AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
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- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
DW, I see no need to continue this. You and I have different opinions on the subject and let's just decide that is OKay and let this go.
In your opinion the Bible
- Thread starter AZ Jim
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Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
mg: You are threatened, or else you are holding back trying not to offend me.I cannot be offended on this or any other subject as long as we are only discussing ideas.
I assure you that I am not trying to do more than that.
However, I will cease and desist because you have the right to be left alone with your thoughts.
I'm sorry if you were offended by that, nothing personal. Keep in mind, it's really not a comment, just a joke representing my opinion (and many others) of the bible, which is what this thread is about. It shouldn't be dissected and taken so seriously, I have no interest in debating or changing anyone's opinions. I have respect for everyone's own choice to believe what they want when it comes to following any religion, that is their personal right to do so.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Not offended at all SeaBreeze but I've heard the fairy tale line too often to just let it pass.
I suspect that a lot of people who use it have never really read many fairy tales in their original form.
There was a reference to Jiminy Cricket earlier but that is Walt Disney.
How many people have actually read a translation of the fairy story novel The Adventures of Pinocchio by the Italian writer Carlo Collodi?
The novel has much more depth than the animated film and for this reason I wouldn't dismiss fairy tales too quickly.
I suspect that a lot of people who use it have never really read many fairy tales in their original form.
There was a reference to Jiminy Cricket earlier but that is Walt Disney.
How many people have actually read a translation of the fairy story novel The Adventures of Pinocchio by the Italian writer Carlo Collodi?
The novel has much more depth than the animated film and for this reason I wouldn't dismiss fairy tales too quickly.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I'm not offended. Here is my proof.
I am not here to knock your posts far from that.Also I am not here to sell the Bible or sway you one way or the other to read the book, that is your decision.
However when the Bible is discussed unless the person has read the book or at least the New Testament it is very hard to discuss on a forum. It is like discussing a movie when the person has only seen the trailer or judging a book by the title or reading the back cover comment by a newspaper.
Also when a bible is researched and read, it is best for it to be done in a group sometimes called Bible Study, but at least one member of the group should be fully able to offer reasons and explanations on the readings or have the ability to come back to the next meeting with the missing answers.
This is similar to book clubs where people sit around discussing a new book release over a coffee to understand the book.
However when the Bible is discussed unless the person has read the book or at least the New Testament it is very hard to discuss on a forum. It is like discussing a movie when the person has only seen the trailer or judging a book by the title or reading the back cover comment by a newspaper.
Also when a bible is researched and read, it is best for it to be done in a group sometimes called Bible Study, but at least one member of the group should be fully able to offer reasons and explanations on the readings or have the ability to come back to the next meeting with the missing answers.
This is similar to book clubs where people sit around discussing a new book release over a coffee to understand the book.
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
Dame Warrigal,
I'm the one who mentioned Jiminy Cricket, more specifically "When You Wish Upon a Star". The point I was trying to make is that prayer, and wishing upon a star are equally effective. The line in the song; "makes no difference who you are" is much more inclusive than anything the Bible has to offer. If I am going to be asked to believe in a supernatural being who is personally interested in me, I much prefer the Blue Fairy, to the psychotic old man portrayed in the Bible. Just putting out my personal thoughts here. We are all different.
I'm the one who mentioned Jiminy Cricket, more specifically "When You Wish Upon a Star". The point I was trying to make is that prayer, and wishing upon a star are equally effective. The line in the song; "makes no difference who you are" is much more inclusive than anything the Bible has to offer. If I am going to be asked to believe in a supernatural being who is personally interested in me, I much prefer the Blue Fairy, to the psychotic old man portrayed in the Bible. Just putting out my personal thoughts here. We are all different.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Underock, you have opened up a number of discussion points
However, if someone is convinced of the presence of an interactive God then the two are certainly not considered to be equivalent. Maybe for God it makes no difference, since there are myriad ways that people express the longing of their hearts but for people of all traditional faiths prayer and wishes are very different. I'll grant you that some prayers seem quite weirdly superstition, even to other people of faith. Burying a statue of St Joseph in the garden comes to mind, but hey, if God is paying attention, who knows? To me all prayer is mystery and calls for some faith on the part of the person praying. Jesus had quite a bit to say on this subject, all of it encouraging.
We sing a song in church that begins "Come as you are, that's how I want you". It is about as inclusive as you can get.
Reading the Bible requires a sense of history. The Old Testament stories are quite horrifying in the degree of exclusiveness that they contain. They are the stories of a tribal people. However, in the OT there is a strong social justice theme which Jesus uses to open out to people considered beyond the pale for orthodox Jews - women, prostitutes, tax collectors, people with skin diseases and foreigners. The development continues with the Letters to the early Christian churches where outsiders, Gentiles who were Roman, Greek, Syrian, Egyptian etc are welcomed into the sect. The sect had to change to accommodate them and the laws and practices that promoted exclusivity were swept away. Unfortunately, later centuries tended to reimpose some more exclusive practices. Humans have a tendency to regress from time to time.
The psychotic old man? Is that the only image of God that appears in the Bible? What about the father of the repentant delinquent son, or the shepherd who searches for the lost sheep, or the image of the suffering servant? Each image comes with a point about the nature of God, which nevertheless remains a mystery but each one speaks of a loving nature.
If there is no God, my position when I was an atheist, then there is equal effect from both actions. That effect is zero because both are merely superstitious behaviours.
However, if someone is convinced of the presence of an interactive God then the two are certainly not considered to be equivalent. Maybe for God it makes no difference, since there are myriad ways that people express the longing of their hearts but for people of all traditional faiths prayer and wishes are very different. I'll grant you that some prayers seem quite weirdly superstition, even to other people of faith. Burying a statue of St Joseph in the garden comes to mind, but hey, if God is paying attention, who knows? To me all prayer is mystery and calls for some faith on the part of the person praying. Jesus had quite a bit to say on this subject, all of it encouraging.
We sing a song in church that begins "Come as you are, that's how I want you". It is about as inclusive as you can get.
Reading the Bible requires a sense of history. The Old Testament stories are quite horrifying in the degree of exclusiveness that they contain. They are the stories of a tribal people. However, in the OT there is a strong social justice theme which Jesus uses to open out to people considered beyond the pale for orthodox Jews - women, prostitutes, tax collectors, people with skin diseases and foreigners. The development continues with the Letters to the early Christian churches where outsiders, Gentiles who were Roman, Greek, Syrian, Egyptian etc are welcomed into the sect. The sect had to change to accommodate them and the laws and practices that promoted exclusivity were swept away. Unfortunately, later centuries tended to reimpose some more exclusive practices. Humans have a tendency to regress from time to time.
The psychotic old man? Is that the only image of God that appears in the Bible? What about the father of the repentant delinquent son, or the shepherd who searches for the lost sheep, or the image of the suffering servant? Each image comes with a point about the nature of God, which nevertheless remains a mystery but each one speaks of a loving nature.
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
Dame Warrigal,
I can not deny the accuracy of your comments. I do find them to be rather selective.
Whether someone prays to a God or wishes on a star, as you admit yourself, the result is zero. Whether the prayer is convinced of God or not has no effect on the outcome. The prayer and the wisher are both hoping to benefit from a supernatural agency for which there is no evidence. They both seem equivalent to me.
We used to sing that hymn when we went to church too. No one is arguing about there not being some excellent lessons in the Bible. Back when I attended, constantly heard all about love thy neighbor, cast not the stone, the good Samaratin, the mote, etc. The Beatitudes? Great! Somewhere along the line, Jesus lost out to John of Patmos. Now its all about get that ticket to Heaven or else. Unfortunately the actions of a major segment of Christians in the US are anything but inclusive.
As far as that psychotic old man; He's hard to dismiss. He presumably is all knowing, set us all up to be sinners, then sends his "Son" to be tortured to death, ( except its really Him, so He's not really dead ), in order to "save" us. Except we aren't saved unless we believe in Jesus. If you don't, its eternal torture for you. Sounds pretty certifiable to me. Just my own opinion of course.
I can not deny the accuracy of your comments. I do find them to be rather selective.
Whether someone prays to a God or wishes on a star, as you admit yourself, the result is zero. Whether the prayer is convinced of God or not has no effect on the outcome. The prayer and the wisher are both hoping to benefit from a supernatural agency for which there is no evidence. They both seem equivalent to me.
We used to sing that hymn when we went to church too. No one is arguing about there not being some excellent lessons in the Bible. Back when I attended, constantly heard all about love thy neighbor, cast not the stone, the good Samaratin, the mote, etc. The Beatitudes? Great! Somewhere along the line, Jesus lost out to John of Patmos. Now its all about get that ticket to Heaven or else. Unfortunately the actions of a major segment of Christians in the US are anything but inclusive.
As far as that psychotic old man; He's hard to dismiss. He presumably is all knowing, set us all up to be sinners, then sends his "Son" to be tortured to death, ( except its really Him, so He's not really dead ), in order to "save" us. Except we aren't saved unless we believe in Jesus. If you don't, its eternal torture for you. Sounds pretty certifiable to me. Just my own opinion of course.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
Well we're not so far apart, Dame Warrigal. Anyone who is uncertain about it all is all right with me.
I have always been interested in ants. I was watching one many years ago, and it occurred to me that that ant believes the entire world is that small patch of dirt and grass. She goes about her business, scavenging for food, and thinking all she has to worry about are rival ants and predatory insects. She has no conception that I am there, and could end her life with my foot in an instant. We think we know it all.
I have always been interested in ants. I was watching one many years ago, and it occurred to me that that ant believes the entire world is that small patch of dirt and grass. She goes about her business, scavenging for food, and thinking all she has to worry about are rival ants and predatory insects. She has no conception that I am there, and could end her life with my foot in an instant. We think we know it all.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
At my age I've stopped knowing it all.
I'm happy now to hold fast to a few things that I have personally discovered to be valuable.
Among these are the values that I hold most dear.
I like the ant analogy and it is something that I too have pondered from time to time.
PS Last Sunday we had our monthly communion service and one of the participants was a Hindu man.
No, he isn't being converted. He's married to one of our young women and he's included like anyone else who approaches the table.
When they married they had a ceremony in our church followed by a Hindu one.
PPS Why are you still awake at this ungodly hour? Can't sleep?
I'm happy now to hold fast to a few things that I have personally discovered to be valuable.
Among these are the values that I hold most dear.
I like the ant analogy and it is something that I too have pondered from time to time.
PS Last Sunday we had our monthly communion service and one of the participants was a Hindu man.
No, he isn't being converted. He's married to one of our young women and he's included like anyone else who approaches the table.
When they married they had a ceremony in our church followed by a Hindu one.
PPS Why are you still awake at this ungodly hour? Can't sleep?
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
Nothing wrong with those values. I well remember the wonderful feeling of community, standing in church with my family and friends. We all cared about each others lives. The important part of the service for me were the notices of births, deaths, weddings. I served as the Senior Deacon, and tried to believe, but it never took with me in any passionate way. I can remember starting off prayers with "If you're really out there.." History and science have been a life long interest. Combined with my personal observations of the world, I find it impossible to believe these days. While I see the benefits for people from religion, I also see the vast harm that it causes.
You are correct. I can't sleep. Discovering this forum has helped with horrendously long nights. I no longer have any responsibilities, so I make it up in the morning. Well, I'm back to bed, shortly to be back to the toilet. Have a nice day.
You are correct. I can't sleep. Discovering this forum has helped with horrendously long nights. I no longer have any responsibilities, so I make it up in the morning. Well, I'm back to bed, shortly to be back to the toilet. Have a nice day.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Sleep tight.
Don't let the bed bugs bite.
Don't let the bed bugs bite.
JaniceM
Well-known Member
- Location
- still lost between two shores..
My belief: The Bible is one very long historical narrative, consisting of some fact, more parables, and a lot of personal viewpoints.
My reasons: Upon learning more about Bible history, who wrote the various books, and when and where, and for whom, is one of the most important points. It also accounts for a lot of the contradictions.
Anomaly 73
Member
Well said Underock. I subscribe to the most inclusive theory...Nature as God and us as it's tools. I actually believe she is trying (through evolution) to become coherently manifest in our being. So far, we've managed to create a situation where we are approaching Utopia and Armageddon at an equally rapid pace...and waiting for our successors to arrive. Through artificial intelligence or genetic engineering...we're about to create them. Let's hope they have some answers for us.
Knight
Well-known Member
An opinion based on not reading the bible or one of the many versions is as valid as anothers with the same input. But if a person has read and compared events that are documented and listed those side by side to show why they believe one way or the other I would be interested in that.
So my opinion is based on not reading the bible but taking some of the more known claims like Noah's life span, or our planet being created & populated by a sentient being that would have to be over 4 & 1/2 billion years old. I'm not even sure it could be used as a moral guide since referring to a sentient being/maker as benevolent and turning some poor woman into a pillar of salt isn't my idea of benevolent.
Short answer
I think the bible was written when there was no science to explain what was not understood.
I do like the story of Jesus coming across townsfolk about to stone a woman. Upon seeing that Jesus was heard to say. Let those amoung you without sin cast the 1st. stone. WHAM the woman was hit with a stone. Jesus next words were. Mother sometimes you make me so mad.
So my opinion is based on not reading the bible but taking some of the more known claims like Noah's life span, or our planet being created & populated by a sentient being that would have to be over 4 & 1/2 billion years old. I'm not even sure it could be used as a moral guide since referring to a sentient being/maker as benevolent and turning some poor woman into a pillar of salt isn't my idea of benevolent.
Short answer
I think the bible was written when there was no science to explain what was not understood.
I do like the story of Jesus coming across townsfolk about to stone a woman. Upon seeing that Jesus was heard to say. Let those amoung you without sin cast the 1st. stone. WHAM the woman was hit with a stone. Jesus next words were. Mother sometimes you make me so mad.
Interesting comments, and I can see that the Bible is held up by many here as being the subject of many varying beliefs. I'm not saying anything to dissuade you or sway you one way or another.
Just something for you to consider while lying in bed tonight. (after this I'm hitting the sack myself)
A few weeks ago, many of you responded to a post about an interesting topic concerning the RFID Microchip implant being used by a company in Wisconsin. (this is relevant to the topic at hand – since it concerns the authenticity of the Bible)
Since I have been interested in this topic also, I read the posts and was very interested in the many comments. As I was looking up more information on the subject, I checked with Wikipedia, which I often do to get a quick summary of the relative points.
Suddenly a statement jumped off the page at me. I had read something in John’s Revelation in the Bible that sounded glaringly familiar. As many of you know from my previous posts, I read scripture regularly.
This is what it was: “Critics contend, however, that the technology could lead to political repression as governments could use implants to track and persecute human rights activists, labor activists, civil dissidents, and political opponents; criminals and domestic abusers could use them to stalk and harass their victims; slaveholders could use them to prevent captives from escaping; and child abusers could use them to locate and abduct children….”
https://mod3rnmedia.com/2017/07/25/...technology-being-used-on-wisconsin-employees/ (scroll down about a page to see it)
Compare this with Rev 13:16 which says: He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[SUP][f][/SUP] the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (rev 13:16)
That’s pretty impressive when one realizes that these words were penned by John the apostle close to the year 95 AD and who was, by all authorities in his 90’s. This was during Domitian’s Reign of Terror (he was assassinated in 96 AD)
My question: How can any of you not say that’s a pretty darn good forecast from one who made it 1900 years ago? Would any of you make a forecast of what will be available in just 50 years from now? (me neither) Conclusion: the Bible is more than a collection of outdated platitudes.
Just something for you to consider while lying in bed tonight. (after this I'm hitting the sack myself)
A few weeks ago, many of you responded to a post about an interesting topic concerning the RFID Microchip implant being used by a company in Wisconsin. (this is relevant to the topic at hand – since it concerns the authenticity of the Bible)
Since I have been interested in this topic also, I read the posts and was very interested in the many comments. As I was looking up more information on the subject, I checked with Wikipedia, which I often do to get a quick summary of the relative points.
Suddenly a statement jumped off the page at me. I had read something in John’s Revelation in the Bible that sounded glaringly familiar. As many of you know from my previous posts, I read scripture regularly.
This is what it was: “Critics contend, however, that the technology could lead to political repression as governments could use implants to track and persecute human rights activists, labor activists, civil dissidents, and political opponents; criminals and domestic abusers could use them to stalk and harass their victims; slaveholders could use them to prevent captives from escaping; and child abusers could use them to locate and abduct children….”
https://mod3rnmedia.com/2017/07/25/...technology-being-used-on-wisconsin-employees/ (scroll down about a page to see it)
Compare this with Rev 13:16 which says: He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[SUP][f][/SUP] the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (rev 13:16)
That’s pretty impressive when one realizes that these words were penned by John the apostle close to the year 95 AD and who was, by all authorities in his 90’s. This was during Domitian’s Reign of Terror (he was assassinated in 96 AD)
My question: How can any of you not say that’s a pretty darn good forecast from one who made it 1900 years ago? Would any of you make a forecast of what will be available in just 50 years from now? (me neither) Conclusion: the Bible is more than a collection of outdated platitudes.
HiDesertHal
Senior Member
Of course it's Fiction!
But nevertheless, it presents examples for living a decent, proper life.
HDH
But nevertheless, it presents examples for living a decent, proper life.
HDH
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Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Fiction/non fiction is too restrictive to classify the various books contained within the covers of the bible.
To determine that it is all one or the other is to misunderstand the purpose of the different books.
To determine that it is all one or the other is to misunderstand the purpose of the different books.
terry123
Well-known Member
- Location
- Houston, Tx.
I believe in a Supreme Being and that I am a spiritual being having a human experience. I am of the Episcopal faith with a lot of Unity church teachings. I don't attend Church like I used to mainly because I don't drive as much. I don't feel the need to "convert" or prove my faith to anyone. Everybody has to find their way and mine isn't for everybody. My faith is very personal and I do my meditations, devotionals and prayers in private. I did discover that the Episcopal church I want to attend has a program to help people who have problems driving to attend services. So I will now be able to go and take communion with others. I have so much to be thankful for and I give thanks each day for everything God has given me. I walked around with a time bomb in my head for 50 years before it ruptured and the day I was to be taken off life support I came out of my coma. Funeral arrangements were being made as my family was assured I could not survive any longer. I was in a medically induced coma for 6 weeks until I said good morning to the doc who was getting ready to unhook me. That's how I wound up here in Houston as I had to have AGGRESSIVE rehab. I was finally able to go back to work full time and worked for 10 years until the office was laid off and none of us wanted to move to St. Louis. So yes my faith was reinforced with that experience. Still had more episodes with that aneurysm and 2 more procedures but for the past 5 years okay except for a few handicaps that I can live with.
The Bible is a hodgepodge of truth and fiction, exalted philosophy and dire threats designed to scare the people into obeying the religious authorities, family histories and financial records, fairy tales such as Adam and Eve in the garden (they had two sons, one killed the other, then somehow, grandchildren mysteriously appeared even though Adam, Eve, and Cain were supposedly the only living people on earth) and the story of Noah, you name it. Much of it is utter nonsense, of course; it boggles the mind that in this day and age there are people who literally believe what is written there as opposed to the findings of modern science.
Even the Ten Commandments - "Honor the Sabbath" is right up there with "Thou shalt not kill?" I wonder how many believers have ever really given it some serious thought? (For instance, Leviticus tells us to kill those who do not honor the Sabbath properly.)
One story in the Bible that I do like, and sort of believe, is the story of Joseph and his brothers. It contains no supernatural interventions; it's a completely human story.
I wonder if the Bible was an early version of the Internet, with everybody getting his two cents in, regardless of truth vs. fiction?
Even the Ten Commandments - "Honor the Sabbath" is right up there with "Thou shalt not kill?" I wonder how many believers have ever really given it some serious thought? (For instance, Leviticus tells us to kill those who do not honor the Sabbath properly.)
One story in the Bible that I do like, and sort of believe, is the story of Joseph and his brothers. It contains no supernatural interventions; it's a completely human story.
I wonder if the Bible was an early version of the Internet, with everybody getting his two cents in, regardless of truth vs. fiction?