Pfizer scientists off the record: Natural immunity better than vaccine.

I'll stick with the two initial shots and the booster shot.

The problem with natural immunity is that one has to risk getting seriously ill to get that immunity, (assuming it is that much better than vaccine immunity).

Note the graph below where people with no vaccine have a higher risk of death from Covid. booster.jpg
 

I'll stick with the two initial shots and the booster shot.

The problem with natural immunity is that one has to risk getting seriously ill to get that immunity, (assuming it is that much better than vaccine immunity).

Note the graph below where people with no vaccine have a higher risk of death from Covid.

I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies. You're correct ...there's too much risk.

My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does.


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1- Get the shots.
(You've probably already had the mumps/measles/rubella/polio/shingles/pneumonia,,,etc. over time.)
2- If you get Covid it may be milder and not as deadly.
3. You may end up with natural immunity.
4. If you don't get Covid, great!
5. You still have a valid shot card to show around.
(You can get a cool laminated wallet size for $.39 at Staples.)
6. You may be protecting others including your children.
7. Wear your mask, Wash your hands. Stay out of crowds. Good common sense.
8. Your hay fever may be less taxing and you're not breathing in all that foul polluted air.

Or is that near to impossible task to display your shot card that gets you?
Think of it nothing more than you would showing your driver's license, and how hard is that?
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 

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Sorry lost the original you can remove your above 'like' now.

Your original 'lost' post #28 that only said "Try this again." is quoted in #29 so you'll be happy to know it's not lost, lol.

Your original "Try this again." post is what I 'laughed emojie' reacted to and replied to ....not your edited version to which I'd already provided an answer for in a reply to another in post #27 that it appears you must have missed. If you'd read through a thread rather than doing drive by snark, it would save you time in having to delete and rewrite your posts.

In response to your edited post #28: (copied and pasted from my answer from post #27)

"I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies. You're correct ...there's too much risk, My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."​
Or is that near to impossible task to display your shot card that gets you?
Think of it nothing more than you would showing your driver's license, and how hard is that.

It's just as easy to produce an antibody test showing protection as it is to produce a vaccine card.


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Fact #1 : Project Veritas Videos Are Always Misleading

It is a hallmark of Project Veritas videos that they are secretly recorded, and then heavily edited to cast a misleading angle in the story, or to push misinformation. In other words – propaganda.

You can watch the video they have been sharing, which we added a Misleading overlay to prevent abuse, to see for yourself.

You could find yourself agreeing with them that they “exposed” Nick Karl, but I will show you why it’s just a sleight of hand and why the video is not only misleading, it doesn’t change anything.


Fact #2 : The Project Veritas Video Was Heavily Edited

The viral video shows Nick Karl (Nicholas Karl) dining with a lady (from Project Veritas) in a social setting, saying :

When somebody is naturally immune, like, they got COVID, they probably have better, like, not better, but more antibodies against the virus.

So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination.


Wow, that sounds like an admission that natural immunity is better than vaccination, doesn’t it?

However, Project Veritas edited this part out of the original Nick Karl video :

Because what the vaccine is – is, like I said, that protein – that’s just on the outside. So it’s just one antibody against one specific part of the virus.

When you actually get the virus, you’re going to start producing antibodies against, like, multiple pieces of virus and not only just like that outside portion, like the inside portion, the actual virus.


So you have to ask yourself – what else did Project Veritas edit out of the full Nick Karl video?

No one knows because Project Veritas did not release the full, unedited video.


Fact #3 : Nothing Nick Said Are Secrets

At the end of the video, Project Veritas cuts to Nick saying, “I specifically have, like… Oh God, I signed NDAs against this.”

Sounds incriminating, but we don’t actually know what he’s referring to because … Project Veritas heavily-edited the video and removed all context!

But what may not seem obvious at first glance is this – whatever he said in that video is not exactly correct, and is really not a secret. It’s just basic virology and vaccine science, so why would he need to sign an NDA?

Could it be possible he wanted to impress the lady and cooked up that NDA story to make him sound more important? Who knows? Because Project Veritas edited out all context!



Fact #4 : Antibodies Are Produced Against EXTERNAL Virus Surfaces

Nick Karl was only partly correct in his explanation in that video.

When the immune system recognises the SARS-CoV-2 virus as foreign, it produces antibodies that attach to the virus surface, blocking it from infecting cells, and flagging it for macrophages to eat and destroy (phagocytosis).

Because the immune system can only see the EXTERNAL virus surfaces, it only produces antibodies against the EXTERNAL virus surfaces.

Your immune system doesn’t have x-ray vision, and thus cannot produce antibodies against the internal part of the virus – its RNA. Even if it could, the antibodies cannot penetrate the virus to attach to the RNA.


Fact #5 : More Antibodies Doesn’t Mean Better Immunity

Nick Karl is correct that your immune system will produce more antibodies because the SARS-CoV-2 virus offers a “complete” range of surfaces for different antibodies to be designed and produced.

However, having a wide range of antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 does not mean that the immunity is better. That’s why Nick actually said “not better, but more antibodies“.

In fact, inactivated virus vaccines like the Sinovac CoronaVac vaccine are LESS EFFECTIVE than mRNA vaccines, even though they offer the complete SARS-CoV-2 virus surface to the immune system.

Antibodies against envelope proteins, for example, may attach to the virus but not prevent it from infecting cells.

That’s why most COVID-19 vaccines target the spike protein that the virus uses to infect our cells. Their antibodies will attach to the spike proteins, physically preventing the virus from attaching to our cells.

We do not just want MORE antibodies, we want MORE antibodies of the RIGHT KIND.


Fact #6 : Natural Immunity Is NOT Robust


Irrespective of what Nick Karl may have said, and all the videos that Project Veritas may produce, they will not change the fact that natural immunity to COVID-19 is NOT robust.

On 10 May 2021, the WHO released a scientific brief on COVID-19 natural immunity, which points out that :

90-99% of infected individuals develop neutralising antibodies within 2-4 weeks of the infection.

1-10% of infected individuals do NOT develop neutralising antibodies at all.

Individuals with mild / asymptomatic infection produce LOWER antibodies than those with severe COVID-19.

Natural immunity appears to offer 80-90% protection against reinfection for up to 7 months, but only 50% for people over 65 years old.

Because reinfections (sometimes twice!) have been reported even in younger adults with natural immunity, the WHO and all major health authorities recommend that even people who survive COVID-19 should get vaccinated.



Fact #7 : Natural Immunity Is Risky

What Project Veritas does not mention is that for you to gain “natural immunity”, you must first put your life at risk by getting infected with COVID-19.

The risk of dying from COVID-19 ranges from 0.25% to 10%, depending on whether there is ready access to an ICU and ventilator. And even if you do survive, you may have to live with the long COVID.

Vaccines offer a safer way to attain immunity against COVID-19. They are essentially self-defence classes that teach our own immune system to identify and create antibodies against COVID-19.


Choosing to risk your life with a “natural” COVID-19 infection instead of a vaccine, is like refusing to undergo military training before going to battle.
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Fact #4 : Antibodies Are Produced Against EXTERNAL Virus Surfaces

Nick Karl was only partly correct in his explanation in that video.

When the immune system recognises the SARS-CoV-2 virus as foreign, it produces antibodies that attach to the virus surface, blocking it from infecting cells, and flagging it for macrophages to eat and destroy (phagocytosis).

Because the immune system can only see the EXTERNAL virus surfaces, it only produces antibodies against the EXTERNAL virus surfaces.

Your immune system doesn’t have x-ray vision, and thus cannot produce antibodies against the internal part of the virus – its RNA. Even if it could, the antibodies cannot penetrate the virus to attach to the RNA.


Fact #5 : More Antibodies Doesn’t Mean Better Immunity

Nick Karl is correct that your immune system will produce more antibodies because the SARS-CoV-2 virus offers a “complete” range of surfaces for different antibodies to be designed and produced.

However, having a wide range of antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 does not mean that the immunity is better. That’s why Nick actually said “not better, but more antibodies“.

In fact, inactivated virus vaccines like the Sinovac CoronaVac vaccine are LESS EFFECTIVE than mRNA vaccines, even though they offer the complete SARS-CoV-2 virus surface to the immune system.

Antibodies against envelope proteins, for example, may attach to the virus but not prevent it from infecting cells.

That’s why most COVID-19 vaccines target the spike protein that the virus uses to infect our cells. Their antibodies will attach to the spike proteins, physically preventing the virus from attaching to our cells.

We do not just want MORE antibodies, we want MORE antibodies of the RIGHT KIND.


Fact #6 : Natural Immunity Is NOT Robust


Irrespective of what Nick Karl may have said, and all the videos that Project Veritas may produce, they will not change the fact that natural immunity to COVID-19 is NOT robust.

On 10 May 2021, the WHO released a scientific brief on COVID-19 natural immunity, which points out that :

90-99% of infected individuals develop neutralising antibodies within 2-4 weeks of the infection.

1-10% of infected individuals do NOT develop neutralising antibodies at all.

Individuals with mild / asymptomatic infection produce LOWER antibodies than those with severe COVID-19.

Natural immunity appears to offer 80-90% protection against reinfection for up to 7 months, but only 50% for people over 65 years old.

Because reinfections (sometimes twice!) have been reported even in younger adults with natural immunity, the WHO and all major health authorities recommend that even people who survive COVID-19 should get vaccinated.

If you'll read the September Israeli study linked above that validates Nick Karl's direct words, you'll see that much has been learned from the info you posted from May. The pdf for the Israeli data showing the superiority of natural immunity out of a pool of 16,000 people is linked above. In the crises of a fast moving pandemic, information is quickly expanded upon or superseded.


Once again, as I stated in post #27:

"I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies. You're correct ...there's too much risk. My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."

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Real world data of 16,000 people followed in Israel show natural immunity is more protective than vaccines against the delta variant. Previously infected study subjects were ill prior to 28 Feb 2021 -- months before delta infections were common.

Here's a good explaination of the findings in laymen's terms. Link to thread with more information about the Israeli data. Here's the link to the study: full text pdf

Excerpts:

The results indicate that those who were previously infected by the novel coronavirus had developed better immunity and also faced reduced risk of reinfection, symptomatic disease and hospitalisation due to an infection of the delta variant – versus people who had received both doses of the Pfizer vaccine but hadn’t had COVID-19.​

“... those vaccinated are still at a 5.96-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection and at a 7.13-fold increased risk for symptomatic disease compared to those previously infected. SARS-CoV-2-naĂŻve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalisation compared to those who were previously infected.”​
An addition to the quoted findings above the study also found previous infection followed by one dose of the Pfizer vaccine to be very protective against delta.
Thank you Annie. That is certainly a better link than your original one. I will give it due consideration.
 
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If you'll read the September Israeli study linked above that validates Nick Karl's direct words, you'll see that much has been learned from the info you posted from May. The pdf for the Israeli data showing the superiority of natural immunity out of a pool of 16,000 people is linked above. In the crises of a fast moving pandemic, information is quickly expanded upon or superseded.


Once again, as I stated in post #27:

"I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies. You're correct ...there's too much risk. My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."

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I think that maybe the problem is one of logistics. As I indicated in my earlier post, I can easily get proof of my vaccination status. It will cost me nothing but how does a person who has had Covid prove the level of their antibodies? Do they submit proof of a previous Covid infection or an antibody test with the date, or is their word good enough for the man on the door or at the airline desk? My health record shows my two vaccination dates and the particular vaccine given. It is very clear cut.
 
If you'll read the September Israeli study linked above that validates Nick Karl's direct words, you'll see that much has been learned from the info you posted from May. The pdf for the Israeli data showing the superiority of natural immunity out of a pool of 16,000 people is linked above. In the crises of a fast moving pandemic, information is quickly expanded upon or superseded.


Once again, as I stated in post #27:

"I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies. You're correct ...there's too much risk. My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."

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I am a little oonfused. which link? what you are not getting Annie, is the video you are seeing is missing most of what is said, because Veritas edited out most of it. See below for a more valid study done in Israel.
 
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For Annie:

A new Israeli study has found the risk of heart inflammation as a result of Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine to be exceedingly low and eminently treatable.

A link has been seen in recent months between coronavirus vaccines using mRNA technology and very rare cases of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining around the heart).

Research conducted by Israel’s largest healthcare provider, Clalit, along with Beilinson Medical Center, published Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine, examined data on 2.5 million vaccinated Israelis, 94 percent of whom had received two doses of the vaccine.

You can read the rest by following this link:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/major...art-inflammation-after-covid-shots-is-minute/
 
I think that maybe the problem is one of logistics. As I indicated in my earlier post, I can easily get proof of my vaccination status. It will cost me nothing but how does a person who has had Covid prove the level of their antibodies? Do they submit proof of a previous Covid infection or an antibody test with the date, or is their word good enough for the man on the door or at the airline desk? My health record shows my two vaccination dates and the particular vaccine given. It is very clear cut.

It would certainly involve more work for the person who chooses to go that route. Antibody tests with a date would be optimal. There are a subset of people who don't develop antibodies to infection or vaccines. People with prior asymptomatic or very mild infection might not have adequate levels as well.
 
I am a little oonfused. which link? what you are not getting Annie, is the video you are seeing is missing most of what is said, because Veritas edited out most of it. See below for a more valid study done in Israel.

If you've been following the thread, you would've seen the link. It wasn't in answer to you, but my responses aren't all about you. You would also know the thread isn't about myocarditis as you posted in #38 ...that one came out of left field lol.

The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity is as good as--if not superior to--vaccine induced immunity. We have a biochemist who works with antibody testing stating it, and September 2021 data from 16,000 subjects corroborating his statements.

Knowing that, the real world logical progression is that previously infected individuals with lab results indicating adequate antibodies can forgo the vaccine if they wish and present their antibody results anywhere vaccine proof is required.

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My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."

Healthy people like me who are naturally immune to all viruses and who haven't been injected with the poisonous clot shots <-- should not be required to have a lab test nor any other type of draconian restrictions or mandates.
 
Healthy people like me who are naturally immune to all viruses and who haven't been injected with the poisonous clot shots <-- should not be required to have a lab test nor any other draconian restrictions or mandates.

Your leadoff is bizarre... :oops: I'm not interested in fantastical superpowers, but in science. If a business requires proof of immunity, then people should be able to show it by antibody test levels or vaccination cards.
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Healthy people like me who are naturally immune to all viruses and who haven't been injected with the poisonous clot shots <-- should not be required to have a lab test nor any other type of draconian restrictions or mandates.
Here's a quote from the poisonous clot shot reference above:

After the GENOCIDE: Will there be enough VACCINE SURVIVORS to rebuild civilization?
Hospitals are now being labeled the "killing fields" of the pandemic, with hospital doctors, nurses and administrators openly conspiring to mass murder those who are unvaccinated while covering up the deaths of those who took the jab:
Furthermore, it looks to me like the total extermination of human civilization is the goal of the globalists. They are preparing Earth for a post-human future. There is no plan for human beings to exist in any sustainable form whatsoever. This is why they don't care if they're risking the credibility of "science" or "medicine" or even government itself. If their own plans are successful, there won't be anyone left alive to matter.

I know a lot of people who work in those hospitals at a variety of jobs, and not a one is involved in an conspiracy to mass murder anybody, nor do they see any evidence that such a conspiracy is in play. IMO, the article is pure ignorant nonsense at best, and a intentional attempt to deceive people at the worst. Read the article yourself and make up your own mind.
 
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Then Nick Karl--the biochemist who works (possibly past tense now) at Pfizer’s Pearl River R&D facility-- has exceptional understanding of immunity and antibodies since he is/was developing testing for them for a major pharmaceutical company. Hope the fact that his LinkedIn profile is down doesn't mean Pfizer fired him for the conversation in the video, but I imagine he violated a non-disclosure agreement.

Nick Karl violated nothing. He said nothing of any significance!!!
 
If you've been following the thread, you would've seen the link. It wasn't in answer to you, but my responses aren't all about you. You would also know the thread isn't about myocarditis as you posted in #38 ...that one came out of left field lol.

The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity is as good as--if not superior to--vaccine induced immunity. We have a biochemist who works with antibody testing stating it, and September 2021 data from 16,000 subjects corroborating his statements.

Knowing that, the real world logical progression is that previously infected individuals with lab results indicating adequate antibodies can forgo the vaccine if they wish and present their antibody results anywhere vaccine proof is required.

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You are right, I do not fully read the anti-vaxxer threads because they are almost always the same ad give me a mal de tĂŞte!

you say “ natural immunity as good as--if not superior to having the vaccine” beurk! So, you would prefer people to enter death’s door to find that out??? Because that is what they have to do. That is complete madness !

You say you like science, then how do you not know and accept that anti bodies change over tme ? How?
 
You are right, I do not fully read the anti-vaxxer threads because they are almost always the same ad give me a mal de tĂŞte!

you say “ natural immunity as good as--if not superior to having the vaccine” beurk! So, you would prefer people to enter death’s door to find that out??? Because that is what they have to do. That is complete madness !

You say you like science, then how do you not know and accept that anti bodies change over tme ? How?

The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity's equivalence and possible superiority to vaccine acquired immunity ...not anti-vaxx. The Nick Karl video was a lead-in to that. If you had kept up with the thread, you would know that it isn't anti-vaxx and see that I have never advocated anyone go out and catch the virus for natural immunity. Arguing without reading is ignorant but by all means continue in that vein if you enjoy looking a fool. We have a saying down here about people who listen with their mouths instead of their ears.... that's a good descriptor for people who post in threads without reading them.

Again. The point is that people who have previously been infected and have current lab tests showing adequate antibody titers should be able to go or work anywhere that requires a vaccine record. I'm willing to keep typing that until you get it ...not that I have much hope for you... And measuring antibody titers encompasses antibody changes over time.
 
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The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity's equivalence and possible superiority to vaccine acquired immunity ...not anti-vaxx. The Nick Karl video was a lead-in to that. If you had kept up with the thread, you would know that it isn't anti-vaxx and see that I have never advocated anyone go out and catch the virus for natural immunity. Arguing without reading is ignorant but by all means continue in that vein if you enjoy looking a fool. We have a saying down here about people who listen with their mouths instead of their ears.... that's a good descriptor for people who post in threads without reading them.

Again. The point is that people who have previously been infected and have current lab tests showing adequate antibody titers should be able to go or work anywhere that requires a vaccine record. I'm willing to keep typing that until you get it ...not that I have much hope for you... And measuring antibody titers encompasses antibody changes over time.

Please do not trouble yourself further: you make no sense and are tying yourself in knots. Just because you want something to be, does not mean it will be! Great medical minds are working on this, and yours is not one of them.
La fin!
 
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For interested parties:

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety


Top 3 questions:

  1. Can I get an antibody test once I have received a COVID-19 vaccine?
  2. Will I test positive for COVID-19 once I have received the vaccine?
  3. What are some of the COVIDSafe things you need to remember if you plan to travel this year?

https://www.health.gov.au/news/top-...ng-positive-for-covid-19-and-covidsafe-travel

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That has nothing to do with convalescent immunity antibody titers.
 


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