prisons

2 million sounds accurate.

If I ever ran for President, one of the main planks in my platform would be top to bottom reform of the entire criminal justice system. Criminal codes, policing, sentencing, prisons, parole, rehabilitation -- everything needs a major overhaul.

And this is a bipartisan issue. No one, conservative or liberal, wants (or should want) an 18 year old first time nonviolent offender subjected to our prison system, turned from a kid who made a mistake into a hardened criminal. But this happens every day, thousands of times over.

just my two cents....
 

Sunny said:
Seems to me that the biggest part of the "punishment" is the lack of freedom. Imagine being trapped for years, maybe permanently, in a place which you may NEVER get out of, never drive a car, never go anywhere outside of the prison. And maybe have little or no contact with your family and friends.

And you have to eat when and what someone else decides, exercise and sleep when someone else decides, if you have any recreation, it's what someone else decides. Many of your daily companions are cruel, sadistic, mentally ill, psychopathic, full of hatred and constantly spewing offensive language. That's what you are condemned to be surrounded by, day by day.

The living conditions inside the prison are almost irrelevant; it would be awful to be locked up anywhere, even a place that doesn't look like a medieval dungeon.
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But people shouldnt get that freedom sunny , if they are evil.....
They get looked after very well in my eyes !!
 
Gary O' said:
I've got to add something that came to mind;

On my way outa Guangdong province and outa China, I had breakfast with a couple expats.
Man, were they ever hungry for any news from back home.
The one guy had a hugely swollen eye from a spider bite.
No real medical help.
Low end production workers, for nigh to zero wages.
Poor living conditions.
They were essentially prisoners of China.

Glad to get home

​

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My daughter wanted to go with a group to China for a month. She was in her early 20s. I begged her to change her mind, because I had a bad feeling about it. She insisted she was going. Thankfully the first SARS epidemic happened and they cancelled the trip. She ended up going to Russia instead.
 

Sunny said:
Seems to me that the biggest part of the "punishment" is the lack of freedom. Imagine being trapped for years, maybe permanently, in a place which you may NEVER get out of, never drive a car, never go anywhere outside of the prison. And maybe have little or no contact with your family and friends.

And you have to eat when and what someone else decides, exercise and sleep when someone else decides, if you have any recreation, it's what someone else decides. Many of your daily companions are cruel, sadistic, mentally ill, psychopathic, full of hatred and constantly spewing offensive language. That's what you are condemned to be surrounded by, day by day.

The living conditions inside the prison are almost irrelevant; it would be awful to be locked up anywhere, even a place that doesn't look like a medieval dungeon.
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If you want to fantasize about being in prison, think about being 22 y/o and serving a life sentence w/o parole. When a person is convicted of a crime and sent to prison for years, his first duty to help himself will be to join a gang. At least, this is what they believe. Gang members give each other protection. To get into a gang, you don't just join or sign up. There are conditions before you join and after you join, which only makes your situation worse. Problem is, you can't tell convicted felons on their way to prison what they need to do to get their sentence shortened and get an early release. Most don't want to hear it. A few will listen, but the majority of them believe they have it all figured out.
 
charry said:
But people shouldnt get that freedom sunny , if they are evil.....
They get looked after very well in my eyes !!
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I think you misunderstood my post, Charry. I never said that "evil people" should not be incarcerated.

My only point was that prison itself is a punishment, and the loss of freedom is the main part of it. The living conditions in the prison are not the main point. Would you want to be incarcerated in a nice, clean, modern building with kind, understanding guards... but you still can never leave the damn place? I certainly wouldn't!
 
Gary O' said:
2000

Y2K was a huge celebration in HK (China took back Hong Kong that year)

Inland....not so much

Where I went, it was factory hell
As far as you could see, factory after factory
Inside those factories were people
Inside the barracks were people....stacked like cord wood
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I have been to China, but not to any of their prisons. HK sits on the Kowloon Peninsula. Great for shopping. Just ask my wife. Good place to buy precious stones. Very good prices. When we landed at the old airport, it took the pilot 3 attempts before he was able to sit the plane down and get stopped before running into the South China Sea. I hear the new airport is much better and safer. The first attempt scared the crap out of me. The pilot flew between 2 vey tall buildings and had to tilt the plane so that the wings would not hit 1 of the buildings.
 
911 said:
When we landed at the old airport, it took the pilot 3 attempts before he was able to sit the plane down and get stopped before running into the South China Sea. I hear the new airport is much better and safer.
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Not sure if old or new, but the airport was shut down for a bit due to a downpour/deluge of rain the volume I've never seen.
It subsided and we made schedule, but thought I'd be on the street if it got delayed.
HK and Kowloon hotels were full up.
 
911 said:
I have been to China, but not to any of their prisons. HK sits on the Kowloon Peninsula. Great for shopping. Just ask my wife. Good place to buy precious stones. Very good prices. When we landed at the old airport, it took the pilot 3 attempts before he was able to sit the plane down and get stopped before running into the South China Sea. I hear the new airport is much better and safer. The first attempt scared the crap out of me. The pilot flew between 2 vey tall buildings and had to tilt the plane so that the wings would not hit 1 of the buildings.
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I didn't know foreigners had a choice, I thought that was arbitrarily ruled upon, sort of like, roll the dice and see where you wind-up.
 
Sunny said:
Would you want to be incarcerated in a nice, clean, modern building with kind, understanding guards... but you still can never leave the damn place? I certainly wouldn't!
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In my state there's been a shortage of prison guards for decades.
Our prisons are built in rural areas, so the 'good' people won't have to view these 'rascals.'
Since there in the rural, the employee pool contains a lot of 'Elmers' and Zekes.
 
I highly recommend that anyone interested in learning about more effective prisons and justice systems look into the Norwegian prison system. It was developed in the 1990's and their incarceration rate is 75 per 100,000 people. The US incarceration rate was 698 per 100,000 so we're at least 8 times higher. They also have a recidivism rate around 20% where it used to be 60 to 70% in the 90's.

However I doubt we'll ever do anything similar here in the US on a large scale for a number of reasons. From what I've seen and read people here tend to want others to be punished for their crimes. I've also seen that people here are also against giving prisoners they wonderful conditions they have in Norway. Even if the system does work better and their justice system costs a lot less overall people won't want to pay to make our prisons better to make them better and returning people to being better members of society.

Here's an article to start with https://borgenproject.org/norways-prison-system/
 
asp3 said:
I highly recommend that anyone interested in learning about more effective prisons and justice systems look into the Norwegian prison system. It was developed in the 1990's and their incarceration rate is 75 per 100,000 people. The US incarceration rate was 698 per 100,000 so we're at least 8 times higher. They also have a recidivism rate around 20% where it used to be 60 to 70% in the 90's.

However I doubt we'll ever do anything similar here in the US on a large scale for a number of reasons. From what I've seen and read people here tend to want others to be punished for their crimes. I've also seen that people here are also against giving prisoners they wonderful conditions they have in Norway. Even if the system does work better and their justice system costs a lot less overall people won't want to pay to make our prisons better to make them better and returning people to being better members of society.

Here's an article to start with https://borgenproject.org/norways-prison-system/
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You're comparing apples to oranges (as the cliché goes). Norway is highly socialized with a highly homogeneous population (although that's changing). But with a socialized economy, nobody is truly impoverished. I don't think they even have slums there—not like we have here in the U.S., anyway. So kids in Norway don't grow up in an environment where they feel like their only way to succeed is through crime.
 
Irwin said:
You're comparing apples to oranges (as the cliché goes). Norway is highly socialized with a highly homogeneous population (although that's changing). But with a socialized economy, nobody is truly impoverished. I don't think they even have slums there—not like we have here in the U.S., anyway. So kids in Norway don't grow up in an environment where they feel like their only way to succeed is through crime.
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You may be right.

They are trying some of the principals of the Norwegian system in North Dakota now. Although North Dakota also has a more homogenous population than one would have in many other parts of the US it will be interesting to see if the system reduces recidivism of those who go through it. It would provide a better population to compare against.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ays-approach-north-dakota-reforms-its-prisons
 
asp3 said:
You may be right.

They are trying some of the principals of the Norwegian system in North Dakota now. Although North Dakota also has a more homogenous population than one would have in many other parts of the US it will be interesting to see if the system reduces recidivism of those who go through it. It would provide a better population to compare against.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ays-approach-north-dakota-reforms-its-prisons
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It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.
 
Watching The First 48 a few days ago a guy is mad at another guy for spitting on his girlfriend. The next day he follows him in his car and when the hunted gets out of his car and walks away the hunter walks behind him and shoots him twice in the back of the head and once in the back. All caught on video. Verdict: Guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Sentence: 10 years!
 
fmdog44 said:
Watching The First 48 a few days ago a guy is mad at another guy for spitting on his girlfriend. The next day he follows him in his car and when the hunted gets out of his car and walks away the hunter walks behind him and shoots him twice in the back of the head and once in the back. All caught on video. Verdict: Guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Sentence: 10 years!
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Where was this, do you know?
 
Sunny said:
I think you misunderstood my post, Charry. I never said that "evil people" should not be incarcerated.

My only point was that prison itself is a punishment, and the loss of freedom is the main part of it. The living conditions in the prison are not the main point. Would you want to be incarcerated in a nice, clean, modern building with kind, understanding guards... but you still can never leave the damn place? I certainly wouldn't!
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Yes i would 😂
 
Irwin said:
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.
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I agree completely. I’ve often heard that many homeless people try and get convicted so they have food & a place to stay which is very sad.
 
Irwin said:
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.
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Not a chance. At least not anybody under 60.
 
Irwin said:
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.
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There is usually a way out of squalor. But escape, and changing one's life, requires freedom. I think the value of freedom exceeds by far the
"value" of being given three meals a day while trapped in a cage like an animal, constantly forced to live in close quarters with some very sick and/or evil people. Even if the cage is relatively comfortable.

Instead of prison, let's change the situation a little bit (but not that much.) If you were a Black person living in America in the antebellum South, and had one of the "better" slave jobs, say as a butler or housemaid, would you prefer that to getting your freedom?
 
Sunny said:
Charry, I assume, from the laughing smilie, that you are not answering seriously. If you were, I would feel very, very sorry for you.
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Your allowed to feel sorry for me Sunny 😂 I ll let you !!
 

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