If you know god, then what?

Paco Dennis said:
Good friends, people who know about the issues, and a trust in myself that I will do everything I can to move on. One day, that won't be possible, like it has happened to those who were here before us. You want me to feel doubt and fear because I don't believe a biblical God. Correct me if I am wrong, but you being a hot Christian, u include God in everything, good for you. That makes me very happy.

There should be a rule on SF...no preaching. :)
Click to expand...
I'm sure that most people are capable of switching off from posts that they find irritating. And there is still a hide button?
 

bobcat said:
I guess the hard part to understand would be this:

If Hell means just being dead, and if you're already dead, then why resurrect someone only to let them die after judgment.
If Hell means a fiery death, then you have already done that if you're cremated, so why repeat it.
If Hell means an eternal torment, what would be the point. There is nothing to be gained from tormenting people forever.
If Hell means an eternal separation from God, then dead sinners already have that.
So, as you can see, it gets a bit confusing.
Click to expand...
My suggestion would be to dig a bit deeper and try to understand the medieval mind, or if you can, the pre-Roman mind.

I found Genesis 1 made more sense to me when I was asked to read it and then think why the writer described a three tiered universe and the relationship humanity has with the natural world. The question was actually, "What is the viewpoint of the storyteller in Ch 1?" Obviously, thought I, he is standing on a mountaintop, looking at the sky above, the landscape before him, and thinking about the living creatures that inhabit the land, the sea and the sky.

He thought about it and realised that it was all good, and that mankind is a part all of it. Genesis 1 probably wasn't written down until the exile in Babylon. Before that it was passed from generation to generation orally and the structure of the text strongly suggests that to be true.

Our Australian indigenous culture passed on secret and sacred knowledge just this way. They did this by the campfire at night, through cave art and rock carvings and songs. They performed ceremonies of celebration for the gifts of creation and some stories were secret from certain members of the tribe. There was women's business and separately, men's business, that no boy could learn until after his initiation into manhood. Women who spied on men's business ceremonies could be killed.

As a young teen, I was horrified by the brutality of the account of the Hebrew attack on Jerricho. My 20th century sense of justice could not cope with the killing of one of the Hebrew soldiers for keeping for himself some of the spoils of the battle. It wasn't his killing that stirred me up - it was that they killed his wife and children as well! I could not believe that God would ask for that, and if God did, I most certainly did not like God.

I was really much too young to understand how such stories were fashioned in ancient civilisations, and for what purpose. Wisdom only comes much later in life when we have acquired broader knowledge of history and humanity and take the time to think about the more esoterical matters. That process is never over until we draw our last breath.
 
Warrigal said:
My suggestion would be to dig a bit deeper and try to understand the medieval mind, or if you can, the pre-Roman mind.

I found Genesis 1 made more sense to me when I was asked to read it and then think why the writer described a three tiered universe and the relationship humanity has with the natural world. The question was actually, "What is the viewpoint of the storyteller in Ch 1?" Obviously, thought I, he is standing on a mountaintop, looking at the sky above, the landscape before him, and thinking about the living creatures that inhabit the land, the sea and the sky.

He thought about it and realised that it was all good, and that mankind is a part all of it. Genesis 1 probably wasn't written down until the exile in Babylon. Before that it was passed from generation to generation orally and the structure of the text strongly suggests that to be true.

Our Australian indigenous culture passed on secret and sacred knowledge just this way. They did this by the campfire at night, through cave art and rock carvings and songs. They performed ceremonies of celebration for the gifts of creation and some stories were secret from certain members of the tribe. There was women's business and separately, men's business, that no boy could learn until after his initiation into manhood. Women who spied on men's business ceremonies could be killed.

As a young teen, I was horrified by the brutality of the account of the Hebrew attack on Jerricho. My 20th century sense of justice could not cope with the killing of one of the Hebrew soldiers for keeping for himself some of the spoils of the battle. It wasn't his killing that stirred me up - it was that they killed his wife and children as well! I could not believe that God would ask for that, and if God did, I most certainly did not like God.

I was really much too young to understand how such stories were fashioned in ancient civilisations, and for what purpose. Wisdom only comes much later in life when we have acquired broader knowledge of history and humanity and take the time to think about the more esoterical matters. That process is never over until we draw our last breath.
Click to expand...
Just my opinion here, but due to the common motifs and parallels to earlier creation stories, it seems likely to me that the Biblical account of creation was assimilated and tweaked a bit to fit the monotheistic beliefs of the early Israelite storytellers. The similarities suggest an acquired account rather than an actual one.

I think you are correct about the writing being done during the Babylonian exile, and there were likely some overlapping of cultural and historical perspectives and beliefs. I imagine this was a common occurrence throughout ancient history.
 
This morning one of those little short things that pop up on YouTube was Cheryl Crow saying she grew up going to the Church of Christ and now she refuses to believe that God is evil and anyone who doesn't belong to that church is going to Hell. It took me back to my short year at a Church of Christ college where I had been assured that you didn't have to be a member of that church to go there, but was given nothing but "D" grades all the time I attended, even for joint projects with other students who got "A's" for the same project.

The kids were taught that everyone who went to a state college were wild drug addicts who were going straight to Hell. Since they knew I was a Presbyterian who had attended a state college, the girls all thought it was safe to come to my room to talk about what they were doing with their boyfriends. I honestly believe I was the only virgin in that school.

Cheryl Crow's experience and that of so many of you on this thread who were taught similar things, makes me so sad. I think more people were turned away from Christianity by fundamentalist churches than by atheists.

One of the best books I ever read was a 1997 book called "Stealing Jesus," about how the legalistic fundamentalists have made so many people imagine a harsh, unloving God, when Jesus was all about love and forgiveness.

https://www.amazon.com/Stealing-Jesus-Fundamentalism-Betrays-Christianity/dp/0517706822
 
Last edited:
Paco Dennis said:
Since no one really knows, if we act like we know, or we have accepted an explanation from without, it is wasted energy. We only find life while living within it.

Experiencing life does not need knowing a beginning or end.
Click to expand...
ahhhh but it does! Everything you do or experience gets compared to your previous experiences. Your beginning onward.
Knight said:
This explains better than I could.

what is the universe - Bing

As for my existence. Hopefully like me, you had a father & mother that planned for you being here.
Click to expand...
they didn't. your next question?
 
I am responding to all the comments from yours above. You all quote other human beings, other creations. You quote their wisdom, insight and the comfort that their comments have on your life. You quote their experience, their understanding of your life experience. You connect because they know how you feel.
Doesn't mean they are right. Doesn't mean that they know more than you. They just present a more confirming answer up on stage.
Read back on all the comments and messages. Read them all.
Bottom line is that knowing God is not a matter of you make the determination that he exists. He doesn't exist in your mine, then leave the post.
If you believe that he does, that there is some doubt in your mind, then read on.
There are so many authorities out there. So many wise, reputable, known figures out there that can answer your questions. Can calm your fears. Yet they do not know anything more then you/ Think about it. God speaks to you. Not thru someone else. Call to him in prayer.
 
rbtvgo said:
Not thru someone else. Call to him in prayer.
Click to expand...
When I was a child my brothers & me went to Sunday school. We heard the bible stories & had the proper fear that goes along with what we were taught to believe. We said the well known prayer beginning with " Now I lay me down to sleep" & the prayer always ended with us saying Please God make daddy's eyes better. Never did.

Then as I got older I'd hear people I knew personally pray for something to help others. Those prayers were never answered. Then I began to question the bible stories couldn't get an answer that made sense.

Maybe you can give me a reasonable explanation of where exactly this sentient being at least 13 billion years old lives. And how did he come into existence?
 
Last edited:
Is it true the Jews got us into the christianized God ?? and where has that got us now - in religious decline on the christian side? this could just be a deep religious conspiracy heh?? perhaps old DT could help us out - seems to be doin well atm??
 
Knight said:
When I was a child my brothers & me went to Sunday school. We heard the bible stories & had the proper fear that goes along with what we were taught to believe. We said the well known prayer beginning with " Now I lay me down to sleep" & the prayer always ended with us saying Please God make daddy's eyes better. Never did.

Then as I got older I'd here people I knew personally pray for something to help others. Those prayers were never answered. Then I began to question the bible stories couldn't get an answer that made sense.

Maybe you can give me a reasonable explanation of where exactly this sentient being at least 13 billion years old lives. And how did he come into existence?
Click to expand...
Knight, people will tell you that this 'God' always was. To me that sounds absurd. Like you I was made to go to Sunday school and say the Lord's prayer at bed time. It was just words. I have no proof one way or other about the existence of a 'God', but my own view is that 'God' is simply an attempt at explaining life, the universe and everything.
 
smiley said:
"WE" once looked at the moon and stars many eons ago and made it all up!!
Click to expand...
Basically, that's what happened, but that is the condensed version. There were some interesting psychological dynamics involved in the process that would be fun to explore. But I don't picture it as malicious as say today's televangelism. I doubt in the beginning there was money to be made by crafting the ideas, because there was no money. But power and personal influence must have played a role.

A fertile environment such as the human need to explain the most puzzling questions in the absence of actual knowledge, opens the door to ideas, and in primitive societies lacking a sufficient knowledge base, and having no organized system to acquire such knowledge, all that is left is creativity and fantasy. The human need for closure provides a platform.

I doubt that all the people making up the answers were charlatans. Some were just having fun thinking stuff up. Just as today's politicians float trial balloons of crazy ideas to see what might stick, memes evolve naturally, and spread throughout the population. People say, "Hey, I like that idea!" And when a significant number of people latch on, it is misjudged as a "knowledge or truth."
 
I think people generally have a bias which guides their conclusions. If there is belief in a deity, then it follows that the godly entity created things in a purposeful way. If one has a more scientific mind, then it follows the breadcrumbs of evidence to the conclusion. If one has a belief in advanced aliens, then they likely had a hand in how we got here.

The mind can be a master at spin doctoring. All it needs is a reason, and it's off to the races. After all these years, it still amazes me how the human mind can make the irrational appear rational. The belief card trumps everything else.
 
So I have a question.

As a believer, does your belief affect how you feel or think about a non-believer?

And as a non-believer, does your conviction affect how you feel or think of a believer?

To address this myself, I was really only confronted with overt religiosity when I loved to the US. So many Americans believe in God, that I was confronted by my own beliefs far more often than I ever was in the UK. I recall going to church for a Christmas ceremony with someone close to me. It was a catholic ceremony, and they all went up for their bread and wine. Me? I remained seated. I was very much the odd one out.

I never thought less of believers, but I did feel apart from them. That no matter what my relationship with them was, I knew my disbelief bothered them, and that it put up a trip wire in our relationship. But while you can adjust and change, you can't invent a belief, so I had no solution.

Still, my reality is that intellectually, I can't fathom a God. When meeting people that do, there's a jarring difference. Of course, this only manifests when the topic, or some related topic, occurs. In every day activities, it's neither here nor there. I'm just one of the mob.

When I think that believers think I'm going to hell - whatever that means to them - I'm curious. Does it affect every interaction with them, or only some?
 
The problem to me seems to be your reliance on what others are telling you. The fact is that you just need to close your eyes and focus on talking to God, yourself. He will respond to you. Forget all the advice, just pray to him and listen.
Simple, so hard. Trust me. Pray and then be quiet. May not come quick, but it will come. The point is that you can talk to God directly. Seems strange but yes, you can talk to him. Might not like what he has to say, but you can talk to him.
 
VaughanJB said:
... So I have a question.

As a believer, does your belief affect how you feel or think about a non-believer?

And as a non-believer, does your conviction affect how you feel or think of a believer?
Click to expand...
There are degrees with many degrees between I suppose.
The tolerant Christian thinks, "Bless your misguided little heart, I want to save you." The fanatic finds you repugnant, an associate of the devil, wants you dead.
The tolerant non-believer thinks a Christian ignorant, a coward, afraid to face death squarely. The fanatic wants you dead --you're destroying all progress with your wars and guns and unscientific beliefs.
It's maybe like the lush and the teetotaler. They don't tolerate each other well.
 
VaughanJB said:
So I have a question.

As a believer, does your belief affect how you feel or think about a non-believer?

And as a non-believer, does your conviction affect how you feel or think of a believer?

To address this myself, I was really only confronted with overt religiosity when I loved to the US. So many Americans believe in God, that I was confronted by my own beliefs far more often than I ever was in the UK. I recall going to church for a Christmas ceremony with someone close to me. It was a catholic ceremony, and they all went up for their bread and wine. Me? I remained seated. I was very much the odd one out.

I never thought less of believers, but I did feel apart from them. That no matter what my relationship with them was, I knew my disbelief bothered them, and that it put up a trip wire in our relationship. But while you can adjust and change, you can't invent a belief, so I had no solution.

Still, my reality is that intellectually, I can't fathom a God. When meeting people that do, there's a jarring difference. Of course, this only manifests when the topic, or some related topic, occurs. In every day activities, it's neither here nor there. I'm just one of the mob.

When I think that believers think I'm going to hell - whatever that means to them - I'm curious. Does it affect every interaction with them, or only some?
Click to expand...
I've been both. As a child I was sent to Sunday school like so many others and attended scripture classes at school. I was basically a generic protestant. Late in my teens I decided that God was a concept of the ancient human mind and became an atheist. I was obsessed with all things scientific.

I had no beef with anyone who professed any form of religious faith but I was convinced that I knew all the answers. In my mid thirties I had what religious folk call a "peak event" and I could no longer resist the call to faith. Been a Christian ever since and now belong to a progressive church community. I have no problem interacting with people of other faiths; Mormons, Muslins, Sheiks, Buddhists or Jewish but I do have some difficulty with rigidly fundamentalist Christians.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top