If you know god, then what?

[VaughanJB]

I re read your message a few times. Valid points.....all. There is so much you say that requires me to think about my own beliefs. I am going to work off your message and try to provide some thoughts that cause me to refute some things that you say. Blind faith has produced any number of results in this world that define explanation. People who defy death and live on. Those who face impossible odds and yet succeed.
Minor things like the "miracle on Ice" when the us team beat the Russians. No explanation other than faith. Blind Faith yes, but much more than strong desires by individual players. I guess what I am saying is that faith without interaction can only go on so long. Then, one tires and feels the futility of no confirmation. My problem with your words is that I, have an interaction with God. Which changes everything. No, not in words. God does not talk to me in words.
He response to me in my prayers. I will question something and he will respond with a question to me that requires me to think and look into his written word. I have never yet found his response to my questions, once searched out, to be incorrect. Do I want to believe, with all my heart, what I hear.................yes! but I doubt so I look up the passages. "No, this is wrong, this isn't God talking". This is my own mind.
Then I search the Bible, do the research and realize that he is correct. My years on this earth have led me to the conclusion that God has my back. I can't explain the horrors that go on everyday in this world. I can't offer any explanation. I search myself.
Yet, I know that he knows, he allows what he does because he is an all knowing God and that I am his creation. He will reveal to me what he wants but he desires me to trust him totally. He is God. Like the universe, he is beyond understanding. Blind Faith??? Like I said he knows me and interacts. so much more to say but this is enough for now.

Story time.

I was living in Houston, TX. I co-wrote some books with a guy. We'd meet occasionally (he lived in Dallas) and often have some long nights having fun, drinking some alcohol, and generally having a good time. He was married, and not at all religious.

Then his wife got pregnant. When she had the child, there were complications. The baby was deathly ill, and he had to spend a lot of time at the hospital watching on. Cutting a long story short - he started praying. I guess it was a gut reaction or something. The child pulled through, and he attributed that to God.

Next time I saw him, he was teetotal. He tried to convert me. He had done a 180. In conversation he had become a fundamentalist. His wife had followed suit. The change was so drastic, we never wrote together again. Communication broke down, suddenly he had become a stranger.

All this to show that I've been around situations that I can't explain. Whether it's legit or not, I don't know. I only know what I think and feel. it's not like I've never thought of these things, I do, and relatively often. But I just can't reach the point you're at. I likely never will. It is what it is. The Bible is a great set of lessons, and I wish more people lived by its word, not because of God, but because of goodness, fairness, and charity. That said, the Old Testament has some heinous things in it - but that's another story.

This is, as displayed by these forums, an ever fascinating topic. I don't think less of believers. I really don't. Religion is a multi-faceted thing. I do think the claim to religiosity is brought into disrepute by people claiming belief, whilst committing heinous acts. But again, that's a whole other story. I must say, I have no intention or desire to dissuade people like yourself. Life is a personal journey, you know?

 

[Dr.Colosso]

I directly responded to a post. I also mentioned that a God is unfalsifiable. But that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it doesn't mean he does exist. On the other, it doesn't means he does. Which side of the fence you fall is up to you. Such a statement renders belief in line with an opinion. Your opinion is either that he does, or does not, exist.

I'm not a religious scholar (by a wide mark). However, the idea that a God would in any way punish someone for not believing just sounds mean. God will have been well aware of the circumstances of ones life, so ought to be able to understand why belief doesn't exist. God has never spoken to me, but the trope seems to be that it must somehow be MY fault. How come? If God proved himself to me, I'd believe. Wouldn't any rationale person? I've simply seen no evidence.

I also don't think the excuses made are reasonable. Free will seems to simply be an excuse believers use to excuse the fact that their God appears mean spirited. If something goes wrong, it can't possibly be God's fault. Must be that whole "free will" thing. Free Will Is a Get out of Jail Free card, imo.

I won't even start with the idea we're all born with the original sin.

All that said - I've no issue with your own belief. I don't think less of you, and I don't think more. I simply think you're entitled to that opinion.

My mom was raised Dutch reformed. Very strict. You may not do anything on sunday. Stuff like that. She met my dad. He believed in God until he was 9 and then he started to think and became an atheist. He would always make jokes about God and about my mom's faith and I thought that was hilarious. My mom had to shut up about God btw. I was not raised christian. I declared myself a proud atheist at 8 lol.

But then happened what I see happen now with youth who were raised atheist. Just like the christian raised kids stood up against their religious parents' beliefs, the ones who were not raised christian stand up in puberty.


Who says that my dad is right. Lets go check it. For a year I asked for signs, saying: If I don't get an 8+ or a 9 (Dutch equivalent of an A) for some school test I don't believe in God. And zjoot I got the 8+. Not once but daily or weekly a year long. Any dumb thing I demanded as a selfish teenager happened. It was just stuff for myself. The teacher not showing up when I was too lazy to study. I hated school.

The last thing was when I was playing tennis and I played lousy and she was way better. If I don't win I don't believe in God. It was 6 3 6 2 for her or so and then I won. All the time I had thought: yeah hm that was just a coincidence, but then after this happening for a whole year I was convinced that God existed and promised Him to go to church, but I never went to church and church was boring.

My brother at the same time saw Jesus while he was Zen meditating. He then went to a bunch of churches: Dutch reformed, catholic, whatever and it was all boring, but one pentecostal church was fun and he took me there. He said that I told him to find one. Can't remember.

Then my mother was afraid we had gone to a cult and she came to check and stayed.

Decades later my dad finally got saved when he heard he had cancer and only a year to live. My mom never irritated him with the Gospel, but then she said: I'll only tell you once. You have to accept Jesus. And he obediently did lol after always being the boss.

My dad, when he was still atheist, their neighbour was sick and he had seen proof first hand that people got healed.

My aunt in Australia had a brain tumor, didn't recognize her kids anymore. He told me, I threw her name in the church prayer bucket, we prayed with church and the next day she called my mom that God had done a miracle. Her other sister got healed from cancer.

He and mom took her to a healing meeting from Jan Zijlstra and she got healed. My FIL got healed from cancer. Instantly gone on the x ray. The doctors said it was a miracle. And dad saw and heard all that. So he went to the neighbour and said: Why don't you go to that healing meeting? We don't believe. No me neither but I saw some great things happen there. He was so sad that they got angry and more or less kicked him out.

I once had a dream about him in which he said: I cannot believe like you and mom. Then I said: Shall I pray for you then that God shows ypu? And then he saw it.

I don't believe God punishes people for not believing. He can show people last minute. I just pray for them and believe that God will show them. There's a Bible text Matthew 25 that if you give food to the poor you gave it to Him. So as long as people are not completely Hitlery evil I just pray and believe God will show em.

 

[smiley]

some of us sasy show me that God exists and then I will believe - others see otherwise? - it's a very emotional thing d n't you think? [ ps I one was a lay preacher!]

 

[Rich]

Isn't that's why God created people so that He could be loved? I think so yes. Her felt yours and you felt his. What could be better?

I can’t help wondering: if God wants to be loved, why make it all hinge on faith? Why stay hidden instead of showing Himself so we could know him and express our gratitude?

 

[Rich]

There are two, and only two, theories to human existence, Evolution and Creationism. If one adheres to evolution, it means that something as medically and scientifically complex as a human being was assembled by what was originally, more or less, bacteria. I can't upon information and belief accept that theory.

There was a lot of talk a few years back about a third, it was labeled "intelligent design." I don't think it caught on all that well but it is a third point of view. It emerged in the early 2000's when W was president. Intelligent Design argues that certain features of life are too complex to have arisen through natural processes alone and therefore must be the product of an intelligent cause. It's seems to try to combine science and theology. It does seem to lean a bit more towards creationism but with a nod to the evolutionists.

 

[Dr.Colosso]

I can’t help wondering: if God wants to be loved, why make it all hinge on faith? Why stay hidden instead of showing Himself so we could know him and express our gratitude?

I think that's the church's fault. When Jesus was on earth He gave proof. He duplicated the bread and fish and He healed everyone. The guy with the sick son, He said: if you people don't see miracles you will by no means believe and then He healed his son and the whole family got saved. Then He taught the disciples. People healed in Peter's shadow. This kept going on until the church leaders said God doesn't heal and they didn't want to be persecuted for their faith anymore, so they made it some powerless state religion. In the 1700s in Holland God showed Himself and bars were empty, everyone got saved, but who stopped it? The religious calvinists. Act normal, don't show emotion.

 

[IrishEyes]

For a year I asked for signs, saying: If I don't get an 8+ or a 9 (Dutch equivalent of an A) for some school test I don't believe in God. And zjoot I got the 8+. Not once but daily or weekly a year long. Any dumb thing I demanded as a selfish teenager happened. It was just stuff for myself.

I had to smile when I read this. In my young child's mind I thought that's what praying was too. So simple right ...ask and you shall
receive? I didn't ask for signs though. As a child the main reasons I prayed was for selfish reasons, childish things. They didn't
always come true and yes I was in a sense disappointed when they didn't.

Then I entered the "praying does not work" stage. If I needed something or wanted something I had to work it out myself and not
depend on others to do it for me. I lived this way for many years but my conscience kept me from stepping out of the "do unto others"
lesson and I lived by that code for many years. Even when I was wronged or hurt I would not step out of that code.

Then when I began attending church regularly I listened particularly closely to why we need to pray: for help, for others, for declaring gratefulness for even the smallest blessing. I realized I would be praying for help to others and to give Thanks much more than for help.

Then I looked at how my prayers were worded. Did they sound like a demanding child? How do I react (now as a parent) when my
children come to me demanding and being insolent to others to get what they want?

So I then assumed the position of praying to show humility, and respect and prayed for "Guidance and Words"
"Dear Heavenly Father, I come to you for guidance so that you may hear. I ask humbly for open eyes and mind
to know your path when it is shown to me. To recognize and act on the hints and nudges as I feel them and trust in
them to lead me to the answer. Please allow me the patience to trust that in the right time the answer will be known.
I come to you in fullness of heart and love, in the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen"

I do pray so much more for giving Thankfulness of blessings because even though the world is a mess, there is so
much beauty, so much good in it. I pray for guidance to find the answer not for signs. I pray for patience because we all
have learned as an adult, some things take time and can't not be done in an instant. I also pray for the ability to help
my corner of the word and people I meet to know there is still goodness and good people in it.

I accept I am human and yes irritations pop up, it is my choosing or lack of patience that usually messes things up for me,
I can't blame anyone else but myself for those things. I can say for all I been through in life, the bad parts were not of heaven
it all was strictly created here on Earth not from God.

 

[Mitch86]

Actually, most of us worship THREE Gods: Yahweh, the Father, Jesus, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus, we call Him the Triune God. In addition, there are many other Gods: Mars, the God of War and lots more.

In reality, all our "Gods" are merely existing in our minds. I also worship Civilization VI, the God of War Games. I play that game for many hours every day. He is my favorite God.

 

[Dr.Colosso]

Actually, most of us worship THREE Gods: Yahweh, the Father, Jesus, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus, we call Him the Triune God. In addition, there are many other Gods: Mars, the God of War and lots more.

In reality, all our "Gods" are merely existing in our minds. I also worship Civilization VI, the God of War Games. I play that game for many hours every day. He is my favorite God.

Three? Nooooooooo! He's one! Never mind. Lets not start that discussion. Now I have that song in my head. Way of the triune God.

 

[Jim M]

Actually, most of us worship THREE Gods: Yahweh, the Father, Jesus, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus, we call Him the Triune God. In addition, there are many other Gods: Mars, the God of War and lots more.

In reality, all our "Gods" are merely existing in our minds. I also worship Civilization VI, the God of War Games. I play that game for many hours every day. He is my favorite God.

The Christian Trinity doctrine is a diabolical concept of God.

 

[Paco Dennis]

The Christian Trinity doctrine is a diabolical concept of God.

Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

 

[Paulina]

I recently read God doesn't create war. People do. What a crusty situation for all.

 

[JustDave]

Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

I've never understood the big deal about the three in one version of God. I learned it of course in Sunday school, but so what if God has a son with magical powers, or there is another entity that floats around mysteriously in the luminiferous æther (not sure what it is that the spirit one does). Do all three being just one add anything more to the religion that can't be done with only one supreme being? I find it interesting, but hardly impressive. I'm happy to hear there are some Christian sects that aren't buying into the extra "Buy one, get two free" pitch.

 

[Jim M]

I've never understood the big deal about the three in one version of God. I learned it of course in Sunday school, but so what if God has a son with magical powers, or there is another entity that floats around mysteriously in the luminiferous æther (not sure what it is that the spirit one does). Do all three being just one add anything more to the religion that can't be done with only one supreme being? I find it interesting, but hardly impressive. I'm happy to hear there are some Christian sects that aren't buying into the extra "Buy one, get two free" pitch.

I can understand the big deal.

Trinitarians are afraid to change. Today people are shunned and shamed for believing different, especially on 'trinity'. Today it's the norm to judge and bad-mouth one another. One 'Christian' tears the other apart and openly destroys the character of his own brothers and sisters.

Trinitarians will never come clean. There are millions of TRINITARIAN authors who over the course of 1,700 years have written countless books and articles on TRINITY. Today notable Trinitarians like MacArthur, Barnett, and thousands of others would NEVER admit Trinity is clearly FALSE and come out of the Trinitarian closet. Christians DO NOT admit mistakes! If they were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that throws the authority, legitimacy and reputation of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors under the bus!

Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the diabolical Trinitarian closet. They did everything they did to destroy his character and reputation. E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand, his works would have never been published.
Trinitarians are nasty and evil people.

Progressive Christianity is like the New Reformation.
Trinity is the most divisive, destructive, and contradictory doctrine in Christianity. I believe it was devised by demons to divide the church. Thousands have been tortured and murdered for rejecting it. The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) The Protestants, many of whom label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot and/or the beast, simply adopted it into their theology.

Trinity has become a cult within Christianity. Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrines development. That's why they, "Close the Crash Doors" and shame and shun people....just like pre-trib!
This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving millions OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity.

In the past, Trinitarians have a history of shutting down the books of nontrinitarians. They've made sure over the years to suppress any book in opposition to Trinity. Their books just didn't get published. Do you know why that is? It's more sinister than you think. They're in too deep.

More than the doctrine itself, it's about upholding their reputation and the reputation of thousands of highly respected theologians. Over the last 1,600 years the number of books, articles written, and number messages taught and preached by these highly respected and educated Theologians supporting Trinity is in the millions!

Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. They've "Closed the Crash Doors" by shunning and shaming people. JW'S are accused by some Protestants of being a cult for disfellowshipping people and rejecting Trinity. Trinitarians are doing the same thing to non-Trinitarians.

E.W Bullinger and T.D. Jakes are perfect examples. Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation.\par

E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would never have been published.
Joe Biden as President of the United States of America is greater than me.
Joe Biden and I are equally men.
You and Joe Biden both have human fathers. That's why neither of you can claim to be the Christ.

Bottom line...

Christians DO NOT admit mistakes. If the 'big shots' were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors!

The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have. And it makes no sense.

In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!

 

[rbtvgo]

Story time.

I was living in Houston, TX. I co-wrote some books with a guy. We'd meet occasionally (he lived in Dallas) and often have some long nights having fun, drinking some alcohol, and generally having a good time. He was married, and not at all religious.

Then his wife got pregnant. When she had the child, there were complications. The baby was deathly ill, and he had to spend a lot of time at the hospital watching on. Cutting a long story short - he started praying. I guess it was a gut reaction or something. The child pulled through, and he attributed that to God.

Next time I saw him, he was teetotal. He tried to convert me. He had done a 180. In conversation he had become a fundamentalist. His wife had followed suit. The change was so drastic, we never wrote together again. Communication broke down, suddenly he had become a stranger.

All this to show that I've been around situations that I can't explain. Whether it's legit or not, I don't know. I only know what I think and feel. it's not like I've never thought of these things, I do, and relatively often. But I just can't reach the point you're at. I likely never will. It is what it is. The Bible is a great set of lessons, and I wish more people lived by its word, not because of God, but because of goodness, fairness, and charity. That said, the Old Testament has some heinous things in it - but that's another story.

This is, as displayed by these forums, an ever fascinating topic. I don't think less of believers. I really don't. Religion is a multi-faceted thing. I do think the claim to religiosity is brought into disrepute by people claiming belief, whilst committing heinous acts. But again, that's a whole other story. I must say, I have no intention or desire to dissuade people like yourself. Life is a personal journey, you know?

I think I understand. My experience is that life for all of us can change over night. You may elect to change and then deal with the change going forward. The change may be more then you can bear or it will require you to dig in and continue. It is all very arbitrary and dependent on ones determination to push further or give up and go back to what's familiar.
Don't know if that makes any sense. All I can say is that it is not the bible at this point in your life. It is simply a matter of closing your eyes and talking to God. That simple. If you believe he exist then just close your eyes and talk to him. If you believe he is there. If you accept his existence, even if you don't know how or why, just talk to him.
What comes after, you will have to deal with. Stray thoughts out of no where. Statements that come in your mind that require answers or explanations that you never considered. Pertinent questions that you never considered. Answer them. Think about your answers and realize you are talking to God. No excuses, no justifications, just truth. Your talking to God not another human.
I can take you know further. Hope it helps

 

[Jim M]

Don't know if that makes any sense. All I can say is that it is not the bible at this point in your life. It is simply a matter of closing your eyes and talking to God. That simple. If you believe he exist then just close your eyes and talk to him. If you believe he is there. If you accept his existence, even if you don't know how or why, just talk to him.

That's the truth. I've argued Christianity in so many ways, especially eschatology and often couldn't sleep at night. I just left a forum - a 'Christian forum because somebody questioned my 'salvation all because I disagreed with him on trinity.

 

[Dr.Colosso]

That's the truth. I've argued Christianity in so many ways, especially eschatology and often couldn't sleep at night. I just left a forum - a 'Christian forum because somebody questioned my 'salvation all because I disagreed with him on trinity.

Horrible. I like how Michael Brown explains it, but they say he's not a real trinitarian. He debated rabbi's on that topic. Once on a forum a guy said I had 3 gods and I got totally confused. That's when I found Michael Brown. It's not a salvation topic, so I don't care if someone believes trinity or unity.

 

[Rich]

There are roughly 2.3 billion Christians in the world. If even 75% of them say a single prayer each day, that adds up to about 1.7 billion prayers daily—nearly 72 million every hour. It’s hard to imagine any entity processing that much simultaneous input. For me, the scientific explanation seems more coherent than the faith-based one

 

[JustDave]

I can understand the big deal.
In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!

There is a lot in your post for sure. I didn't want to copy and paste the whole thing, but I did want you to understand I read it all with a great deal of interest. I had no idea there was actually that much division in Christianity about the Trinity. If I try to see it through the eyes of a Christian, it's one of those things about doctrine that doesn't seem important enough to argue about. Apparently, I am wrong about that. If I look at it logically, there are enough other problems with doctrine to grab my attention. When theologians argue among themselves it is a curiosity. Why believe one unfathomable thing, but not another? It's hard to understand why.

 

[Jim M]

There is a lot in your post for sure. I didn't want to copy and paste the whole thing, but I did want you to understand I read it all with a great deal of interest. I had no idea there was actually that much division in Christianity about the Trinity. If I try to see it through the eyes of a Christian, it's one of those things about doctrine that doesn't seem important enough to argue about. Apparently, I am wrong about that. If I look at it logically, there there are enough other problems with doctrine to grab my attention. When theologians argue among themselves is a curiosity. Why believe one unfathomable thing, but not another? It's hard to understand why.

Very well said David. Several Churches have backed off badmouthing others in Christianity over doctrine, but the hard-nosed ones - the John MacArthur's and Paul Washer types continue to build themselves up by tearing others down in the Faith. They are mostly Calvinist and Fundamentalist. They drive people away from God and give Christianity as a whole a bad name, but they typically hang onto the 'holier than thou ones.

Other than Trinity, I disagree with so many other Christian doctrines like Pretribulation-ism, Preterist, literal 6-day creationism, hell, the intermediate state...etc.

 

[Jim M]

Story time.

I was living in Houston, TX. I co-wrote some books with a guy. We'd meet occasionally (he lived in Dallas) and often have some long nights having fun, drinking some alcohol, and generally having a good time. He was married, and not at all religious.

Then his wife got pregnant. When she had the child, there were complications. The baby was deathly ill, and he had to spend a lot of time at the hospital watching on. Cutting a long story short - he started praying. I guess it was a gut reaction or something. The child pulled through, and he attributed that to God.

Next time I saw him, he was teetotal. He tried to convert me. He had done a 180. In conversation he had become a fundamentalist. His wife had followed suit. The change was so drastic, we never wrote together again. Communication broke down, suddenly he had become a stranger.

All this to show that I've been around situations that I can't explain. Whether it's legit or not, I don't know. I only know what I think and feel. it's not like I've never thought of these things, I do, and relatively often. But I just can't reach the point you're at. I likely never will. It is what it is. The Bible is a great set of lessons, and I wish more people lived by its word, not because of God, but because of goodness, fairness, and charity. That said, the Old Testament has some heinous things in it - but that's another story.

This is, as displayed by these forums, an ever fascinating topic. I don't think less of believers. I really don't. Religion is a multi-faceted thing. I do think the claim to religiosity is brought into disrepute by people claiming belief, whilst committing heinous acts. But again, that's a whole other story. I must say, I have no intention or desire to dissuade people like yourself. Life is a personal journey, you know?

We must realize that while visiting the sick is commendable, it is often used a conversion tool. Whether one is a believer or not, I think God hears our innermost thoughts and concerns. However, many of these Fundees suggest their followers distant themselves from 'the world' or worldly people.



I've been through similar situations.

 

[Paco Dennis]

distant themselves from 'the world' or worldly people.

You say you have been in similar situations.? Was this denominational or kind of cult like? I have encountered very radical religious folk. "Leave the world, come and follow me." It is not just Christianity who uses this hollier than though technique.

 

[David777]

Although it is true there are some Christians that spend much of their lives involved in rigid dogma debates that have little Bible support, it is a mistake to think most ordinary Christians ever make a big deal out of Trinity dogma or that some denominations spend much effort pushing it. In fact, many people rarely read the Bible and what they do absorb tends to be limited to church services.

Many people are NOT dogma oriented and that is a prime reason even the Catholic church has changed so much in what they officially believe in this last century. As someone that still believes in Jesus, that does not believe in inerrancy, because the Bible itself greatly proves such incorrect in many places, or that Omniscient, Omnipresent, or Omnipotent entities including so called "gods", are physical nonsense of actions without forces aka magic, the Trinity debate is a tiny issue that the rejection of nonsense anthropocentrism has solidified. In this era, a person is not necessarily dependent on what religious authorities demand because the Internet has exposed vast amounts of previously hidden or difficult to obtain information, anyone can just perform a few key strokes to research.