Here we go again - another theatre shooting

[WhatInThe]

Whether this shooters were on prescription drugs... or mentally ill is a red herring.. if they didn't have access to guns, they wouldn't have shot people.. period..

Pure what if hypothetical, especially in the US.

And what would happen in the US-hypothetically speaking after access to guns are denied. Are we all going to be holding hands singing in a circle shaking a tambourine in an utopian dream or dystopian nightmare.

 

[BobF]

Knives have other purposes... cutting food, etc.. Cars are meant to carry the population from point A to Point B... Guns have NO purpose other than killing... That argument is plain silly, and also a red herring.

And lots of meats on your table were shot with guns. Chickens and turkeys were decapitated. Some areas the animals were bled to death. I think that bleeding to death to be quite cruel. Maybe we should start a crusade against that act?

How many of all the killings you worry about were done with legally registered and used by the legal owner for killing. I am guessing not many.

 

[QuickSilver]

How does the slaughter of animals for meat compare with the slaughter of humans... for nothing..????

 

[BobF]

You are constantly arguing against guns. Should not be any. How will we eat then? And what would hunters use? You make no sense with your constant argument. And especially as it is in our Constitution about such things. Ready to start the charge against the Constitution? It can be done, but right now your attitude is of the minority, not the majority.

 

[Don M.]

Every one of these mass shootings...from Virginia Tech to now, this Louisiana shooting...seem to have One thing in common. That being that the shooter had a history of mental problems. There are supposed to be laws that prevent the mentally ill from buying/possessing firearms, but it appears that having a law and enforcing that law are two different things.

Care for the mentally ill has been substantially downgraded in recent decades, so if these people are allowed to circulate within normal society, we can only expect these kinds of events to continue happening.

It's very easy to blame "guns" for these tragic events....but a gun still requires a human finger on the trigger.

 

[QuickSilver]

It's very easy to blame "guns" for these tragic events....but a gun still requires a human finger on the trigger.

 

[Shalimar]

With respect, to many of us living in countries with more stringent gun laws, and fewer homicides per capita, it would seem that a dystopian nightmare already exists.

 

[BobF]

Now that is one really stupid message above. Are the mental incompetents to know what all those words mean. How do any more restrictions on guns going to fix things anyway? Most real gun owners do have experience with guns, have some training, some desire to not hurt someone else. But those mental cases brought up above, just don't give a dam at all and are not trained and often are not owners of the guns, just something they wanted.

One thing for sure is your constant crying and complaining is not going to fix anything. Best become the leader of a anti gun group willing to change our Constitution. That will not be an easy job, but at least you would be doing something productive in your mind. All these lies of posts you keep putting up will never do the job you insist being done.

 

[BobF]

With respect, to many of us living in countries with more stringent gun laws, and fewer homicides per capita, it would seem that a dystopian nightmare already exists.

Can you compare the class of people killing others without only counting those with guns? Dead is dead no matter the means.

So much of Canada is pure open country. Much of our problem in the US is the massing of so many folks in the cities we have now. Places like Chicago where we have had warnings of problems and don't go into this or that neighbor hood. We were told to stop well back behind the car ahead at a red light so you can maneuver about and get going if something happened. These warnings came from a policeman. Many of our cities do have bad areas and those with guns in their hands are not trained or registered owners either.

I think governments really love to have no guns in their people. Not sure why as the bad guys would love to come where few are able to shoot back. The US was designed to have armed folks ready to defend and we do have them still in our midst.

And where is this utopia you are missing?

 

[QuickSilver]

Now that is one really stupid message above. Are the mental incompetents to know what all those words mean. How do any more restrictions on guns going to fix things anyway? Most real gun owners do have experience with guns, have some training, some desire to not hurt someone else. But those mental cases brought up above, just don't give a dam at all and are not trained and often are not owners of the guns, just something they wanted.

One thing for sure is your constant crying and complaining is not going to fix anything. Best become the leader of a anti gun group willing to change our Constitution. That will not be an easy job, but at least you would be doing something productive in your mind. All these lies of posts you keep putting up will never do the job you insist being done.

Look..... I told this story before... My SON was SHOT... by a school mate when he was 10.. I have lived this shit BOB.... So don't EVER lecture me.. K?

 

[BobF]

First time I heard that story. Pretty sad but no excuse to lecture the forum about how you hate guns. It should be the motivation for doing something positive and bitching on a forum is not positive nor productive. So stand ready to hear my offers to end your misery by becoming effective rather than just bitching.

You did not say. I hope your son lived through this, and if not, my sympathy goes to you for his loss.

 

[Warrigal]

Bob, I would venture to say that only those for whom this debate has become personal really know the extent of the problem.

As for the Constitution, it is just another law and it can be changed as it has been in the past. It is not Holy Writ and sacrosanct.

The first step in bringing about change it to raise public awareness and when enough people see that change is for the good, then it will happen.
I would rather listen to people like QuickSilver, who like me is a mother, than to the likes of Charleston Heston who, by the time he died, was probably a little bit mad.

People sometimes ask me why I butt in on this debate.

It is always because of the children. I spent yesterday watching three tiny little girls happily dancing at my grand daughters bridal shower. The thought of these little angels being injured in any way is anathema to me, whether it be by random murder, the actions of paedophiles, car accidents or drownings in backyard pools. Because of them I support effective weapons legislation (guns, knives, explosives and poisons), police actions to break up paedophile rings, road traffic patrols and random breath tests and strict regulation of swimming pools.

All of the above measures cannot be 100% effective but they do make a difference. They do save lives and not only the lives of children.

It is a noble thing to die for the Constitution but it is not noble to sacrifice children to uphold one of the afterthoughts.

 

[Jackie22]

You know, Bob, there are people on this forum that see you as lecturing, bitching and stating negative and non-productive mish mash, and speaking of being effective, I hope you will stand ready for my advice to look in the mirror once in a while when you are planning all your enlightening post of the future.

 

[BobF]

Ready for whatever and for people to think the world should stand still for their personal losses is not making sense at all. I did not know what her driver is and little I can do to change that. Still not heard if the child is dead or not. Either way I can do nothing about it for her.

And for the change of the Constitution, it is not going to be easy even when the people gather to say do so. Then they have to get the Congress interested in doing so. Once that change is on paper it must circulate the states until most of them agree and say so. If not enough states say so, it still won't get changed. It appears to be multi step operation on purpose, to avoid rapid and not well thought out changes. The Constitution is now 240 years old and little changed from original. That is good in the minds of many. For me, it is important to not make to many changes to our Constitution. I would hate to be turned into one of those European types of countries. Of course there are those that think Europe is better.

 

[Shalimar]

What is a European type of,country?

 

[Don M.]

now that is one really stupid message above. Are the mental incompetents to know what all those words mean. How do any more restrictions on guns going to fix things anyway? Most real gun owners do have experience with guns, have some training, some desire to not hurt someone else. But those mental cases brought up above, just don't give a dam at all and are not trained and often are not owners of the guns, just something they wanted.

One thing for sure is your constant crying and complaining is not going to fix anything. Best become the leader of a anti gun group willing to change our constitution. That will not be an easy job, but at least you would be doing something productive in your mind. All these lies of posts you keep putting up will never do the job you insist being done.

amen!

 

[Don M.]

With respect, to many of us living in countries with more stringent gun laws, and fewer homicides per capita, it would seem that a dystopian nightmare already exists.

When you look at the statistics about gun violence in America, one thing quickly becomes obvious...Demographics. With the exception of these mass shootings conducted by Lunatics, who should Never be allowed to be in possession of a firearm...the vast majority of gun violence takes place in our inner cities among members of the drug gangs. Anyone who lives in our cities Knows which areas to stay Well Away From.

Passing "blanket" restrictions on guns is certainly Not the answer. Penalizing responsible sportsmen and hunters for the actions of the lunatics and criminals would prove to be counterproductive. If there ever were any major restrictions placed on gun ownership, you can bet that None of the criminals would give up their weapons.

 

[Warrigal]

Could you post those statistics, Don, because I can't find a demographic breakdown comparing cities with rural areas. I can find breakdowns by gender, age, race and ethnicity. While searching around I found this small section of a very long study. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/chapter-5-context/

How do U.S. gun ownership or gun crime compare with those in other nations? Although international data collection suffers from the same problems as gathering information about guns in the U.S., most research agrees that civilians in the United States own more firearms both total and per capita than those in any other nation.
The Small Arms Survey in 2007 found not only that U.S. civilians had more total firearms than any other nation (270 million) but also that the rate of ownership (about 90 firearms for every 100 people) was higher than in other countries. “With less than 5 percent of the world’s population, the United States is home to 35-50 per cent of the world’s civilian-owned guns,” according to the survey, which included estimates for 178 countries.

As for gun crime, research has found that the U.S. has a higher gun homicide and overall homicide rate than most developed nations, although the U.S. does not have the world’s highest rate for either. The U.S. does not outrank other developed nations for overall crime, but crimes with firearms are more likely to occur in the U.S. (Van Dijk, et al., 2007).

The United Nations Global Study on Homicide (UNODC, 2011) estimated that 199,000 homicides, or 42% of the 468,000 worldwide total in 2010, were committed by firearm.

According to U.N. statistics, the U.S. firearm homicide rate and overall homicide rate are higher than those in Canada and in Western European and Scandinavian nations, but lower than those in many Caribbean and Latin American countries for which data are available.

Where does the U.S. rank internationally in terms of gun crime of all types? A report that compared 2003-2004 victimization survey data for 30 countries, including most developed nations, found that the U.S. ranked about average in an overall index of common crimes (Van Dijk et al., 2007).

However, the report placed the U.S. among the top countries for attacks involving firearms. “Mexico, the USA and Northern Ireland stand out with the highest percentages gun-related attacks (16%, 6% and 6% respectively).” The U.S. had the highest share of sexual assault involving guns.

I suppose Americans can find comfort in knowing that Mexico is worse.

 

[Don M.]

Could you post those statistics, Don, because I can't find a demographic breakdown comparing cities with rural areas. I can find breakdowns by gender, age, race and ethnicity. While searching around I found this small section of a very long study. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/chapter-5-context/



I suppose you can find comfort in knowing that Mexico is worse.

If you found the statistics showing the breakdowns by gender, race, etc., you probably have a pretty good picture of where most of the gun violence lies in the US. I don't recall ever seeing a breakdown by Urban/ rural. I know that in our area, the Only murder that has taken place within 30 miles occurred about 5 years ago...some woman shot her abusive husband. I think the judge/jury ruled it justifiable, and gave her probation. I check the Internet news in Kansas City, and watch the TV news from Columbia, MO., and hardly a day goes by in those cities that doesn't have a shooting incident....and the suspect description in 4 out 5 five of those events is usually a young Black male.

Here, our county weekly police report generally consists of a couple of DUI arrests, a traffic accident, a petty theft, or two, and some neighbor filing a report of a nuisance barking dog. There have been a couple of incidents, over the years, where some A$$hole set up a Meth lab back in the woods, but the local sheriffs dept. quickly found them, and shut them down.

 

[Warrigal]

Don, I'm still sifting studies and they do not all look the same things but I've read enough to challenge your assertion. In absolute numbers cities are where most gun deaths occur but when the figures are looked as on a rate basis (per 100,000) rural areas have their fair share of gun deaths, especially when the suicide rate and accidents are included. It's hard to find studies that are current but this is the sort of conclusions that keep coming up

This one does not include accidental death by firearm. I'm not sure which counties were studied but 3,141 counties must include urban counties with some big cities in them

Abstract

Objectives. We analyzed urban–rural differences in intentional firearm death.

Methods. We analyzed 584,629 deaths from 1989 to 1999 assigned to 3141 US counties, using negative binomial regressions and an 11-category urban–rural variable.

Results. The most urban counties had 1.03 (95% confidence interval [CI]=0.87, 1.20) times the adjusted firearm death rate of the most rural counties. The most rural counties experienced 1.54 (95% CI=1.29, 1.83) times the adjusted firearm suicide rate of the most urban. The most urban counties experienced 1.90 (95% CI=1.50, 2.40) times the adjusted firearm homicide rate of the most rural. Similar opposing trends were not found for nonfirearm suicide or homicide.

Conclusions. Firearm suicide in rural counties is as important a public health problem as firearm homicide in urban counties. Policymakers should become aware that intentional firearm deaths affect all types of communities in the United Statesate by state

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448529/

From another study, there is quite a bit of variation state by state. For example this graph shows that rural Tennessee is much safer than urban Tennessee but rural and urban Washington are much closer with respect to gun deaths. These graphs do include accidental as well as intentional deaths. However, it only considers hand guns deaths. Once long guns are included there could be a very different result.



http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/405837_4

 

[BobF]

That is all well and good about gun stats. Now go back into all those countries and check on deaths by whatever means done violently. Knives kill, so do beatings, how about gang efforts, ropes, pushed off buildings or cliffs, on and on. It is not just about guns when trying to compare violent deaths. Problem would be that not all countries even keep good data and even better data countries don't count the same way. Violent dead by any way is still dead, but when intent is included the numbers will change. In countries where guns are not available gun death will naturally drop but that does not tell the whole story about violent deaths, anywhere. Counting gun deaths only is just a biased way for some folks to push their idea.

 

[BobF]

What is a European type of,country?

To me, that is just the way European history has run, and is running today. Sudden changes from one way to another by military force. Right now there is a change where Russia is helping some folks change from Romania? to Russia. No war but plenty of Russian military involved. It seems to be no standstill among the European countries. They have recently made an effort with the European Union. But even now there are weaknesses in how it goes from day to day.

http://www.viralforest.com/watch-1000-years-european-borders-change/

 

[Warrigal]

Here you go Bob. A detailed report on all homicides, not counting war casualties and suicides. It includes all kinds of weapons and methods of killing.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Dig in.

Here is a graphic that summarises the situation.

 

[SifuPhil]

Canada, GB and Australia are SO pale ...

 

[Don M.]

Don, I'm still sifting studies and they do not all look the same things but I've read enough to challenge your assertion. In absolute numbers cities are where most gun deaths occur but when the figures are looked as on a rate basis (per 100,000) rural areas have their fair share of gun deaths, especially when the suicide rate and accidents are included. It's hard to find studies that are current but this is the sort of conclusions that keep coming up

This one does not include accidental death by firearm. I'm not sure which counties were studied but 3,141 counties must include urban counties with some big cities in them

These reports, and statistics...like most I've seen...are full of "If's, And's, or But's. Most statistical reports on this subject seem to be inconclusive, and like most statistics, are biased towards the authors personal viewpoints. In rural areas, among the White populations, suicides and accidents are probably the leading causes of gun related deaths...as opposed to the criminal activities that account for most of the city incidents. On balance, those in rural areas, are far less likely to be the victims of criminal gun related events.

Insofar as suicides are concerned, I think our society is Long Overdue to enact laws allowing "Death with Dignity". I recently saw what can happen to a person when they have given up on life. One of our elderly neighbors has had ongoing health issues for years....Bi Polar Disorder, multiple strokes, Diabetes, etc., and has lost much of his brain function. He longs to depart this world. A couple of weeks ago, he hobbled out to his garage, and slit his wrists. His wife checked on him, and found him bleeding badly. She quickly called a neighbor, who was able to apply some bandages, and they called an ambulance. He is now lying in a hospital, with little hope for any good prospects. It is so sad when people become so despondent that they feel the need to hold a pistol to their chin, or swallow a bottle of toxic pills....but that is the way our society forces them to act.

Gun deaths are, and always will be, part of our environment in the U.S. The Only way to reduce these numbers would be to find some way to remove firearms from the criminals and mentally disturbed. Good luck on that...the dozens of laws on the books have done little, so far, to achieve such goals.