How do we feel about legal assisted suicide

Now that abortion has entered the subject, I'll clarify my feeling on it. I believe a woman has every right to terminate a first trimester pregnancy ( later if it endangers the mothers life or there is another medical reason). I am not bound by religion to feel differently. Religion binds in so many anti-human ways. Catholics used to go to "hell" for a divorce whether they were the petitioner or not. I don't know if that's still part of their dogma or not. I had a cousin who died at birth, had "original sin" and could not be buried in the family plot in a catholic cemetery. My point is religion is at the base of so many social issues that it confuses the rational thought process of many.
 

there's a lot wrong with religion, and I already agree that there are times when abortion is necessary. I also believe there is a lot wrong with the "opposite" ways of "believing" or "non-religion" It's for each man and woman to decide and live with. I won't argue because if I believe in something, I know it doesn't make it truth. Simply going to express my opinion. My opinions can change when I read others thoughts/opinions. I appreciate the way you stated yours, not rude, condescending, or judgmental.

PS I love that signature photo.
 
pchrise said:
How does this fit in with pain management, does that change things? and does all types of terminal illness count?
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Canada's Supreme Court just eliminated the ban on assisted suicide or I prefer, assisted dying laws here and now our government is going to have to come up with legislation that will match our courts decision.

I think that for some people, palliative care (pain management) is appropriate and our country should be making more efforts to provide that option and making it readily accessible across the provinces. However, there are some disease processes I've heard (and QS or any other doctor/nurse here could verify this) where pain management is extremely difficult to insure and so some folks do suffer horribly at the end. Assisted dying is the answer to their plight and should be an option that is available to everyone who is able to make that decision. Or in the case of Alzheimers, where the prognosis is the same for everyone, we should be able to decide just how we exit. Of course some folks will chose one and some will chose the other but we need to have the option don't you think?
 
Butterfly said:
Having just watched a relative die from cancer and who, of course, had to ride it out till the bitter end, and it WAS an awful end, I am even more in favor of assisted dying (in her case, the "wood was already alight" for quite a while and there was zero hope). She not only lost her life to the cancer, she lost her dignity, her privacy, her great grace and her pride. Had she been able to choose to leave before the last ravages, I'm sure she would have done so.

And as to "suicide" -- I do not believe you could have called suicide in a case like hers -- it was the cancer that killed her, whether she bore it till the end or whether she had had a merciful end to her suffering.

Some may believe there is some sort of beauty or grace or some kind of redemption in great suffering -- I wonder how many of those who believe that have truly watched it happen. In Karin's case, there was no beauty, no grace, nothing but seemingly endless pain and humiliation for her as she screamed and choked and gasped her way to the end. And yes she had good hospice care and pain meds, but they didn't take it all away. (I am not faulting the hospice care -- they did all they were allowed to do.)

We end our pets' suffering humanely -- why can't we apply that same humanity to ourselves?
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Sounds like a terrible end for your relative and it must have been awful to for you and everyone else to go through with her. Sure sorry it was like that for her. Your last sentence, my thoughts exactly.
 
Thank you Debby. She was my niece and was barely 41 when she died. By the time they discovered her cancer, it had already spread everywhere and it was too late. I've seen others die, but her death really rattled me. I wish she could have been spared the bitter end -- particularly her last two weeks.
 
Well, I had to raise the abortion issue, but I realize how totally different that is. Also, with abortion, I think of the child's rights, who is there to protect their rights. But there's the argument of when does life start.

But with this, I do believe a person has the right to manage their own body, just as I am into doctoring myself because the "doctors" have failed miserably. I'm going to die just like everyone else, but I have a right to alternative remedies for instance, but my insurance doesn't think so. I'm saying that if someone wants to die they should be able to do that. I don't know that I could stand by and watch someone suffer, and turn them down if they asked me to help them in that way:( It's such a horrible situation, unimaginable for me, I watched my mom die of emphysema, but it seemed so peaceful. Every situation is different I suppose:(

I still go with Dame though because as laws are changed, new lifestyles, just things that would never be accepted, are acceptable, I get concerned about what exactly the future holds. There is nothing new in that. Things change, that's the only thing certain.
 
A point that seems to be ignored in all of this is the emotional fallout. Women who suffer a miscarriage or still birth carry that pain for the rest of their lives, even though their babies never drew breath. So do women who, for the sake of their child's future, surrendered their babies for adoption. The emotional pain of an abortion, though suppressed, is also long lasting. This is the reason why, while I agree that abortion should be legal, I said that I hope that none of mine should ever have to contemplate one.

Similarly with assisted suicide. When someone ends their life voluntarily, as is suicide, there is enormous impact on surviving relatives, especially the children. It predisposes the next generation to ending their own lives when things get rough. My husband attempted suicide once while depressed but survived. Both of our children were deeply shocked and our son was also close to suicide after his marriage broke down. Fortunately both are happy and well today.

Assisted suicide, where someone provides the means to end life to a terminally ill patient, can go wrong. We had a brief moment when it was legal in the Northern Territory and people flocked there to die. One high profile case turned out to be a misdiagnosis. The autopsy revealed that she did not have cancer at all. Her condition was treatable.

My own mother, aged 91 and suffering from a form of dementia, simply decided one day that she would not eat or drink any more. She was not depressed. In fact she was quite elated; singing and energised. At that time I had the responsibility of giving instructions to the nursing staff about how to handle the situation. I had to put it in writing. I wrote that she was to be offered food but not force fed. I also instructed that should she suffer a heart attack or stroke she was not to be resuscitated. In effect, I signed her death warrant and over the following week she slowly faded away. I sat with her for most of that week and everyone who cared about her came to the bedside to say goodbye. My daughter, who is a nurse, made sure that she had the best palliative care available and she did not suffer at all. She simply shrank before our eyes. Her death was peaceful.

The impact of what I had done hit me between the eyes when I received her death certificate. Cause of death - "dementia, dehydration". It was the dehydration that stabbed at my heart even though I knew that I had done what I thought was the best for her.

I don't regard my mother's case as either euthanasia or assisted suicide. To me it was a case of letting nature take its course at the end of a long life, in much the same sense that turning off life support for someone who is brain dead is not euthanasia. However, both situations take their toll on the person making the decision. Voluntary euthanasia and assisted suicide leave scars too. Before deciding that this is what you want, ask yourselves who is going to be damaged by that decision.
 
I still say there is a HUGE difference between "suicide" and assistance in dying when one is suffering from a terminal illness and looks forward to a godawful death.

Dame Warrigal, you did the right thing in allowing your mother to pass as she wanted to. What would you or she have gained if she had been forced to go on as she was when she did not want to?? She was at the end and she knew it and had chosen her own path. You would never had agreed to what she wanted if she had not suggested it.

My own mother (whom I still miss to this day) years ago decided to stop chemotherapy and had a DNR order entered in her file. I certainly didn't oppose her decision -- it was hers to make. With palliative care, she ultimately died peacefully. Perhaps continued treatment could have won her a bit more time, but she was interested in quality rather than quantity of life. She made her own decision for herself, as did your mother. I'm glad you had the courage to abide by your mother's wishes. You didn't sign her death warrant, the disease did that, and your mother chose her own way out.
 
Butterfly, I endorse your decisions and am glad to hear that your mother died peacefully. My husband and I have discussed at what point we would refuse chemo should either of us develop cancer. I would prefer palliative care and a better sense of well being than chase a small extension of time via chemo that is not working.

She was at the end and she knew it and had chosen her own path. You would never had agreed to what she wanted if she had not suggested it.
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It wasn't that simple, Butterfly. Mum had dementia and had practically given up talking. She was not particularly unwell but after a fall when she broke her leg, she refused to walk any more, although she was able to stand. When she decided to stop eating she did not voice her decision in any coherent way. I was called to the home because she was behaving strangely. She was singing exultantly like some crazy opera diva and waving her hands about. Mum did not sing, could not sing.

When she saw me she made direct eye contact and said "No more," several times while making a gesture with her hands. one hand on top of the other while making firm downwards motions. Then she resumed singing.

Intuitively I sensed that she was saying that she was willing to go, even eager to go. She had always believed that the beloved dead arrive to escort you from life to something else and I felt that she had had some kind of vision that excited her. In spite of her dementia she was not prone to hallucinations up to that point.

So, what do you do about a demented old lady who is acting crazy, possibly halucinating and refusing food? She had never talked about death much except to say that she didn't want to know that she was dying when the time came. Mum was feisty and I knew that she would fight any efforts at force feeding which is why I forbad it. I did ask that she continue to be offered food and drink but all she would accept was a few sips of water with honey and lemon to freshen her mouth. Once I tried to trick her with a spoonful of soup but she rejected it immediately and I again got the "no more" instruction and the hand gesture, which confirmed to me that I had interpreted it correctly at the outset.

I know that I did the right thing and I certainly didn't do it without talking to my sister and other family members. We were all in agreement.

That situation is very different to this hypothetical one - When Mum broke her leg she was unable to have it fixed for nine days because she was on blood thinning medication. Nine days in hospital for an old woman with dementia and a broken leg is very hard. Had someone suggested to me that the best course of action was to give her morphine and allow her to die, with or without something to accelerate the process, would I have been justified in consenting? I think not, yet I do fear this as a logical extension of voluntary euthanasia. Once the most extreme pain is eliminated, why not progress to removing current but lesser pain and then possible future pain in the very elderly?

Mum was always pretty stoic but some other old ladies cried out and wept every time a nurse attended to them. Their cries were hard to listen to but do they really mean that life has become unbearable, or just that particular moment ? Is it possible that in the future these decisions will ultimately be decided on economic grounds rather than humanitarian ones? I hope not.
 
My mom was ill with one thing or another for 40 years. Autoimmune disease, cancers, stroke, liver damage due to medication, etc. Very poor quality of life in her last ten years. It amazed doctors that she lived as long as she did and said she had a very strong constitution. She was bedridden her last few years with my dad and a home help taking care of her. I think she just decided it was time to die as she had been keeping herself alive by sheer will for my dad. She died of pneumonia at 71. It was a relief to know she wasn't suffering any more. I doubt she would have considered assisted suicide but I would have understood if she did.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Butterfly, I endorse your decisions and am glad to hear that your mother died peacefully. My husband and I have discussed at what point we would refuse chemo should either o.............Mum was always pretty stoic but some other old ladies cried out and wept every time a nurse attended to them. Their cries were hard to listen to but do they really mean that life has become unbearable, or just that particular moment ? Is it possible that in the future these decisions will ultimately be decided on economic grounds rather than humanitarian ones? I hope not.
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It sounds like your mom made it pretty clear on what she wanted and I'm sorry for your pain as you watched her go. That being said, I think most jurisdictions who have laws that permit assisted dying have numerous hurdles and legalities that must be attended to and foremost among them is that the sick/terminal patient must be able to assent or even take the meds themselves in the drive to prevent abuses. The 'assent' requirement would be for those with the kinds of diseases that might make it impossible for them to actively participate. Like ALS which paralyses and suffocates the sufferer. Then a doctor would need to help, or maybe a loved one who has been taught how to give and injection maybe or help them to drink something.....

I have no doubt that if I was that old and nurses attending to my needs (because I wasn't able to) actually caused me to cry out in pain, that I would rather not have to look forward to the next time they hurt/treated me and would want release. And if in the midst of my pain, I'm thinking about the economic or even 'healing' benefits that would accrue to my family if I were allowed to go, then I think that's okay. I do agree that anyones continued living or their death shouldn't be judged based on finances by anyone else. And that's why they are writing the laws the way they are.
 
I do not believe that anyone else should make the decision for the dying to shorten their life. BUT, if the dying person can competently state their decision, then I do not see the problem with physician assisted dying -- not to be confused with, in my mother's case, refusing further treatment, which is not assisted dying.
 
Butterfly said:
I do not believe that anyone else should make the decision for the dying to shorten their life. BUT, if the dying person can competently state their decision, then I do not see the problem with physician assisted dying -- not to be confused with, in my mother's case, refusing further treatment, which is not assisted dying.
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I can well imagine circumstances where it is entirely appropriate for a family member with medical power of attorney to make the decision that a suffering person should not have to endure life any longer. There is or course the Terri Schiavo sort of circumstances where the patient is essentially brain dead. But consider a case where the patient is conscious but so cognitively impaired as to be unable to comprehend much more than that he or she is in miserable discomfort, I can even consider for myself, telling my son if I'm in serous pain and have no quality of life, you make the decision and don't make me linger. The second example I cited above is certainly not that uncommon. Sure there are cases where the patient is fully rational and understands the situation and can make the decision for themselves, but more often than not and particularly in the case or the elderly the patient doesn't have the intellectual capability anymore. The humane thing then is to do what you think is best. You make the decision for the family dog when the time has come. You should do the same for your spouse. I'm sure this sounds very cavalier and perhaps I am wrong in always assuming entirely humane motives on the part of person with medical power of attorney. Still the patient in many of the situations I visualize is essentially helpless and suffering, I would like to think there was a way to help them.
 
Shipper said:
I have long felt that there should be booths (similar to the old telephone booths) available in every 5 square mile area of a community for the purpose of terminating your life. If you look in the mirror one morning and realize that you are just taking up space on this earth with no particular redeeming value, you should have the right to "off" yourself. You could dial a number and receive a code that was only good for that day (give you time to change your mind); then go to a booth and input the code three separate times correctly (to insure that you were sober), and be electrically cremated. The booth would have some type of vacuum system to remove the ashes and be ready for the next customer. It would be relatively simple to add a money slot to make the booths self-supporting. Seems workable to me-what think you?
:p
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Shipper I feel you have been watching too many movies.
This will never happen as there are too many in this world that would use it even when nothing is wrong or in the state of drugs/alcohol or the aftermath of both. That would bring with it a lot of additional problems should somebody wish to dispose of another.
The same as when a family member wishes to finish the life of a person just to be financially rewarded.
Euthanasia is not only a very personal decision but a very difficult problem to get into law. Not just because religious input, government members, input but all of the associated legal hoops to jump through. It is not a simple thing to do.
 
koala said:
Shipper I feel you have been watching too many movies.
This will never happen as there are too many in this world that would use it even when nothing is wrong or in the state of drugs/alcohol or the aftermath of both. That would bring with it a lot of additional problems should somebody wish to dispose of another.
The same as when a family member wishes to finish the life of a person just to be financially rewarded.
Euthanasia is not only a very personal decision but a very difficult problem to get into law. Not just because religious input, government members, input but all of the associated legal hoops to jump through. It is not a simple thing to do.
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I know you're right about the legal hoops to jump through, however, I've been led to believe that these strictures are not quite so binding in the case of elderly patients.
 
Josiah said:
I can well imagine circumstances where it is entirely appropriate for a family member with medical power of attorney to make the decision that a suffering person should not have to endure life any longer. There is or course the Terri Schiavo sort of circumstances where the patient is essentially brain dead. But consider a case where the patient is conscious but so cognitively impaired as to be unable to comprehend much more than that he or she is in miserable discomfort, I can even consider for myself, telling my son if I'm in serous pain and have no quality of life, you make the decision and don't make me linger. The second example I cited above is certainly not that uncommon. Sure there are cases where the patient is fully rational and understands the situation and can make the decision for themselves, but more often than not and particularly in the case or the elderly the patient doesn't have the intellectual capability anymore. The humane thing then is to do what you think is best. You make the decision for the family dog when the time has come. You should do the same for your spouse. I'm sure this sounds very cavalier and perhaps I am wrong in always assuming entirely humane motives on the part of person with medical power of attorney. Still the patient in many of the situations I visualize is essentially helpless and suffering, I would like to think there was a way to help them.
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Many times this is unfortunately true. STILL, I believe allowing others to make the decision foro the dying person can lead to the so-called "slippery slope" of getting rid of an unwanted family member for whatever nefarious reason ("let's off grandpa before he can change his Will"). I DO, however believe, that a competent adult should be allowed to give the right to decide over to a specific family member or friend or physician in advance, via a formal legal instrument duly witnessed, notarized, etc. ( the same way a Will or a Medical Power of Attorney is handled) so that when the time comes that the person is in extremis and no longer competent the designated person could make the decision.
 
Josiah said:
I know you're right about the legal hoops to jump through, however, I've been led to believe that these strictures are not quite so binding in the case of elderly patients.
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At least here, the situation is no different, regardless whether a person is young or old, which is as it should be.

As I said above, I think a person should be able to convey their right to decide to another person, BEFORE they become incompetent. I would like to be able to allow my son to decide, along with my physicians, that it was time to mercifully let me go.

In my state, however, we don't yet have the right to make that decision even for ourselves, but it's in the works. We have a case on appeal that would strike down our law against assisted dying.
 
Butterfly said:
Many times this is unfortunately true. STILL, I believe allowing others to make the decision foro the dying person can lead to the so-called "slippery slope" of getting rid of an unwanted family member for whatever nefarious reason ("let's off grandpa before he can change his Will"). I DO, however believe, that a competent adult should be allowed to give the right to decide over to a specific family member or friend or physician in advance, via a formal legal instrument duly witnessed, notarized, etc. ( the same way a Will or a Medical Power of Attorney is handled) so that when the time comes that the person is in extremis and no longer competent the designated person could make the decision.
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You are certainly right about slippery slope situations and nefarious relatives with less than humane motives. I'm quite naive coming from a very small, but trustworthy family. As you may know my personal situation includes caring about and caring for my wife who suffers from severe cognitive impairment and has been in a skilled nursing facility for nearly a year now. Fortunately she does not suffer unduly either physically or emotionally but should this situation change significantly I would be faced with interpreting her advance directives.
 
Josiah said:
I have actively supported death with dignity advocacy groups for more than 25 years. I have a copy of Derek Humphry's book Final Exit (with recent updates) on my bookshelf. Ironically my wife who also supported the idea of assisted suicide can no longer be a candidate because she is no longer able to make anything approaching a rational judgement about herself. Assisted suicide is very problematical for many older seniors because even minor senility precludes the strict criterion for informed judgement that Oregon and other states that permit assisted suicide rightly demand.
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We were "fortunate" Josiah. My wife was on dialysis when her condition became hopeless. She had dementia by then but had an advanced directive. All we had to do was agree to stop dialysis. She passed easily and without knowing within a few days.
We should all have that right, as well as to make the decision for others if they have left us a directive to do so.
The hallmark of the torturer is to prolong the agonies of dying for as long as possible. We are horrified when we hear stories about those people. Yet we force our physicians into the role as they try to maintain life in the pain racked bodies of patients
beyond hope. Its not right!
 
I'm looking at all of the opinions on here, and thinking of all of the people I have talked to on the subject. With the exception of one relative who objected for religious reasons, they all agree that we should be in control of our own death. So why can't we get the law changed? I don't get it. Now that my wife has passed, I would be delighted to have a button that I could push when ready. I also don't understand why it has to be such an elaborate procedure. Every time we have an operation they put us out with anesthesia. Totally painless. Why can't they just give us enough more to send us on our way?
 
Underock1 said:
I'm looking at all of the opinions on here, and thinking of all of the people I have talked to on the subject. With the exception of one relative who objected for religious reasons, they all agree that we should be in control of our own death. So why can't we get the law changed? I don't get it. Now that my wife has passed, I would be delighted to have a button that I could push when ready. I also don't understand why it has to be such an elaborate procedure. Every time we have an operation they put us out with anesthesia. Totally painless. Why can't they just give us enough more to send us on our way?
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Simple............Because there are more against than fore
 
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