Pledge of Allegiance - are you pro or con?

Timewise 60+ said:
The Pledge of Allegiance is a Pledge I still Honor. I think it should be required in schools as it introduces the kids, early on, to the concept of God and Country. When they become adults, they can choose to deny both God and Country, but until then they should be expected to do the Pledge when required.
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By forcing your religious ideation on others kind of makes a mockery of that "justice for all" part.
 

This country would be better served if it encouraged children to make pledges for behaviors within their understanding and control.

As someone said earlier in this thread, a pledge to be kind and respectful toward all would make more sense, and would be a useful daily reminder.
 
Many Americans today can RATIONALIZE anything! Kids need structure, they must go to school, in school they will be forced to learn many things. Exposure to patriotism and religion is traditionally part of that exposure.
 
That cartoon reminded me of the famous quote about defending to the death anyone's right to utter his beliefs, whether you agree with them or not. I looked it up, and found this:

“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” is said to have come from Voltaire. It is not from Voltaire, the 18th-century philosopher, but it was a paraphrase from a biographer named Evelyn Beatrice Hall of what she thought Voltaire was thinking.

So, the veteran could have been wounded defending anyone's right to say anything (or not to) in this country. And to me, that is the meaning of liberty, not forcing children to mindlessly parrot patriotic/religious sentiments, which for most of them, mean nothing anyway.

And religous beliefs do not belong in a public school. The Pledge was much less offensive before that "under God" business was added. I also have to wonder why public officials are sworn in with their hand on the Bible. Where did that come from? And why is "In God we trust" on the money? For a secular country, where religion is considered a private matter and conveys no governmental authority, we do seem to have a lot of smug "religious" moralizing seeping in.
 
Sunny said:
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So, the veteran could have been wounded defending anyone's right to say anything (or not to) in this country. And to me, that is the meaning of liberty, not forcing children to mindlessly parrot patriotic/religious sentiments, which for most of them, mean nothing anyway.

And religous beliefs do not belong in a public school. The Pledge was much less offensive before that "under God" business was added. I also have to wonder why public officials are sworn in with their hand on the Bible. Where did that come from? And why is "In God we trust" on the money? For a secular country, where religion is considered a private matter and conveys no governmental authority, we do seem to have a lot of smug "religious" moralizing seeping in.
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You need to read up on American History! References to 'God' are all over the buildings and monuments in our country. You are on the outside looking in wondering where all this "God" stuff came from. It was part of the foundation in forming our nation. Our founders purposely left off which God. But references to God none the less was frequently used...
 
Sunny said:
That cartoon reminded me of the famous quote about defending to the death anyone's right to utter his beliefs, whether you agree with them or not. I looked it up, and found this:

“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
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It's sad that you don't take those words to heart when responding to other people's posts.
 
I believe in the United States of America, as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.

— William Tyler Page, The American's Creed
 
Aunt Bea said:
It's sad that you don't take those words to heart when responding to other people's posts.
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What is that based on, Aunt Bea? When have I ever said that anyone doesn't have the right to express their ideas, here or anywhere else? That doesn't mean I have to agree with them; whether I agree or not is irrelevant.
 
Maybe we should take out the crap about god and instead of just 'republic', make it 'democratic republic'.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Democratic Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."​

A lot of people these days don't seem to value our democracy — or our Constitution for that matter, other than the second half of the 2nd Amendment. Our country is defined by our Constitution.
 
oldman said:
Dad told us one time that whenever we heard the National Anthem being played or sung, we should stand and place our right hand over our heart. I asked him what if I was home and had a baseball game on TV and they played the song. Do I stand for it then also? My dad said you can if you want, but in private, the choice is yours.
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Consider what if, in public, it has become idolatry ?
What if, the mental illness so common the last half century is because of the government's lies, excuses, and lack of integrity that people, men especially in the service, did not even suspect until they found out first hand in countries we harmed and established a drug trade from / or with ?
 
Em in Ohio said:
Circa 1958 (?), I was asked to leave the Catholic catechism classes for refusing to say "I believe in God, etc." As for the school issue, the principal and I came to a compromise - I would stand, but not be required to speak the pledge or put my hand over my heart. I was okay with these reactions - much less damaging to my self-esteem than being a hypocrite and faking it.
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Surprising the principal was so liberal in 1958. I think it’s cool you have a memory of being so independent.
 
Barbara971 said:
Surprising the principal was so liberal in 1958. I think it’s cool you have a memory of being so independent.
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Looking back, I was probably a pain in several people's behinds. But I'm neither proud nor ashamed. I was just firm in my convictions at an early age (probably 8 years old). I don't remember being rude, but definitely a bit obstinate.
 
I wasn't exposed to religious practices at home when I was a kid, so when we prayed in school, I had no idea what to do. I would just stand there looking around to see what the other kids were doing, which was lowering their heads with their eyes closed, so that's what I did. It was completely meaningless, as was the phrase "under God."
 
oldman said:
I am dismayed and saddened to read how many posters are not in agreement with the “Pledge of Allegiance.” To think of the hundreds of thousands of Americans that gave their life to keep the flag we have still flying. It is because of that flag that we have the rights that we do, including being able to be critical of its message. We may not be a perfect country, but I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.

Anyone that thinks there is somewhere better maybe should move there and live the better life.
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So only Americans who are in agreement are good enough to remain in the US?
 
If adults want to swear allegiance to a country or flag, that's their business. Forced rote indoctrination of children who can't possibly grasp the meaning of what they're being coerced to pledge 5 days a week X 13 years of school is inappropriate for any country, particularly a non-totalitarian one. Other democratic countries don't feel compelled to do this and they manage to have patriotic populations that love their country.

The US isn't the only country whose military have fought and died for their country. That's been true of most, if not all, nations on this planet. Hollywood depictions aside, in proportion to their populations, virtually all European countries (as well as Australia, New Zealand & Canada) suffered far greater losses of life and limb in WWII than did the US.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to be an American and love many things about this country. However, like everything I love, I'm willing to be honest about its failings in hopes of making things better. I had two Chinese HS foreign students living in my home for two years. Their unquestioning loyalty and belief in their country and its leadership was something to behold - and I don't mean that in a good way.

"Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed." Bruce Springsteen
 
Sunny said:
That cartoon reminded me of the famous quote about defending to the death anyone's right to utter his beliefs, whether you agree with them or not. I looked it up, and found this:

“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” is said to have come from Voltaire. It is not from Voltaire, the 18th-century philosopher, but it was a paraphrase from a biographer named Evelyn Beatrice Hall of what she thought Voltaire was thinking.

So, the veteran could have been wounded defending anyone's right to say anything (or not to) in this country. And to me, that is the meaning of liberty, not forcing children to mindlessly parrot patriotic/religious sentiments, which for most of them, mean nothing anyway.

And religous beliefs do not belong in a public school. The Pledge was much less offensive before that "
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StarSong said:
If adults want to swear allegiance to a country or flag, that's their business. Forced rote indoctrination of children who can't possibly grasp the meaning of what they're being coerced to pledge 5 days a week X 13 years of school is inappropriate for any country, particularly a non-totalitarian one. Other democratic countries don't feel compelled to do this and they manage to have patriotic populations that love their country.

The US isn't the only country whose military have fought and died for their country. That's been true of most, if not all, nations on this planet. Hollywood depictions aside, in proportion to their populations, virtually all European countries (as well as Australia, New Zealand & Canada) suffered far greater losses of life and limb in WWII than did the US.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to be an American and love many things about this country. However, like everything I love, I'm willing to be honest about its failings in hopes of making things better. I had two Chinese HS foreign students living in my home for two years. Their unquestioning loyalty and belief in their country and its leadership was something to behold - and I don't mean that in a good way.

"Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed." Bruce Springsteen
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Quoting The Boss?
 
StarSong said:
I had two Chinese HS foreign students living in my home for two years. Their unquestioning loyalty and belief in their country and its leadership was something to behold - and I don't mean that in a good way.

"Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed." Bruce Springsteen
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Multitudes in many, maybe most countries, got them killed now for thousands of years,
including in the usa for hundreds of years.
 
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