a disorder.
'Cold-Hearted Psychopath, Hot-Headed Sociopath'
It’s not easy to spot a psychopath. They can be intelligent, charming, and good at mimicking emotions. They may pretend to be interested in you, but in reality, they probably don’t care.
“They’re skilled actors whose sole mission is to manipulate people for personal gain,” Tompkins says.
Sociopaths are less able to play along. They make it plain that they’re not interested in anyone but themselves. They often blame others and have excuses for their behavior.
Some experts see sociopaths as “hot-headed.” They act without thinking how others will be affected.
Psychopaths are more “cold-hearted” and calculating. They carefully plot their moves, and use aggression in a planned-out way to get what they want. If they’re after more money or status in the office, for example, they’ll make a plan to take out any barriers that stand in the way, even if it’s another person’s job or reputation.
Brain Differences
Recent research suggests a psychopath’s brain is not like other people’s. It may have physical differences that make it hard for the person to identify with someone else’s distress.
The differences can even change basic body functions. For example, when most people see blood or violence in a movie, their hearts beat faster, their breathing quickens, and their palms get sweaty.
A psychopath has the opposite reaction. He gets calmer. Kipnis says that quality helps psychopaths be fearless and engage in risky behavior.“They don’t fear the consequences of their actions,” he says.

 
Tough job

Once most of the mental health live-in facilities were closed, local jails became the defacto mental hospitals As a correctional health nurse I was in rather frequent contact with mental illnesses of all kinds - including both psychopaths and psychopaths; however not all psychopaths are in jail. Many are in various public occupations. Also I found another another article comparing the two - which you might find interesting. There is not complete agreement even among various mental health professionals


It is a pretty safe bet to say you had a very tough job, and anyone doing the work you describe had to have a strong mind themselves.

I have a school friend who has worked all his career in various mental health institutions, both private and now back in our NHS, and I know very well what a strain his job is and how remarkably well he copes with seemingly impossible people to deal with (sometimes individuals the police have decided need mental health evaluations, but still posing some threat of physical violence).
 


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