Is prison too harsh a sentence for aborting a child almost full term ?

hollydolly

hollydolly

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try not to make this political please... but In your opinion.. is a 2 year prison sentence given to a Mother of 3 who aborted a baby at between 32 and 34 weeks too harsh ?

Given that 40 weeks is considered full term, would you think this was tantamount to manslaughter/ murder..?

Back story in the news today... The woman was pregnant by another man , not her partner


A woman has been jailed for more than two years for taking abortion pills after the legal cut-off time while rules were relaxed during lockdown.

Carla Foster, a 44-year-old mother of three, took abortion-inducing drugs when she was between 32 and 34 weeks pregnant.

She claimed she felt too “embarrassed” to see a doctor after becoming pregnant in 2019 and that she did not know how far along she was.

At Stoke-on-Trent Crown Court on Monday, prosecutors outlined how she made several internet searches between February and May 2020, including “how to lose a baby at six months” and “how to hide a pregnancy bump”.

The then Health Secretary Matt Hancock approved a change to abortion rules on March 30 2020 allowing services to prescribe and deliver pills over the phone.

Women were previously required to attend a clinic for an in-person appointment before taking the pills at home.

Three and a half weeks later after this change, Foster searched online: “I need to have an abortion but I’m past 24 weeks” - the legal limit for abortions unless in extreme circumstances.

​

She lied to a nurse practitioner from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) during a phone call 12 days later, convincing them she was just seven weeks pregnant.

The drugs mifepristone and misoprostol were then sent to her home address.

She took mifepristone on May 9, and misoprostol two days later.

That evening while making a 999 call to say she was in labour, she suffered a miscarriage and her daughter Lily was born stillborn.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/12/carla-foster-abortion-pill-legal-limit-jailed-lockdown/

I'm asking this question here on the forum.. because Quote'' Before her sentencing, a letter from the heads of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives and other health bodies had urged for a non-custodial sentence, warning her imprisonment would “deter other women from accessing telemedical abortion service” or being “open and honest with medical professionals”.

Chiara Capraro, women’s human rights programme director at Amnesty International UK, said: “It is shocking - and quite frankly terrifying - that in 2023 a woman in the UK has been sentenced to jail because of a law dating back to 1861.

“Access to abortion is essential healthcare and should be managed as such. This is a tremendously sad story and underscores the desperate need for legal reform in relation to reproductive health.

Clare Murphy, the chief executive of BPAS, said: “We are shocked and appalled by the decision to sentence a mother of three to 28 months in prison for using abortion pills to end her own pregnancy.

“No woman can ever go through this again. In their sentencing remarks, the judge made it that women will only be protected from prosecution if MPs bring forward legal change.

what's your views...

1.. was she within her rights to end this pregnancy after 24 weeks... and 2... should she have been imprisoned ? ( you can answer both or just one of the questions if you prefer)
 

She should have taken steps well before the 24 weeks. The excuse of not knowing how far along she was does not fly. Why the delay? Was she waiting to see if the would be father was going to step up?

prison, no, she is not a criminal, just and I hate to use the word, but stupid. And it punishes her 3 children.
 
Does anyone think by imprisoning her, a message is being sent to other women that this will not be accepted....?

For me I feel that IS the message.. and for me.. she did very wrong, having the abortion 6 weeks before her due date..I feel she knew what she was doing.. but prison ?.. I'm not so sure ... however what alternative punishment could have been given which would dissuade others from doing the same ?
 
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hollydolly said:
1.. was she within her rights to end this pregnancy after 24 weeks... and 2... should she have been imprisoned ? ( you can answer both or just one of the questions if you prefer)
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It depends on what state, country or province this happened in. The governing body decides on what rights we have or don't have, and administers the sentence for any infraction. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with the law or the punishment.
 
I tend to look at situations such as this in a clinical or analytical way, and set any emotional or biased feelings aside.
We live in a country that has established laws that it is wrong to knowingly take a human life, and it is punishable to do so.
So the question really comes down to is a fetus a human life and was the taking of it intentional.
The first qualification of it being human is of course: Yes
The second qualification is whether it is considered life. While there are many qualities that have been used to describe this, generally they adhere to these traits:
Does it have organized cells & different organization of cells (such as lungs, heart, skin, etc...)?
Does it use energy and consume nutrients to carry out the chemical reactions that sustain life? The sum total of the biochemical reactions occurring in an organism is called its metabolism.
Homeostasis: Living organisms regulate their internal environment to maintain the relatively narrow range of conditions needed for cell function.
Growth: Living organisms undergo regulated growth. Individual cells become larger in size, and multicellular organisms accumulate many cells through cell division.
Reproduction, or having the potential for reproduction: Does it contain sperm or egg cells, or some form or potential reproduction.
Response: Does it respond to stimuli?
Does it have the potential to evolve or adapt to an environment?

Aside from those qualities that define life, one could ask the question as to whether it could survive without a host.
With current technology, it is estimated that a fetus could survive without the host at between 22 to 23 weeks

So, no matter how a person feels about it, if these parameters are met and it was done intentionally, then we either need to change our laws about punishing those who take human life, or change our definition of life, or enforce the law.
Just my thoughts.
 
Abortion on Demand, No Apologies, No Excuses Necessary. Women, Your Body, Your Choice. Choose to be Free.

I would put that on my tombstone, except I'm not having one. Women you will never be equal and uncontrolled by male society until your body is your own, not subject to the opinions of others. You have nothing to lose but your chains.

Well, holly, what did you expect when you posted this?

ps
I admit to not having read the story. The details don't matter to me. It's not my business.
 
hollydolly said:
She lied to a nurse practitioner from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) during a phone call 12 days later, convincing them she was just seven weeks pregnant.
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prison only make her a martyr.
But this example will only let others know you can still lie and get the drugs you need to "solve" your issue.....i think sooner or later she will have some mental issues about what she did.

This is the reality we are and will see ..... patients often lied if in person ........but now with virtual visits etc ..... prescribing parties are relying on the honor system when the patients lives can be at stake......
sooner or later we will see fall out from that.......people that should not take certain medications etc

everything from Birth control to male enhancement drugs......... an exam can save many complications.......knowing if they are in good health to take some medications.
.but nope people are telling whatever to those who can prescribe... i guess the fact a patient lied lets them off the hook liability wise.
A few deaths or serious complications no big deal.... i guess ........

complications and many things could have gone wrong including her death ...
at regular strength the pills may not have even induced a miscarriage and instead could have only damaged baby and or mother.

i listened to an undercover tape............ of a "clinic" here in the states.........that provided this service for late term the price $$ went up for every week along you were..... they sent a person to a cheap motel told them to take pills as directed........ and if they have any issue call ONLY the clinic not 911 sit in bathroom and make sure door is unlocked so whomever clinic sends could get in.....

IMO Abortion is a personal choice but is NOT a substitute for Birth control or being responsible
Even the Plan B pill now over the counter ........... details matter.... it states right on the box ....... its effectiveness drops (10% drop for each ten pounds over the standard weight) for any patient that is over 150 lbs ( only about 85 % for 150 and under.)...... but at $55 dollars a pop who cares if it only gave false security. i would like to see the long term outcomes for the MANY over the weight indicated ...
 
Pepper said:
Abortion on Demand, No Apologies, No Excuses Necessary. Women, Your Body, Your Choice. Choose to be Free.

I would put that on my tombstone, except I'm not having one. Women you will never be equal and uncontrolled by male society until your body is your own, not subject to the opinions of others. You have nothing to lose but your chains.

Well, holly, what did you expect when you posted this?

ps
I admit to not having read the story. The details don't matter to me. It's not my business.
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Welll , firstlyI ''expected'' people to discuss the rights and wrongs of this ...Secondly and really FIRSTLY..I expected those with an opinion to READ the article before commenting!!
 
I don't blame you Holly, you love to discuss things, and you always bring up many topics of great interest.

I apologize but I'm just too old to fight the good fight and can't leave the world without that message, which I will parrot endlessly. Sorry.
 
Pepper said:
I don't blame you Holly, you love to discuss things, and you always bring up many topics of great interest.

I apologize but I'm just too old to fight the good fight and can't leave the world without that message, which I will parrot endlessly. Sorry.
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No need to apologise but thank you. I'm not looking for people to fall out over this because everyone's opinions will differ, and that's what we should all respect... but I am interested in people's opinions as to whether she did wrong in the first instance.. and secondly if the punishment was the right one given by the courts.. or could there have been a alternative way to deal with it!
 
hollydolly said:
No need to apologise but thank you. I'm not looking for people to fall out over this because everyone's opinions will differ, and that's what we should all respect... but I am interestesd in people's opinions as to whether she did wrong in the first instance.. and secondly if the punishment was the right one given by the courts.. or could there have been a alternative way to deal with it!
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but I am interestesd in people's opinions
And it shows! Love your threads!
 
I don't really want to get to deeply into this, but I do want to say that my daughter was born a preemie but 100% healthy except for low birth weight, at 34 weeks. Went to the ER.... doc asked how far I was and I said 34 weeks. He said "that baby's definitely ready to be born" and the rest is a history started 38 years ago. I don't personally consider it "abortion" when the baby would easily survive outside of the womb, so my feelings about "choice" don't come into play at this late stage.

I do think this was criminal. Do I think jail time was appropriate? Probably not, but some kind of punishment like a lot of community service would have been suitable.
 
Absolutely not okay to sentence her to prison. Imagine the consequences, women who have stillborns would all wind up being suspected of doing it intentionally and have to defend themselves. What if the pregnant mother fell down, took a drink of alcohol, did drugs, didn't take prescribed prenatal vitamins, etc. -- are all women going to lose their rights to their own bodies when they are pregnant? It is too bad and very sad for the baby, but it was still a part of the mother's body. Plenty of babies cause their mothers' deaths, should the babies be jailed for murder?

I had a coworker who killed her twin in the womb close to term by wrapping her umbilical cord around her neck. Is she guilty of manslaughter? It was funny when she came back to the office after taking a lie detector test to get a Top Secret clearance, she told us she inexplicably failed on the major crime question. I told her it was because she murdered her sister! She was not amused, 'I wasn't even born yet!'.
 
hollydolly said:
Does anyone think by imprisoning her, a message is being sent to other women that this will not be accepted....?
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People seldom "get" the message, especially when under emotional duress.

hollydolly said:
the Royal College of Midwives and other health bodies had urged for a non-custodial sentence
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A non-custodial sentence would suffice, save the expensive prison accommodations for the violent offenders.
 
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I thought the same thing, CallMeKate. I think that by that point, it is a baby, or "almost a baby," and abortion is pretty much tantamount to murder. But prison doesn't seem appropriate to me. I think community service would be a more fitting punishment. And she does have to live with the guilt of what she did, for the rest of her life.

This is a slippery slope kind of issue. If it is punishable by imprisonment, where do we draw the line? Does it get earlier and earlier? One of our states, I think it is Texas, doesn't allow abortion now after 6 weeks! Imposing prison sentences (instead of counseling and help) will just make the prison population get larger all the time. It will not stop abortion; such legislation never does. Women who are desperate for any reason will just find a way to circumvent the law.

One thing strikes me about this: I doubt that any woman would carry a fetus almost to term and then just decide to abort it, for trivial reasons. I'd be curious to know what this woman said was her reason for carrying it so long before aborting. There's got to be more to the story.
 
It's a very hot button political issue. There's too much emotion around it and too little logic IMO. Read bobcat48's post for some applicable logic.

Now, what do I think? This was a viable baby who could live outside the womb on its own as others have shown. She murdered her own child.

Should she be jailed? We have limited information but going on what I can see, yes.

Late term abortion prosecution should be handled on a case by case basis by a judge or jury. There should be leeway in the law because there could be circumstances that call for a lesser sentence or no sentence, just as there are when someone murders a child or an adult. The court probably didn't believe a 44 yr. old woman was too embarrassed to see a doctor and neither do I.

Age is another consideration. I do think this woman deserved the sentence she got but if she had been a lot younger instead of 44 I might not think she should go to jail. In that case a lot of counseling and some appropriate community service could be very helpful.

Here's a link to state-by-state abortion laws in the US.

https://states.guttmacher.org/polic...aNiwaXMMK3vrmMNGA2JxJKGIUMQFcRPhoC2GIQAvD_BwE
 
Pepper said:
Abortion on Demand, No Apologies, No Excuses Necessary. Women, Your Body, Your Choice. Choose to be Free.

I would put that on my tombstone, except I'm not having one. Women you will never be equal and uncontrolled by male society until your body is your own, not subject to the opinions of others. You have nothing to lose but your chains.

Well, holly, what did you expect when you posted this?

ps
I admit to not having read the story. The details don't matter to me. It's not my business.
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I agree. I'm completely pro-choice and it's nobody's business but the woman and her doctor. I do believe all forms of birth control should be readily available to all women, and ideally, abortions should be performed as early as possible.
Stay out of people's doctor's offices and bedrooms.
 
She knew she was pregnant by another man... she moved back in with her estranged partner and wanted to hide the pregnancy from him... The prosecution said the woman, , made a number of internet searches between February and May 2020, including "how to hide a pregnancy bump", "how to have an abortion without going to the doctor" and "how to lose a baby at six months".


That means she allowed at least 4 months of knowing she was pregnant and wanting to abort it, before she took action at the eleventh hour..
 

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