Oregon becomes the first state to decriminalize hard drugs like cocaine and heroin

So which one of you guy is going to start a thread about the Criminal Justice System?

The limitations of the courts to deal with substance abuse and the abuses in the Dept of Corrections.

I have a more than adequate knowledge of how these systems operate, but I'm not sure I have the tenacity
to discuss how inadequate they are.
 

We disagree, I see it as a step up and addressing the problem of addiction as opposed to making people suffer for their bad choices.

I found Amsterdam to be a delightful place myself.

So are you saying that people who want to do drugs don't want to work for an honest living?
You're insane! Amsterdam is a delightful place?! By the way people that do drugs do not want to work. They tolerate work to support their addiction until the addiction take precedence over work.
 

It depends on whether you think it's more useful to put people who are in possession of small amounts of controlled substances in jail or in treatment programs.

To me I think the punishment does fit the crime. It also reduces the cost of dealing with those with substance abuse issues by taking out the court and jail costs. Others disagree with me, but it appears that a majority of those who voted on the measure in Oregon agree with me.
Oregon is where one goes to to lay in their own urine and declare everyone else is a fascist.
 
i dunno know, you get locked up without funds your going to be in trouble. Asst DA's are only concerned on conviction:innocent or guilty.
Once in prison, you there-the guilt of the inmate has been decided-your going to stay there until your release date.
Innocence or guilt was decided in the courts- "We don't want to hear about it.
no one does

You want to attend college courses, you want AA/ NA Classes, you want some type of job training-
taxpapers will not accept this is necessary- we want you locked away, away from nothing more.
 
It's no longer a felony, but a misdemeanor.
Actually, decriminalizing removes something from the criminal law area completely and puts it in the civil law arena. Thus it does not become a misdemeanor, which is still criminal law, but becomes a civil infraction, like a traffic ticket or a citation for having too much junk in your yard. Also, decriminalization only applies to possession for personal use, and not to those who deal drugs. Way too many people, IMHO, have landed in jail for possession of small quantities of substances.

One of the good things about making it a civil infraction is that an ancient drug bust doesn't end up costing someone a professional license or a job years later.
 
i dunno know, you get locked up without funds your going to be in trouble. Asst DA's are only concerned on conviction:innocent or guilty.
Once in prison, you there-the guilt of the inmate has been decided-your going to stay there until your release date.
Innocence or guilt was decided in the courts- "We don't want to hear about it.
no one does

You want to attend college courses, you want AA/ NA Classes, you want some type of job training-
taxpapers will not accept this is necessary- we want you locked away, away from nothing more.
This very much depends on the state. Many states offer education, treatment, etc. to inmates and some even earn college degrees while there.
 
You're insane! Amsterdam is a delightful place?! By the way people that do drugs do not want to work. They tolerate work to support their addiction until the addiction take precedence over work.

Must you denigrate someone because they disagree with you? There are so many other ways to tell someone that you disagree other than saying they are insane.

Yes, I did find Amsterdam to be delightful. I was only there for three days but we did get all over the city and I don't recall it being unpleasant anywhere. Paris on the other hand was a different story, but that's not relevant here.

I think you've bought into the story that the only people who use drugs are addicts or future addicts. I have known many people who love their work and love their recreational drug time. You might not have run into many yourself, but you could say you were unaware of any people who were able to successfully use drugs and who still loved their jobs or at least enjoyed working and didn't only do it so they could afford drugs.

I do agree that using drugs is a slippery slope for some people and that some people would be better off not using drugs. However when drugs lose their illegal status I think it provides a better environment for discussing responsible drug use, how to realize when your drug use is becoming a problem and for providing help for those who are having problems with drugs.
 
If we substitute the word "alcohol" for "drugs," every word said in this thread so far could still apply.

There are people who have let alcohol take over their entire lives, live only for the next drink, and many have sacrificed their life, their health, their job, their family and friends, for their addiction.

There are people who consider alcohol a tool of the Devil, and will not go near it. Or don't use it because they have seen other lives ruined by it. Or are allergic, or just don't like it. When this country had Prohibition, people were locked up for using it. (Sound familiar?)

Most people use it in moderation, for recreational use, relaxation, socialization, etc. It usually does no harm, as long as they refrain from driving, and might be a positive element of life. Obviously, the majority of people have felt that way about it since Biblical times.

So, jerryold, do you feel that users of alcohol should all be locked up indiscriminately? Probably not. Does looking at it that way change your slant on the drug question a little? Do you think the criminal justice system should take measures to stop any and all use of alcohol? And if someone is locked up for that reason, that he has no rights?
 
fmdog, Amsterdam is a tourist destination for many young adults. (Or was, before Covid, when people still traveled.) I thought it was a fascinating city back in the 1950's when I visited there; obviously, it could be very different now. But my grandson and his girlfriend were there a couple of years ago, and they liked the city a lot. And they are NOT drug users.

You sound bitter about Amsterdam, fmdog. Did you have a bad experience there?
 
`Alcohol makes the mind all fuzzy,
Sunny, how are you going to keep alcohol (impaired drivers) off the road?
'A couple of beers with the guys,' turns into vehicular homicides.
Alcohol triggers domestic violence

Drugs-economics is a major problem, if not the major problem with substance abuse,.
A drug head will do just about anything to obtain funds for drugs-burglary, robbery...

Substance abuse is not a problem that law enforcement or the judicial system can counter: So what do we do?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunny Says:
"Most people use it in moderation, for recreational use, relaxation, socialization, etc. It usually does no harm, as long as they refrain from driving, and might be a positive element of life. "

Moderation? Moderation? what is that?
Industrial towns build a facility, there is real estate scramble to get bars built.
Few adult males can gauge their alcohol content before they get behind a wheel.
Alcohol is a ritualized male behavior, I cannot speak for the females.
 
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`Alcohol makes the mind all fuzzy,
Sunny, how are you going to keep alcohol (impaired drivers) off the road?
'A couple of beers with the guys,' turns into vehicular homicides.
Alcohol triggers domestic violence

Drugs-economics is a major problem, if not the major problem with substance abuse,.
A drug head will do just about anything to obtain funds for drugs-burglary, robbery...

Substance abuse is not a problem that law enforcement or the judicial system can counter: So what do we do?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunny Says:
"Most people use it in moderation, for recreational use, relaxation, socialization, etc. It usually does no harm, as long as they refrain from driving, and might be a positive element of life. "

Moderation? Moderation? what is that?
Industrial towns build a facility, there is real estate scramble to get bars built.
Few adult males can gauge their alcohol content before they get behind a wheel.
Alcohol is a ritualized male behavior, I cannot speak for the females.
Wow -- you really have taken a hard line on alcohol.

I disagree, which of course matters not at all, but the US tried prohibition and it didn't help at all, but only got organized crime into the mix. Which is a lot of the problem with drugs -- the crime that surrounds their use.
 
I suppose I should mention I have close to thirty years of working in the substance abuse field.


I know virtually nothing about those that can drink alcohol and curtail their drinking before it impairs their
judgement.
The same with drugs, I've not encounter any that understand moderation.

I've only seen the 'mean parts' of substance abuse; consequently, my opinion is biased.

I view substance abuse as a destroyer of all that is decent.
 
@jerry old
You see the folks who come to you voluntarily to seek help, or are court-ordered, which probably means they wouldn't seek help on their own. Right?

Most people I've ever known can handle their liquor and stop/slow down before getting drunk. They pace themselves.

Respect is due to you for working in the field. Thank you.
 
A ditty of great import

In the 1960's, the Auto Manufactures were concerned about absenteeism cutting into their profit margin.
The United Auto Workers Union were also concerned with this problem.
Both parties knew substance abuse was the primary problem with absenteeism SO
they hammered out a contract that covered sixty days a year (thirty days at a time) for hospitalization
for MENTAL/ EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS.
At that time substance abuse was considered an emotional problem:
'Their screwing up their lives with drugs and alcohol, they gott'a be crazy right?
So, we will put them in the crazy house."

True, the greater society had considered drunks as being 'not normal.'
We do not have a word for 'not normal,' so we call them crazy.

Other unions followed the UAW to obtain contracts for hospitalization for substance abuse; as well
as non-union workers that had company paid hospitalization.
The only facilities available for substance abuse were: "Put them in a crazy house.'

Hospitalization was the engine that drove our treatment of substance abuse
Without funds the treatment of substance abuse problem may have found a

better alternative BUT, it was so profitable.
The money from hospitalization was and is the methods we used/ and still us to treat substance abuse.
It does not work.
 
"Moderation? Moderation? what is that?"

Jerry, here's an example. This afternoon, I met a friend (female) at our local restaurant, and we each ordered one glass of wine. That's it. We sat sipping our one glass each for nearly two hours! We scheduled our meeting primarily to enjoy our conversation with each other; the wine was a pleasant extra, but definitely not the main focus. In fact, we started out saying, "Let's get together for some wine or coffee, it;s been a long time since we had a chat."

Just pointing all this out because I think it is a perfect example of moderate enjoyment of alcohol.
 
Hospitalization was the engine that drove our treatment of substance abuse
Without funds the treatment of substance abuse problem may have found a

better alternative BUT, it was so profitable.
The money from hospitalization was and is the methods we used/ and still us to treat substance abuse.
It does not work.
What does work?
 
I know a lot more people who use alcohol in moderation than I've ever known people who abuse it.
I do as well, but I would assume that the same goes for some forms of the so-ca;;ed "drugs". In my particular case, it's the hypocrisy of alcohol users ( nor necessarily abusers) who constantly complain about the same (non abusers) who partake of marijuana as a recreational outlet?

I use neither but I can sympathize with the casual drug user when they are constantly berated by the same level of alcohol users.

If you need mind-altering substances, they're all in the same boat - -take your choice. If you don't, then you drink coffee or tea and eat powdered donuts.😀
 
If you need mind-altering substances, they're all in the same boat - -take your choice. If you don't, then you drink coffee or tea and eat powdered donuts.😀

Caffeine is a mind altering substance and sugar is as well. They're just both relatively safe and very socially acceptable.
 


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