In your opinion the Bible

If you believe the Bible is the root of your faith, then that's what you believe. If you believe science to be fact, then that's what you believe. So each believer in the Bible has to reconcile the facts from the Bible with facts from Science.
 

fuzzybuddy said:
If you believe the Bible is the root of your faith, then that's what you believe. If you believe science to be fact, then that's what you believe. So each believer in the Bible has to reconcile the facts from the Bible with facts from Science.
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The bible is not the root of my faith - it is a collection of books that are useful for teaching and I do not read it literally.

I don't regard science to be fact - science is a body of knowledge that has been arrived at using the scientific method, and it is growing exponentially and constantly revising itself. Bible scholarship, as distinct from bible study, has a lot in common with some branches of science.

Reconciling things that appear contradictory requires a certain degree of intellectual maturity and some insight.
Living with uncertainty requires a degree of patience.
 
Butterfly said:
I am a practicing Lutheran and my faith is founded in the Bible.
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I was baptized a Luthran in 1948.

While living with my parents, I went to church whenever they did, but never on my own in later life.

I don't go to church because the Sermons are too boring.

My wife is a Catholic and I'm a Protestant. The way we resolve our different faiths is not to go to church at all!

In the 23 years that we've been married, we have never been to a church, and God Willing, we never will!

HiDesertHal
 
ha! Only took an hour to figure out how to post.
Bible as fiction or nonfiction.
I have been on several facets of this question during my years. It is not two sides but many sides like a cut diamond.
As a young person - bible as absolute truth was incredulous.
I became a believer in the work of Christ at age 20. Yet still was reserved on complete non-fiction view of Bible. I believe many people in churches are reserved on this facet. How could this book be without error when written by people?
I was confronted with this thread's question in my 30's. Since I believed and had a personal relationship with Jesus, is it reasonable that He communicates and reveals himself to me by way of the Bible? Over the last 30 years I have come to appreciate that the Bible is in fact God's word spoken through people. The original documents have been lost. But, the documents we have today are in fact faithful renderings of the original God inspired writings of the past. It is based on God himself and His capacity to work through people.
 
AZ Jim said:
Is the bible a work of fiction or non-fiction? What are your reasons for believing as you do? Please no insulting anyone's opinion.
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Yes, the Bible is a work of fiction because it is based on oral traditions that may have come forward after 100,000 years. In other words, when man discovered writing he wrote down the oral memories of generation after generation. So it wasn't like a reporter telling a story he took notes on while present at ball game. These oral traditions are also colored by archetype images that were common to people all over the planet. Dr. Carl Jung thought people lived through these archetypes which seemed like the only instinct of man. Dr. Jung's theories are still accepted today.

Now here comes another problem for the Bible in Genesis. I already established that the Bible was based on oral tradition. Also this is describing perhaps the most momentous time in human history: When human beings were becoming sentient. But the book of Genesis holds an exact picture of the creation of the universe as it seems to describe the big bang. "Let there be light". So here is the question. If the Bible is based on oral tradition from perhaps 100,000 years ago. And the writers of the Bible are rendering a good description, how did people who barely had knowledge and could barely think come up with the big bang? All they could have known about were the sun, moon and the stars in the milky way. Who imparted knowledge of the big bang and other things to early man.

Yes, the Bible is fiction by definition, but the source remains unknown.
 
AZ Jim said:
Is the bible a work of fiction or non-fiction? What are your reasons for believing as you do? Please no insulting anyone's opinion.
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The bible is a work of fiction because it does not report the facts as they occurred. The bible is the written history of tribal oral tradition that went back thousands of years. In Genesis the bible is relating what may be the most momentous time in human history. It is talking about the evolution of human sentience. Adam and Eve was code for man and woman. Mans early struggle to gain knowledge and separate themselves from the animals.
 
Every scripture of every religion is written by fallible humans giving their perceptions of reality. Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality. Consider my thread GOD IS A HOLOGRAM....the link suggests that all information is encoded in every atom of everything that exists. This science says that the "God particle" in every atom is what holds every atom together, which gives all atoms mass. Everything that exists is dependent upon the "God particle" for its existence. So my conclusion is, God is a hologram of information, and everything that exists fits inside of God. And the hologram is infinite. Just a theory, but no different than any other religion. To me, truth is God....is it possible to define truth? Is truth reality?
 
hangover said:
Every scripture of every religion is written by fallible humans giving their perceptions of reality. Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality. Consider my thread GOD IS A HOLOGRAM....the link suggests that all information is encoded in every atom of everything that exists. This science says that the "God particle" in every atom is what holds every atom together, which gives all atoms mass. Everything that exists is dependent upon the "God particle" for its existence. So my conclusion is, God is a hologram of information, and everything that exists fits inside of God. And the hologram is infinite. Just a theory, but no different than any other religion. To me, truth is God....is it possible to define truth? Is truth reality?
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You say everyone giving their perception of reality is fallible. You say that reality is truth. You said our perceptions are truth. You say our beliefs are our perceptions of reality. You say reality is truth and our perceptions are truth. You say beliefs are our perception of reality. Which is what? Where are the real definitions of perception, truth, and reality? You make the assumption that we are going to accept your, on the fly, definitions.

Lets take the idea that God is a hologram. You say everything in the universe depends on the god particle for its existence. In physics the "God Particle" is also known as a heavy boson. The part about that particle imparting mass is correct. The person associated with naming this particle said it was a mistake. He knew people would not let go of it. Since the discovery of the heavy boson many other things involving particles have been discovered. They are talking about a fifth force. So the God Particle may not be the end all you thought it was. This is not unusual for physics. Something new is always coming up.

After looking at your argument it seems clear that you have a strong desire to prove the existence of God. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Your final argument does not prove the existence of God as a hologram. This is because you cannot produce a working definition of God, or locate the presence of God. You seem to be looking very far away for God. I did the same thing. But, I found God right next to me.
 
Warrigal said:
I think you and I have arrived at much the same place, Uncontrolable, and by walking the same paths.
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It has been said that each of us carries our own cross. However, some of us have a far heavier cross. I think yours is one of those. I thank God that you have survived. There are people like us out there. Imagine the stories that might be shared. I was told, in some of my earliest personality tests that I should have been, among other things, a priest. But, now I feel more like, channel is not the right word. Although in AA we use the St. Francis prayer as our ideal when in meditation. The beginning words of that prayer are: Lord make me a channel of your"...peace, love, etc. I appreciate your notice.
 
Presupposition: an implicit assumption about the world or belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted.
The 40 human authors of the Bible write from the presupposition that God is the creator and that He communicates with humans. Even Jesus spoke from the presupposition of the eternal God as He claimed equality with Him. jesus was put to death for His claims. Would He have been treated any differently today?

It appears today that peoples' stand on the fiction vs. nonfiction debate over the Bible hinges on a person's presupposition of the existence of God and/or who God is.
 
Warrigal said:
I suppose it does say somewhere, Proverbs maybe?, "spare the rod and spoil the child".
I've heard similar ideas on this forum about how to deal with punks and gang bangers.

I was once caned for talking while the teacher was out of the room too but it was a public school.
How did he know? My best friend ratted on me. :mad:

In the 1950s such punishment was the norm. Nuns didn't have a monopoly on corporal punishment.
Parents applied the razor strop to their own children, with or without the benefit of anything they may have read in the Bible.
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There was a revolution in my school. The big kids stole the straps out of the desks. And no one knew who did it.
 
Ponderer said:
Presupposition: an implicit assumption about the world or belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted.
The 40 human authors of the Bible write from the presupposition that God is the creator and that He communicates with humans. Even Jesus spoke from the presupposition of the eternal God as He claimed equality with Him. jesus was put to death for His claims. Would He have been treated any differently today?

It appears today that peoples' stand on the fiction vs. nonfiction debate over the Bible hinges on a person's presupposition of the existence of God and/or who God is.
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I agree with you about God. If God spoke the verses to someone who wrote it down, that is OK with me. My question is: "Why didn't
God just cause a book to appear?"

As for the other scenerio, by definition of what fiction is, the Bible would be categorized as fiction. Does this mean there is no God? No. I have a deep belief in God, who has been very active in my life. If interested you could read "My Spiritual Story" It is in the forum. Meanwhile, the first people on this planet were just becoming sentient. This could go back 50,000 years. They had no language in the beginning because language takes time to develop. My point is, there was an oral tradition because there had to be.

Was this inspired by God? In a sense it was because the collective unconscious was there, The collective unconscious was a broad collection of archetypal images that people live through. This knowledge is well accepted. Check out Dr. Carl Jung (archetypes) and the MMPI (personality test} which is based on Jung's work and is still being used today. If God participated it was likely through the collective unconscious. But, the Bible still comes out of a work of fiction. More because God did not write it, or dictate it.
 
Uncontrolable said:
You say everyone giving their perception of reality is fallible. You say that reality is truth. You said our perceptions are truth. You say our beliefs are our perceptions of reality. You say reality is truth and our perceptions are truth. You say beliefs are our perception of reality. Which is what? Where are the real definitions of perception, truth, and reality? You make the assumption that we are going to accept your, on the fly, definitions.

Lets take the idea that God is a hologram. You say everything in the universe depends on the god particle for its existence. In physics the "God Particle" is also known as a heavy boson. The part about that particle imparting mass is correct. The person associated with naming this particle said it was a mistake. He knew people would not let go of it. Since the discovery of the heavy boson many other things involving particles have been discovered. They are talking about a fifth force. So the God Particle may not be the end all you thought it was. This is not unusual for physics. Something new is always coming up.

After looking at your argument it seems clear that you have a strong desire to prove the existence of God. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Your final argument does not prove the existence of God as a hologram. This is because you cannot produce a working definition of God, or locate the presence of God. You seem to be looking very far away for God. I did the same thing. But, I found God right next to me.
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I think you misread my post...I said that those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of reality. I also said that humans are fallible. I said that reality is truth, but I didn't say that perceptions were truth. I did say that beliefs are perceptions of reality. But perceptions are different than truth. In order to see the truth, one must give up beliefs and perceptions. One can not know the Christ, as long as the belief exists that Christ doesn't. One can not know that every religion comes from the "all that is"....There is nothing that exists outside of the "all that is"...The Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, yet almost all of them will say that their god is different than the others. As long as they hold that "belief", they can't know reality.

I don't assume anyone will accept my definitions. I have no desire to be a preacher or prophet. I said that for me, truth is God...that's the God I worship.

In the link I provided in the GOD IS A HOLOGRAM thread, it talks about other particles and the fifth element. It talks about particles being separated by vast distances which act together, making the space/time an illusion.

The article doesn't say that God is a hologram, that's just my perception, which can be a fallacy, as I'm human too. Seeing God as everything that exists, is enough proof for me...I don't need to prove it to anyone. I'm content.

The God particle is what gives us mass...without it we don't exist, and neither does anything else. It's the glue for every atom. And every atom makes up everything in our bodies...all in perfect order. The rest of the universe is in perfect order...like our solar system, our galaxy, our earth, everything. Sometimes there are perceptions of chaos, but that is lack of understanding. There is a reason for everything. Cause and effect.

You said I seem to be looking very far away for God, but that can't be, because God is in everything. God is the hologram of all existence. Nothing exists outside of God.

I have another link I will provide in the GOD IS A HOLOGRAM thread, that explains that dark matter and dark energy is illusion.
 
Again, this discussion is an opinion of Bible as fiction or nonfiction.
Oral tradition is a fact of some scripture. Genesis contains portions that must be oral accounts. If you follow the ages of death for the patriarchs, it appears that Noah's father would have been able to talk to Adam personally. Genesis was written by Moses many years later. The religious experts of the past ratified "scripture" as documents obtained by verbal plenary inspiration. Ie God breathed to human authors. Scripture is both written by man and by God.

Why? Psalms 115:3 says " God is in the heavens; He does as He pleases." Frankly, God chose to give us the Bible through people. I understand that our debate today is exactly within God's plan. If you choose to reject the Bible as truth, you are free to do so. If we had an ironclad unrefutable presentation of God's word, we would not have the freedom today to debate His existence or His truth. God has given us the freedom to choose. Almost sounds American.
 
hangover said:
I think you misread my post...I said that those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of reality. I also said that humans are fallible. I said that reality is truth, but I didn't say that perceptions were truth. I did say that beliefs are perceptions of reality. But perceptions are different than truth. In order to see the truth, one must give up beliefs and perceptions. One can not know the Christ, as long as the belief exists that Christ doesn't. One can not know that every religion comes from the "all that is"....There is nothing that exists outside of the "all that is"...The Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, yet almost all of them will say that their god is different than the others. As long as they hold that "belief", they can't know reality.

I don't assume anyone will accept my definitions. I have no desire to be a preacher or prophet. I said that for me, truth is God...that's the God I worship.

In the link I provided in the GOD IS A HOLOGRAM thread, it talks about other particles and the fifth element. It talks about particles being separated by vast distances which act together, making the space/time an illusion.

The article doesn't say that God is a hologram, that's just my perception, which can be a fallacy, as I'm human too. Seeing God as everything that exists, is enough proof for me...I don't need to prove it to anyone. I'm content.

The God particle is what gives us mass...without it we don't exist, and neither does anything else. It's the glue for every atom. And every atom makes up everything in our bodies...all in perfect order. The rest of the universe is in perfect order...like our solar system, our galaxy, our earth, everything. Sometimes there are perceptions of chaos, but that is lack of understanding. There is a reason for everything. Cause and effect.

You said I seem to be looking very far away for God, but that can't be, because God is in everything. God is the hologram of all existence. Nothing exists outside of God.

I have another link I will provide in the GOD IS A HOLOGRAM thread, that explains that dark matter and dark energy is illusion.
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In the second line of your post you say, "reality is truth and our perceptions are truth. You cannot say both are truth unless you say both reality and perception are truth. One big problem is that you do not define your terms. What is reality? What is truth? What are perceptions? In order for accuracy your definition of each must contain the definition of the other. It has been my experience in writing research papers that without proper definition they won't be taken seriously.

What is the 5th element? Is that the fifth element on the periodic table? And I suppose you can use the term God particle. If you use a heavy boson as a definition of God. Does this mean that the God particle takes in all of reality? Here we go. What is reality? Does the God particle stop the universe from expanding forever. No, a heavy boson cannot do that. So your God particle is not everything in the universe, or all powerful. Again, I am willing to believe you. But, I do not blindly believe anything. I can be very wrong about things. That is why I am careful.
 
Uncontrolable said:
In the second line of your post you say, "reality is truth and our perceptions are truth. You cannot say both are truth unless you say both reality and perception are truth. One big problem is that you do not define your terms. What is reality? What is truth? What are perceptions? In order for accuracy your definition of each must contain the definition of the other. It has been my experience in writing research papers that without proper definition they won't be taken seriously.

What is the 5th element? Is that the fifth element on the periodic table? And I suppose you can use the term God particle. If you use a heavy boson as a definition of God. Does this mean that the God particle takes in all of reality? Here we go. What is reality? Does the God particle stop the universe from expanding forever. No, a heavy boson cannot do that. So your God particle is not everything in the universe, or all powerful. Again, I am willing to believe you. But, I do not blindly believe anything. I can be very wrong about things. That is why I am careful.
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This is the second line of my post...." Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality."
It doesn't say that perceptions are truth, it says that "beliefs" are perceptions of reality. Those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of what they "believed" to be reality. The ancients did not understand what that reality was. What we call UFO's, they called fiery chariots. Just as an example.

It's all about information.....information can not be destroyed....it's encoded in every atom in the God particle. Hence, the hologram. In the bible it says that God created everything....so nothing exists outside of God, and God is in everything. Without the God particle, nothing exists.

Disclaimer: I'm human, therefore fallible.
 
hangover said:
This is the second line of my post...." Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality."
It doesn't say that perceptions are truth, it says that "beliefs" are perceptions of reality. Those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of what they "believed" to be reality. The ancients did not understand what that reality was. What we call UFO's, they called fiery chariots. Just as an example.

It's all about information.....information can not be destroyed....it's encoded in every atom in the God particle. Hence, the hologram. In the bible it says that God created everything....so nothing exists outside of God, and God is in everything. Without the God particle, nothing exists.

Disclaimer: I'm human, therefore fallible.
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I don't care about another person's view of reality. I want to know what you believe reality is. Also, if the heavy boson has all the information, how do we know that? How do we extract that information? What makes you think your version of reality is reality for everyone? What if there is a "real" reality that does not agree with yours.
 
Gentlemen, you can discuss these esoteric concepts until the cows come home but in the end you will have achieved very little.

I once took a theology course which had an element within it that examined the paradox that God is all powerful and totally good yet evil exists. We were presented with various attempts to reconcile these three statements and none of them made any sense to me, including the version presented in Genesis 2.

They were doing my head in and when I was wrestling with the material I received a flash - the modern word for revelation.

I had this thought - this is the wrong question. The proper question you should examine is "who is my neighbour".
I knew that this question is the introduction to the parable of the Good Samaritan.
This well known story is easy to understand - we teach it to quite young children and they get it - but it takes a lifetime to learn how to live out the parable as we grow in understanding of the question. Ultimately, when we see everyone as our neighbour, we have absorbed the lesson as Christ intended.

This is why I no longer spend any time trying to sort out the concepts that you are bouncing back and forth. I have become like a little child again as Christ intended and I am living in the Kingdom, or rather I am busy helping to build the Kingdom on this earth. This is my reality.
 
Warrigal said:
Gentlemen, you can discuss these esoteric concepts until the cows come home but in the end you will have achieved very little.

I once took a theology course which had an element within it that examined the paradox that God is all powerful and totally good yet evil exists. We were presented with various attempts to reconcile these three statements and none of them made any sense to me, including the version presented in Genesis 2.

They were doing my head in and when I was wrestling with the material I received a flash - the modern word for revelation.

I had this thought - this is the wrong question. The proper question you should examine is "who is my neighbour".
I knew that this question is the introduction to the parable of the Good Samaritan.
This well known story is easy to understand - we teach it to quite young children and they get it - but it takes a lifetime to learn how to live out the parable as we grow in understanding of the question. Ultimately, when we see everyone as our neighbour, we have absorbed the lesson as Christ intended.

This is why I no longer spend any time trying to sort out the concepts that you are bouncing back and forth. I have become like a little child again as Christ intended and I am living in the Kingdom, or rather I am busy helping to build the Kingdom on this earth. This is my reality.
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There is no way I can disagree with what you are saying. Especially since I said that I am willing to have God work through me. I am constantly ready to participate in God's will. Of course I have that article of faith that I am doing God's will against the possibility that I misunderstood the request. There is a reason that I make myself available for that conjecture which I have already solved. I do so because I believe it is God's will. By the way. There is a "reason" for evil. We live through our archetypes. If our journey has turned negative we are doing the evil available through that archetype. Archetypes are neutral until we engage them. They can help us and be positive as well. We make a contract with God before we come to earth. The contract may involve being part of a situation where we have to decide between good and evil. God makes no judgement. And as you know God, or Angels. or deceased family members also give us aid.

The last thing is I participate in what seems to be rather empty discourse is that I am trying to assist my brothers or sisters to discover what they are searching for. I know how reality is constructed. Notice most recently I have been having a discussion in which I am challenging their idea about what reality is. Once they ask themselves that question they start moving in a different direction. I stop the discussion when I believe they cannot hear me yet. I have changed lives this way.

I listened to Mother Theresa's biography, In the first few pages she admonishes her fellow Nuns to treat others as you would treat Jesus. I think that is what you do.

There is a thread that asked what we thought we might be able to teach. I said I could teach people how to have a spiritual awakening. I have no doubt of this. So far I don't think anyone has asked me to discuss it with them. They either already know, or they are afraid to ask.

I really appreciate your comments. I feel like we share the same reality. I feel your kindness. I hope I did not talk your leg off. Especially since we only have two.
 
No worries, Uncontrolable.

I have a good brain and I love stimulating discussions but when it comes to theology and questions that are largely unanswerable I tire easily these days. If you have read Fowler's Stages of Faith you will understand when I say that my faith has developed to the second last stage - Simplifying Faith. Note simplifying faith does not equate to simplistic faith. It means that I am ready to drop a lot of things that I spent time on in my younger days and concentrate on a core or simple matters. I don't bother with the Book of Revelations now. I am content to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus.

Everyone has faith in something and everyone's faith develops over time. As with stages of cognitive or moral development, not everyone attains the higher levels. There is no reason to look down on someone who seems to be operating at an lower level than we do because it is not a lower level - it is just an earlier stage of growth.
 

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