Pledge of Allegiance - are you pro or con?

[StarSong]

@StarSong, you remind me so very much of my Mom. (God) rest her soul. God in parentheses just in case you object.

I'm going to take that as a compliment.

No need to put God in parenthesis. I've ruled nothing out and surely hope He is up there with a master plan that will have all of us saying, "Oh, NOW I get what that was all about! Why didn't I see that before?" when this life is over.

 

[Alligatorob]

I am dismayed and saddened to read how many posters are not in agreement with the “Pledge of Allegiance.” To think of the hundreds of thousands of Americans that gave their life to keep the flag we have still flying. It is because of that flag that we have the rights that we do, including being able to be critical of its message. We may not be a perfect country, but I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.

I agree with you that we should honor our service men and women, and remember particularly those who died so we can be free.

However I don't see that requiring kids to do a daily rote pledge has much to do with that. If I recall I was not thinking of our fighting men and women when I was doing it, I was mostly bored. And certainly not thinking about what it meant.

I am pro-pledge and don't have a problem with folks saying it when they want to. I just don't see the value in the way it used to be required in school.

 

[SeniorBen]

It's been some 77 years since anyone died for our freedoms in an actual war. Our wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq were all lost. If the soldiers who fought in those wars were "fighting for our freedoms," since we lost all those wars, we would have lost our freedoms, which we didn't... not as a direct result of them anyway.

A year-and-a-half ago on Jan. 6, 2021, there was a battle for our democracy at the U.S. Capitol. One could make convincing case that several police officers died for our freedoms in that battle. They should be honored as heroes and hopefully, they will be some day.

 

[Warrigal]

It's been some 77 years since anyone died for our freedoms in an actual war. Our wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq were all lost. If the soldiers who fought in those wars were "fighting for our freedoms," since we lost all those wars, we would have lost our freedoms, which we didn't... not as a direct result of them anyway.

A year-and-a-half ago on Jan. 6, 2021, there was a battle for our democracy at the U.S. Capitol. One could make convincing case that several police officers died for our freedoms in that battle. They should be honored as heroes and hopefully, they will be some day.

Not sure about the logic but you do make some valid points.

However, fighting an enemy overseas is better than fighting them on home soil.
My dad enlisted in the second AIF to fight the Japanese in New Guinea and he told me that that was his reason. He fought for home and family, not for any flag and not because of any childhood pledge.

 

[Just Jeff]

However, fighting an enemy overseas is better than fighting them on home soil.

The billions of dollars in drugs that were funneled, shipped, flown in tremendous amounts to the kids and adults addicts in the usa, "home soil", from the countries where we were "at war" or doing a policing action
may likely have destroyed more families and killed more people than those who died at or in a war.
The reason for most of the wars was that, money, not democracy at all, and not protecting anyone. Soldiers from privates to generals discovered this, and went awol is huge numbers without danger of prosecution for a long time. Others came 'home' sick with mental disorders or one type or another, because of the lack of integrity and the lies they were told to get them to enlist and to go kill.

 

[Alligatorob]

It's been some 77 years since anyone died for our freedoms in an actual war. Our wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq were all lost. If the soldiers who fought in those wars were "fighting for our freedoms," since we lost all those wars, we would have lost our freedoms, which we didn't... not as a direct result of them anyway.

Those wars may have been stupid, but the soldiers who fought them were no less heroes than WWII or any other war. They fought for us, at our request, they were not responsible for the wisdom of the wars.

And right or wrong those were actual wars, hard to say Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the others were not.

 

[SeniorBen]

Those wars may have been stupid, but the soldiers who fought them were no less heroes than WWII or any other war. They fought for us, at our request, they were not responsible for the wisdom of the wars.

And right or wrong those were actual wars, hard to say Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the others were not.

I wasn't saying those weren't actual wars. I was saying that those who fought in those wars weren't fighting for our freedoms. My point was that the police who fought in the 1/6/2021 battle at the Capitol did fight for our freedoms.

As far as the soldiers who fought in the wars since WWII, I agree that they were heroes. Many of them paid the ultimate price fighting for our country.

 

[Been There]

I do believe a lot of us have misinterpreted the meaning of the lines in the Pledge of Allegiance. At least from what I have been taught.

 

[Moon Rat]

With so many posts on this topic, I think I will pass on posting my position.

 

[StarSong]

A year-and-a-half ago on Jan. 6, 2021, there was a battle for our democracy at the U.S. Capitol. One could make convincing case that several police officers died for our freedoms in that battle. They should be honored as heroes and hopefully, they will be some day.

I agree. The bravery of the men and women who held the line against that lawless mob should not be forgotten.

 

[Sunny]

You need to read up on American History! References to 'God' are all over the buildings and monuments in our country. You are on the outside looking in wondering where all this "God" stuff came from. It was part of the foundation in forming our nation. Our founders purposely left off which God. But references to God none the less was frequently used...

Timewise, I didn't mean to imply that the inclusion of religion is a recent development. I'm pretty conversant with American history and what's on our monuments, especially since I live literally next door to Washington, D.C.

But what I'm wondering is why, in a secular country dedicated to the separation of church and state, there is so much religiosity on display here.

 

[Timewise 60+]

Timewise, I didn't mean to imply that the inclusion of religion is a recent development. I'm pretty conversant with American history and what's on our monuments, especially since I live literally next door to Washington, D.C.

But what I'm wondering is why, in a secular country dedicated to the separation of church and state, there is so much religiosity on display here.

If you read up on our founding fathers, you will find that most of them were deeply committed to Christianity or the existence of a deity. In those days their religion was foundational to everything in their lives. So, it is not a surprise that the inclusion of Christianity/ Deity was prominent in much of what they did. Yet, they clearly recognized the importance of separation of state and religion. They expressed their beliefs in symbolic comments/ signage but included the importance fof the separation of church and state in many transformational documents.

 

[Sunny]

Yes, but there is a BIG difference between being personally religious oneself, and including religious pledges, symbols of one religion, songs, symbols, etc. as representations of this country.

And while most of the Founding Fathers probably were at least nominally Christian, not all were. There were Jews, Deists, Atheists, and how about the Native Americans and all their beliefs?

 

[Timewise 60+]

Yes, but there is a BIG difference between being personally religious oneself, and including religious pledges, symbols of one religion, songs, symbols, etc. as representations of this country.

And while most of the Founding Fathers probably were at least nominally Christian, not all were. There were Jews, Deists, Atheists, and how about the Native Americans and all their beliefs?

As I clearly said, "Most of them". I am not trying to justify what they did, I am only stating why the actually did what they did. I am speaking for the original founding fathers, only seven of them!

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison. While there were many others who contributed to the founding of the United States, these seven are considered by most as the Founding Fathers.

As for them all being Christians, they probably were not, but the 'experts' seem to disagree. Below is the explanation that I think is best stated.

"The evidence is that Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin and John Adams can best be described as deists and that Alexander Hamilton, George Washington and others are a bit harder to pigeonhole as they were mostly quiet about their beliefs. Adams was a Unitarian, who attended church but rejected the trinity and the deity of Christ. Franklin and Jefferson did not attend church regularly. They did not ascribe to any particular denominational doctrine. Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Adams and Washington appear to have believed in God, but to be skeptical about miracles and, most importantly, about the deity of Jesus Christ. They were highly influenced by the enlightenment and its reason, logic and skepticism. Having said that, all of these men spoke very highly of the Bible and probably knew their Bibles better than nearly all Christians today. They quoted the Bible freely as a source of moral and ethical truth. All of them would have considered Jesus of Nazareth the greatest or one of the greatest possible human examples. All would have rejected atheism as untrue and dangerous."

My father always told me to "Do as I say, not as I do" I guess looking back, he got it!

 

[Alligatorob]

@Timewise 60+ I think you are about right on our forefathers views of religion. The Faiths of the Founding Fathers

It was a very different time, many fewer books available so the Bible was more likely to be read and studied. And they did not have the scientific explanations of natural phenomenon that we do today. Before Darwin, James Hutton (father of modern geology) just starting to publish his ideas, and lots of others. I think more unexplainable mysteries leads to more believe in some kind of God. Making atheism and perhaps agnosticism less common.

 

[David777]

Do not agree with people using The Pledge of Allegiance or our USA flag to make protests over some societal issue they don't like. Sets a poor nitpicking societal degenerating precedent.

Outside the religious reference, the rest is fine. Here in California during the 1950s all we kids started public grade school days so. I do support its continued use. Anyone legally immigrating ought by law legally swear so. I have absolutely no issue banning those that do not.

 

[Alligatorob]

Anyone legally immigrating ought by law legally swear so.

The Oath of Allegiance required of any immigrant becoming a US citizen is different, and better than the Pledge of Allegiance, see below:

“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

It is possible to have the "so help me God" words removed.

 

[Just Jeff]

that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic;

All would have rejected atheism as untrue and dangerous."

Yes, a domestic enemy of all life, not just enemy of the country.

 

[Alligatorob]

Yes, a domestic enemy of all life, not just enemy of the country.

Are you referring to atheists?

If so how are they enemies?

Some interesting articles:

Religious People Less Motivated by Compassion than Atheists

and

Atheists More Motivated By Compassion Than The Faithful?

I doubt that atheists are better or worse than religious people.

 

[Wontactmyage]

I think some times people, as do I, have difficulties with “organized” religions. Belief in God does not challenge me. I have gone to many different organized churches their interpretation of biblical text is always interesting. Believing in the old or new testaments or just one versus the other. I am more of the belief the are Ying Yang of each other.

 

[Just Jeff]

I think some times people, as do I, have difficulties with “organized” religions. Belief in God does not challenge me. I have gone to many different organized churches their interpretation of biblical text is always interesting.

Sometimes may be 'interesting' like this > "There is a way that seems right, but the end thereof is the way of death". /may be paraphrased/
i.e. wicked or evil or seeming harmless religious or other cults who want people to join or even just to leave them alone, will say or do almost anything sometimes daily, sometimes for centuries, deceiving others, to make that happen.

Those actually seeking The Creator may , like I did, go down a bunch of false trails before realizing how wrong mankind /society/ is everywhere , almost.

 

[Knight]

As A topic this has zig zagged all over. Everything from personal experiences to excerpts from written history.

I particularly like the post about watching little children having to pledge to foreign governments that America considers an enemy. Watching those kids and thinking WOW early indoctrination. Then remembering I did the same for all my early years in school.

Since history was cited my opinion is why not teach about the pledge when kids are old enough to understand the basis for the pledge?

 

[SeniorBen]

As was posted above, our Founding Fathers were deists -- not theists. (Note: this may be a zig or possibly a zag.) Here is what deists believe:

Understanding the Basics of Deism (Supplemental Resource for POLS-208)
https://www.suffolk.edu/-/media/suf...igion---understanding-the-basics-of-deism.pdf

Origins:
- Originated in Europe, mainly among intellectuals.
- Deism began to gain prominence in the 17th Century.
- An early proponent of Deism was the English Lord Edward Herbert of Cherbury.

Key Facts/Beliefs of Deism:
- Belief in a higher power/supreme being.
- Belief in an afterlife.
- Rejects revelations as a source of religious evidence.
- Oriented toward scientific fact and natural observation, rather than scripture.
- Heavily influenced by ideas from the Enlightenment.
- Very much an intellectual movement.
- Heavily influential during the American revolution and in early America. The Declaration of Independence uses Deistic language.

What Deists Do NOT Believe In:
- The revelations of the Abrahamic religions.
- The Bible as an absolute guide.
- The need for frequent prayer.
- Baptism and circumcision.
- Regularly attending church or any other meeting involving worship.
- The need for a personal relationship with a priest.
- Communion.

Some Deistic Terms for God:
- Divine Providence.
- Nature’s God.
- Divine Creator.

Famous Deists (or Suspected Deists):
- Edward Herbert –– English Lord of Cherbury.
- Thomas Paine –– English-born American philosopher. Wrote “The Age of Reason,”
“Common Sense,” and “Rights of Man.”
- Thomas Jefferson –– 2nd Vice President, and later, 3rd President of the United States. He was a Christian Deist.
- George Washington (suspected but not certain) –– 1st President of the United States. Harbored Deist beliefs meaning that he may have been a Christian Deist like Jefferson. He notably always left church services before communion.

 

[Packerjohn]

I am from Canada so I don't pay taxes in the US so maybe my humble opinion doesn't count for much but I'm a believer in free speech so "here she goes."

One time while attending the Grand Ole' Opry in Nashville, Tennessee my wife and I stood with all the Americans and pledged this allegiance. We spent 2 winters down in Port Isabel, Texas and saw this pledge several times. It was rather interesting because we don't have such a thing here in Canada and we sure don't fly the flag as much as the American do but I admit I do love Canada; snow and all!

My feelings is that there is nothing wrong with loving your country. I have always considered the USA to be our best friends. Look at this from my viewpoint. If I had a choice for a neighbour, which of the following would I choice? China, Russia, India, Columbia, USA? I don't think I have to answer that question.

 

[JaniceM]

As A topic this has zig zagged all over. Everything from personal experiences to excerpts from written history.

I particularly like the post about watching little children having to pledge to foreign governments that America considers an enemy. Watching those kids and thinking WOW early indoctrination. Then remembering I did the same for all my early years in school.

Since history was cited my opinion is why not teach about the pledge when kids are old enough to understand the basis for the pledge?

You've addressed my only "complaint" on the subject- I was taught to recite the Pledge when I started Kindergarten at age 4.. but it wasn't til the 3rd grade that a teacher explained what it meant.
And, as a long-ago story in the Reader's Digest showed, many little kids "mis-hear" the words anyway.