Pfizer knew and lied

If the vaccine worked, the unvaccinated couldn't possibly make anyone sick. (How dare anyone use such logic!)
According to best scientific studies the Flu vaccines are around 50% effective, some years more, some less (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm). I have known that for years and always get the shot, cutting my chances of getting the Flu in half are worth it to me.

The logic is that unvaccinated people are twice as likely to get the Flu and pass it along. Unvaccinated also get sick and spread the Flu, just half as often.
 

Not denialism at all. Certain organizations & individuals stand a lot to lose if the truth comes out which one day it will.

Many have been hurt not only by vaccine mandates, but from the lockdowns as well. Families were seperated from loved ones when they shouldn't have been. Children have been set back in their education, social development & have been taught to fear. Our economies are pretty much messed up & show no true signs of getting better despite what we hear.

IMO, there are still people who won't let it go & move on.
 
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Yes, but nothing has changed. I cited that paper as it provides a good quotable summary and was well done and peer reviewed.

Do you know of any science based peer reviewed studies that show otherwise? If so I'd be interested and would read them. I am open to changing my mind, if there is data and science to change it, but I have found none.

Here are some more up to date studies showing the same thing, risks from the vaccine are quite low, lower than the benefits.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html#:~:text=During this time, VAERS received,, autopsy, and medical records.

Adverse Events Following Immunization (AEFIs) for COVID-19 in Ontario: December 13, 2020 to January 15, 2023
https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-aefi-report.pdf?sc_lang=en

Evaluation of mortality attributable to SARS-CoV-2 vaccine administration using national level data from Qatar
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35653-z
View attachment 265421
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status?country=~50+
I will read these tomorrow.

My point is that we don't know what the long term dangers of the vaccines are. There are no studies - but there are many sudden unexplained deaths of young people.

Why should young people have been forced to get them? Isn't their health important too?
 
According to best scientific studies the Flu vaccines are around 50% effective, some years more, some less (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm). I have known that for years and always get the shot, cutting my chances of getting the Flu in half are worth it to me.

The logic is that unvaccinated people are twice as likely to get the Flu and pass it along. Unvaccinated also get sick and spread the
Flu, just half as often.

If that's true, I'm a living, breathing miracle. Never had a flu shot, had the flu once - 40 years ago & never since.
 
I'm puzzled as to how many people are getting flu like symptoms that has taken the vaccine... I know several people. I always say people do what is best for them. The vaccine wasn't best for me. I took the flu shot once and vowed never to take it again.. that was over 30+ years ago and I thank my heavenly father, have not had the flu. The flu shot knocked me on my $#@.... I got very sick.

The vaccine was pushed wayyyy too hard...people losing their jobs for not taking it, etc.. I understand CDC, WHO, EFG did what they felt was best at the time. But now some people are getting very sick. Is it from the vaccine? I saw a very interesting Youtube video about a doctor breaking it all down regarding the vaccine. In a nutshell, he was saying one size doesn't fit all. Which makes sense.
 
I will read these tomorrow.

My point is that we don't know what the long term dangers of the vaccines are. There are no studies - but there are many sudden unexplained deaths of young people.

Why should young people have been forced to get them? Isn't their health important too?
Most young people (and older adults) have a healthy immune system. Why try to fix what's not broken...jmo.
 
I will read these tomorrow.

My point is that we don't know what the long term dangers of the vaccines are. There are no studies - but there are many sudden unexplained deaths of young people.

Why should young people have been forced to get them? Isn't their health important too?
Their health was not nearly as important as the billions of dollars in profit that was at stake.
 
Flu, just half as often.

If that's true, I'm a living, breathing miracle. Never had a flu shot, had the flu once - 40 years ago & never since.
The only year in recent decades that I didn't get the flu shot, I not only got the flu, but it led to pneumonia, so what the heck, I remember not to forget to take it.
Shows a part of the range of outcomes or experiences.

@win231 you are likely one of the lucky ones with a strong immune system, against Flu anyway. And @Pepper you may not be. In both of your cases this is just guessing, it could as easily just be random chance.

We all tend to give a lot of value to our own experiences and/or those of others we know. It's human nature. However, when looking at things like the Flu and Covid that doesn't work very well, to really understand you need to be looking at large population level statistics.
 
I still feel that instead of fighting about all this we should be trying to understand this illness better. I would personally like to know why a person like David has not gotten ill, but a person like M got ill and died. David is much older…and while M’s exposure was undoubtably higher as a hospital cna she had no known underlying conditions. Untill we get a handle on that we will continue to be running blind. When we started defunding our public health institutions back in the 80’s and 90’s we limited their abilities to assist in research of disease. Too bad for us all.
 
Unfortunately we didn't get the chance to wait 5-8 years to test. We were thunderstruck with a vicious vengeance and left us all scrambling for some kind of defense.
Most seem to forget the deaths in nursing homes before we even know the symptoms let alone any kind of protection.
I understand that, but considering it normally takes 5 -8 years to prove or approve a new vaccine and we got this one through in 10 months, it should put us on alert that since the drug was never fully approved, it is very possible that the vaccine may or may not be 100% or less effective and not without risks.

This is the reasoning behind why each person should be permitted to decide for him or herself if they wish to chance it. Wouldn't you agree?

I think if we had the time that it takes to fully approve the vaccine, making it mandatory would have more teeth to it. But telling people that they must take the vaccine or lose your job, along with the risks involved on chemicals being injected into the body is kind of fool-hearted.

I would also think that if I was a government worker and was forced to be vaccinated with this vaccine and I had a stroke, heart attack or even died, because I was forced to take it, the government should be liable. I agree, we have a choice, take the vaccine and keep your job. Turn down the vaccine and you will be fired. That's some choice.
 
cjonesrgb02012023.jpg
 
I know that no one post here will change anyone's minds. But, we all have a different perspective.
Let's agree to that.
Found this in Time magazine, and it seemed very appropriate for this thread. The first demonstrates the power of one's view, the next debates which view is the true one.

round circle square.jpgdifference of opinion.jpg
 
Found this in Time magazine, and it seemed very appropriate for this thread. The first demonstrates the power of one's view, the next debates which view is the true one.
Reminds me of a favorite quote:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H. L. Mencken

And social media isn't helping.
I know that no one post here will change anyone's minds.
Don't be too sure of that. Reading and researching posts here did change my mind about mask wearing. I thought that masks would both protect well people from getting sick and sick people from spreading. After a couple of people posted some pretty good links to studies I now believe that while masks can stop the sick from spreading viruses, I no longer believe they protect well people wearing them. As a result I now try to mask whenever I am sick and going out, Covid or any cold or flu. Sometimes even after an exposure when I feel fine. However if not required I don't mask when I am well and pretty sure I'm staying that way.

A relatively minor thing, but it was a mind change. We should all be open to it.
 
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I've never had a Shingles, Covid or Flu vaccine. Not interested in them.
I had Singles 40 years ago, Flu 39 years ago, Covid 2 months ago.
I'm not an "Anti Vaxxer." I'm anti useless, possibly unsafe vaxxer.
Interesting. If you served in the military (my case 5 years Navy) were you allowed to refuse vaccination?
 
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I am not anti-vax. I am against forcing people to get vaccinated. Everyone should be free to make their own health decisions.
I agree, however there can be times when one's decisions impact others. That makes it a bit hard to sort out. I mostly side with freedom of individual choice. Better to provide good solid data showing people why they should get vaccinated than to force. I don't think our government did a good job of that with the Covid thing, if they had I believe more would have decided to get vaccinated, not everyone, but more.

We have pretty much accepted the requirement to wear seat belts in cars and helmets on motorcycles, and those are things that mostly protect the wearer. However, no one worries about the long term risks of those things...
 
I still feel that instead of fighting about all this we should be trying to understand this illness better. I would personally like to know why a person like David has not gotten ill, but a person like M got ill and died. David is much older…and while M’s exposure was undoubtably higher as a hospital cna she had no known underlying conditions. Untill we get a handle on that we will continue to be running blind. When we started defunding our public health institutions back in the 80’s and 90’s we limited their abilities to assist in research of disease. Too bad for us all.
Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever understand. Maybe years from now but not now. However, the truth is in front of use but we are too blinded to see...jmo.
 
According to best scientific studies the Flu vaccines are around 50% effective, some years more, some less (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm). I have known that for years and always get the shot, cutting my chances of getting the Flu in half are worth it to me.

The logic is that unvaccinated people are twice as likely to get the Flu and pass it along. Unvaccinated also get sick and spread the Flu, just half as often.
Haven't had a flu vaccine in over 30 years. Never had the flu. Maybe, just maybe I have a strong immune system. Had the flu vaccine over 30 years ago..that was enough for me... got very sick to put it mildly.
 
Just curious. Are you Covid anti-vaxers also opposed to the Shingles vaccine?

I am opposed to the toxic petro-chemical vaccinations of all kinds and I never get one, regardless of their hypothetical purposes.
It is quite sad that so many are needlessly forced into babies and children, often resulting in early deaths and/or life long disabilities.

I now believe that while masks can stop the sick from spreading viruses, I no longer believe they protect well people wearing them.
As a result I now try to mask whenever I am sick and going out, Covid or any cold or flu.

Logically, and presuming that a virus exists, a mask would not stop a virus in either direction.

We have pretty much accepted the requirement to wear seat belts in cars and helmets on motorcycles, and those are things that mostly protect the wearer. However, no one worries about the long term risks of those things.

A hangman's noose would be a better comparison to the clot shots.
Thus if a hangman's noose was required instead of a seat belt, would you wear one and recommend it to others? 🤔

It is ironic that, in your search for the truth, you keep quoting the CDC, that is funded and directed by the vaccination corporations.

What sources do you believe are the best for understanding these issues?

My sources are based on my experience, logic, self determination and truthfulness.
Anything that doesn't make sense is not credible. Any sources that foster and promote BS are not credible.
Any sources that have a history of lying to the public like the CDC and their peer reviewed articles have done are not credible.
Anyone who believes a mask prevents transmission of a virus is not thinking clearly and unfortunately does not see the truth yet.

mosquitos***.JPG
 
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Logically, and presuming that a virus exists, a mask would not stop a virus in either direction.
The masks don't filter out individual viruses, that is why they don't much help the healthy. However they do filter out or remove some aerosols and disperse the breath of a sick person removing some virus and dispersing other. To get Covid and most viruses we have to be exposed to a lot, dispersing the breath of an ill person reduces that risk. It's the reason the plexiglas barriers work.
It is ironic that, in your search for the truth, you keep quoting the CDC, that is funded and directed by the vaccination corporations.
CDC is primarily funded by Congress, our taxes mostly. The Pharmaceutical companies pay into that, but so do we and a lot of others. The CDC does accept gifts, both directly and through the CDC Foundation. In 2021 out of a budget of $7.8 billion these gifts only represented about $21 million, 0.2% of their budget. Some of these gifts did come from Pharmaceutical companies. see https://www.cdc.gov/partners/gift-funding.html#:~:text=The main source of CDC,determined by the U.S. Congress.

I have a healthy skepticism of what the CDC says, particularly interpretations and recommendations that are not backed up by data. I think they are too politically influenced and in many ways just another government bureaucracy. However they are one of the best repositories for health data. And some of what I cite are peer reviewed papers, not written by CDC employees that are posted on their website. And I do not only cite CDC or papers on the CDC website. I have cited many other sources, but usually only when I believe what they are saying is databased and peer reviewed.

What sources do you believe are the best for understanding these issues?
 

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