Race/Racism discussion

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This thread began with questions and I admit I haven't read all the responses. I have a few questions for the op's
opinion and hopefully some input about whatever the opinion might be.


Are race relation improved or deminished by separating races via these


Black congressional congress.
Black entertainment T V
Black Miss America Contest
Black African Americans


The last one "Black African Americans" IMO is really a direct separation. Why the distinction since many identifying themselves that way were born in America.
 

Getting back to the video posted by ray188........I don't agree with everything that was said, but I do agree with most of it.

Proliferation of baby mommas:

Since 1970, out-of-wedlock birth rates have soared. In 1965, 24 percent of black infants and 3.1 percent of white infants were born to single mothers. By 1990 the rates had risen to 64 percent for black infants, 18 percent for whites. Every year about one million more children are born into fatherless families. If we have learned any policy lesson well over the past 25 years, it is that for children living in single-parent homes, the odds of living in poverty are great. The policy implications of the increase in out-of-wedlock births are staggering

https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

Today, 72% of black births are in single parent homes. This is an outrage. :mad:

What's also outrageous is that while the fathers/baby daddies are blamed, the mothers/baby mommas usually receive support and compassion within the black community. And, they all too often keep having more babies.

The black nuclear family with 2 parents -(one or both working) is an exception, not the norm. Since the 1960s it has gotten progressively worse.

Shameful. Yet there doesn't seem to be much shame. It just keeps happening, over and over.



 

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Crabs in a barrel

A syndrome where a group of like situated people hurt those in their community attempting to get ahead.

Often this is applied to people in an impoverished community where one person is starting to get ahead. The collective community becomes jealous or filled with a sense of self-loathing, so they find a way to
pull that person back down to the community's level.

When harvesting crab, the crab as a groupwill pull down any crab that starts to climb out of the barrel in an attempt to be the first out of the barrel that holds them in, hence crabs-in-a-barrel.

This is something that happens within a black group of people that's not talked about much. It often happens in junior high or high school. The crabs (male and especially female) are bullies and often successful at intimidating a weaker youngster who:

- is a good student, gets good grades
- is attractive, wears nice clothes
- has a stable family life
- is often popular and well liked, often has several white friends

It's a special form of jealousy. The crabs resent their miserable lives. Instead of trying to be nice, study harder, and eventually improve their lives they focus on trying to hold someone else back.

Do you think "crabs in a barrel" will ever be presented in Black Lives Matter media releases. What better way to begin the process of not viewing oneself as always the victim of white society? Promoting the accomplishments of those that didn't fall prey to being the crab in the barrel could be a start. Focusing on the positive instead of the negative might help to change the ongoing division in America.
 
@ Knight

To be honest, I don't pay much attention/give much thought to BLM, so I can't speculate. I think too many people misinterpret the phrase and get all riled up about it.

However, people who don't fall prey to crabs in a barrel should be proud.
 
Hey, everybody! :) Did ya think I forgot about this thread? Nah.

Back when I was talking about interracial relationships, I meant to tell this story ..... too late to insert it so I'll tell it now. It's also a good example of 'crabs in a barrel'.

1966........a black girl named Esther was a friend of mine. (I was not happy that she was also a friend of the trouble-making clique, but more about that later.) Esther was kinda goofy/ditzy, not a very good student, but she was VERY attractive. Cute face, dynamite figure, and dressed to the nines in clothes from the most expensive women's clothing store in town. Her father owned/operated a successful janitorial service that had contract with many of the businesses in town - banks, medical buildings, etc. They lived in a beautiful home.

Esther told me she really liked a white boy named Bill who was in several of my classes. He was a good-looking guy - popular, friendly, and Bill and I had a good relationship. Esther had seen me chatting with him. So she decided to write him a note and slipped it into his locker. She told several people about her plan (she wanted to date him), and we waited to see if he would reply or what was gonna happen. I suspect the trouble-makers (crabs) were jealous of Esther.

Well, Bill replied. I didn't actually see the reply, but I recall that Esther was crying. Apparently Bill told her he thought she was super-attractive, but that he felt he choice of close friends (she hung out with the trouble-makers) left a lot to be desired. When she was with the crabs, she became like them - loud, obnoxious, mean, instigating fights, often in detention or principal's office. He said that was the ONLY reason that he didn't want to pursue a relationship with her.

Instead of distancing herself from the crabs, she went to them and cried on their shoulder. Of course, they told her he was prejudiced. Go figure. :shrug:
 
Earlier I talked about how racism is so easy to hide. More about that.

I'm not, nor have I ever been someone who goes thru life blaming white people for all my problems. And I don't think all white people are racists. But I've been in situations where for a long time I didn't think my skin color was an issue/problem, then BAM! something happens or something is said to show that I'm wrong. (One example was the manager of the store where I worked when I was a teenager...I told that story already.)

OR.......a white person will forget (or ignore) that I'm there and say something that will reveal their true feelings. OR they will feign innocence and pretend they saw nothing wrong with what they did/said. OR they truly see nothing wrong with their feelings/statements.

Back in the late 1980s - early 1990s I lived in an apartment complex that had a laundry room in a different building. Sometimes if all the machines were being used, I'd put my basket in the car and drive to a small laundromat nearby. The owner of this laundromat knew me by sight, and we sometimes chatted. One evening I was standing near the dryers waiting for my things to finish drying. I could kinda hear the owner talking to one of the patrons, but I wasn't paying attention to the substance of their conversation. Suddenly I heard him say "As far as I'm concerned all the n*ggers can get on a plane and go live in South Africa. See how they like THAT." Then I heard laughing. (btw at the time apartheid was alive and well in South Africa.)

Did I confront him? No. I just folded my towels, and as I walked out he said "Have a good evening." Yeah.
 
This is a long thread which I haven't seen before, and don't have the time to read through all the discussions, though I'm sure they are very interesting! So, I apologize if this has been addressed already.

Has the subject of reverse racism ever come up? My retirement community is a mixed bag racially, with many racial, ethnic, and religious groups living together. Partly this is due to this being a very cosmopolitan area, and our demographic reflects the general population.

I haven't seen or heard any overt racism from anyone. Most of the white people are very careful in, for instance, describing how someone looks, and they sort of tiptoe around discussing what race anyone is. If it does come up, most white people will say something like, "She's a very nice African American lady," because some years back, the word "black" became offensive.

But I've noticed at pretty much all the group events (parties, concerts, lectures, etc.) that people seem to stick together with "their own." This seems to be particularly true of all the minority groups. Look at a theatre audience: Asians are always sitting next to Asians, blacks with other blacks, etc. I wonder if this is a kind of reverse racism, or if people just feel safer and more comfortable with their own group, particularly if they are a minority.

Once, my building had a party where I noticed a group of black women sitting together in a corner of the room. I knew some of them, so I went over to chat with them. They were very friendly and cordial, and we had a pleasant chat, but after I left that corner of the room, there was still no mingling. They wanted to sit with each other, period.

Maybe all the years of racism have prompted this, as a defense mechanism? In my experience, my black neighbors are some of the nicest people living here, and I would love to spend more time with them. But short of my joining the African-American club and going to meetings, I don't think it's gonna happen.
 
...... didn't actually see the reply, but I recall that Esther was crying. Apparently Bill told her he thought she was super-attractive, but that he felt he choice of close friends (she hung out with the trouble-makers) left a lot to be desired. When she was with the crabs, she became like them - loud, obnoxious, mean, instigating fights, often in detention or principal's office. He said that was the ONLY reason that he didn't want to pursue a relationship with her. Instead of distancing herself from the crabs, she went to them and cried on their shoulder. Of course, they told her he was prejudiced.

I like this story because it's universal. Applies to any group --- religious, ethnic, racial. Bill was smart --- wasn't going for the looks alone which a lot of guys do, imho. I've heard a few tales that were similar, over the years.

........They were very friendly and cordial, and we had a pleasant chat, but after I left that corner of the room, there was still no mingling. They wanted to sit with each other, period.

Also, a universal tale.
 
This is a long thread which I haven't seen before, and don't have the time to read through all the discussions, though I'm sure they are very interesting! So, I apologize if this has been addressed already.

Has the subject of reverse racism ever come up? My retirement community is a mixed bag racially, with many racial, ethnic, and religious groups living together. Partly this is due to this being a very cosmopolitan area, and our demographic reflects the general population.

I haven't seen or heard any overt racism from anyone. Most of the white people are very careful in, for instance, describing how someone looks, and they sort of tiptoe around discussing what race anyone is. If it does come up, most white people will say something like, "She's a very nice African American lady," because some years back, the word "black" became offensive.

But I've noticed at pretty much all the group events (parties, concerts, lectures, etc.) that people seem to stick together with "their own." This seems to be particularly true of all the minority groups. Look at a theatre audience: Asians are always sitting next to Asians, blacks with other blacks, etc. I wonder if this is a kind of reverse racism, or if people just feel safer and more comfortable with their own group, particularly if they are a minority.

Once, my building had a party where I noticed a group of black women sitting together in a corner of the room. I knew some of them, so I went over to chat with them. They were very friendly and cordial, and we had a pleasant chat, but after I left that corner of the room, there was still no mingling. They wanted to sit with each other, period.

Maybe all the years of racism have prompted this, as a defense mechanism? In my experience, my black neighbors are some of the nicest people living here, and I would love to spend more time with them. But short of my joining the African-American club and going to meetings, I don't think it's gonna happen.

Hi Sunny,

This thread was very active for several weeks last October/November, and yes it is long (and will continue to be.....there's a lot to be said.) You're very active on this forum on a regular basis, so I'm surprised you haven't seen this thread.

I appreciate your comments/questions, and I want to address them.

First of all, the term black is not offensive - never has been. Not all black/people of color came from Africa. While I know some prefer the term African American, I don't and neither do any black people I know or am related to.

Racism is simply considering one's race/ethnicity to be superior to another. People of the same race sitting together at a movie, restaurant, sports event, etc, is not reverse racism (or reverse discrimination). Obviously the women you referenced who sat together at the party knew each other, were enjoying each other's company, and having a nice time. How is that reverse racism? Just because they were black and sitting together doesn't mean they were denying the rights of white people or that they were hostile to white people.

I've seen situations where blacks or Hispanics or Asians cluster together. Sometimes it was in work environments, sometimes social events. I've mingled and socialized with and been close friends with a lot of white people throughout my lifetime, and it wasn't to show that I'm not racist.

From Wikipedia:
"The concept of reverse racism or reverse discrimination has been used, especially in the United States, to describe the perceived denial of rights and privileges to members of dominant groups in order to benefit racial and ethnic minorities
.
The term has also been used to characterize various expressions of hostility or indifference toward
white people by members of minority groups. "


In my experience, my black neighbors are some of the nicest people living here, and I would love to spend more time with them. But short of my joining the African-American club and going to meetings, I don't think it's gonna happen.

No, you don't need to join the AA club and go to meetings (if such an organization exists, and I suspect it does not). But when you see someone who you'd like to get to know better/spend time with you can invite them for coffee, lunch, etc. regardless of what race they are. Would that be so hard? I wouldn't think it would be since the black people living there are so nice.
 
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The fact is, most people are just more comfortable with those they perceive are "like them." The older I get, the less inclined I am to mingle with strangers no matter what color they are.

We are all different in many ways and yet we are the same. In my circle of friends and close to my heart are a gay man, people of different races, and a wheelchair-bound woman who had polio as a child and is as feisty as a terrier. They are ALL my friends; I love them no matter what our differences.

My daughter dated a black man for a time and I absolutely adored him; I was so disappointed when they broke off their relationship. He wasn't "black" to us; he was Derek. (Daughter married a charming Hispanic guy instead, and we acquired two beautiful step-granddaughters.)

I know about reverse discrimination having had my own experience with it as a young woman. It didn't scar me or cause me to riot in the streets, but I still remember how it felt.
 
cause me to riot in the streets,

Funny. :laugh:

Okay, so some might think "AC you've pointed out what isn't reverse discrimination. How about an example is what it IS?"

I got this from googling:

"Examples of "reverse discrimination
" may include: Making hiring or promoting decisions in favor of minority groups, despite the experience or seniority of Caucasian, male, or other majority applicants. Hiring or promoting women solely on the basis of their gender over equally or more qualified males."

Or, if I owned an apt bldg. or house that I wanted to rent. I have 2 applicants.
One black who has adequate income, references, so-so credit.
One white who has better income and references, and excellent credit.

I choose the black person solely because the person is black. That's reverse discrimination.

One of the most famous reverse discrimination cases was in 1978, the Allan Bakke case.

Regents of UCLA v Bakke was a landmark decisionby the Supreme Court of the United States
. It upheld affirmative action , allowing race to be one of several factors in college admission policy
. However, the court ruled that specific racial quotas , such as the 16 out of 100 seats set aside for minority students by the University of California, Davis School of Medicine
, were impermissible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_Univ._of_Cal._v._Bakke
 
Thanks, Applecruncher, for clarifying that thing about blacks vs. African Americans. It reminded me of an answer I once got from an American Indian friend when I asked if she preferred "Indian" or "Native American." She said very definitely, "Indian! We've been called that for centuries, everybody is used to it, and it isn't the slightest bit offensive."

About your comment:
But when you see someone who you'd like to get to know better/spend time with you can invite them for coffee, lunch, etc. regardless of what race they are. Would that be so hard? I wouldn't think it would be since the black people are so nice?

Why do you assume that hasn't happened? Actually, I have had black friends over, along with everybody else, the last few times I entertained.

But I have to wonder, what would your reaction be if there was a party or something given by the local African American club (that's what they call it here), and a small group of white people attended, and sat huddled together in a corner for the whole evening, without making the slightest effort to mingle?
 
@Cap'nSacto

You asked me a question earlier today, and I said I needed to think about it.

I found this:

http://www.wedonteatanimals.com/blog/5-things-everyone-can-do-heal-americas-racism

5 THINGS EVERYONE CAN DO TO HEAL AMERICA'S RACISM

1. ACKNOWLEDGE THE GAP
Admit, at least to yourself, that you probably don't know too much about the experience of people of color—unless you have, over great lengths of time, repeatedly put yourself in environments where you are the racial minority, away from the watchful eye of white society. Admission is the first step to recovery.


2. READ & WATCH
Educate yourself on African American history. If you don't intentionally seek out the history of all peoples of color, in fact, you can not possibly know American history at all, nor the real context and implications of race today. To get you started, these are just a few of my most beloved, mind-blowing, life-changing resources that cover a great span of time.
The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du Bois
Race Rebels: Culture Politics, and the Black Working Class by Robin D.G. Kelley
Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass; Narrative of Sojourner Truth; The Light of Truth: Writings of an Anti-Lynching Crusader: Ida B. Wells
• Watch documentation of anti-racism activist Jane Elliot's "Blue-Eyed Brown-Eyed" workshops—they are some of the most powerful demonstrations of the insidious nature of racism on both the "superior" and oppressed sides. See what happens when she discriminates against a group of people based on eye color, lowers her expectations of them, and breaks their confidence as they live down to those expectations:
How Racist Are You? Part I (11 min)
The Angry Eye (51 min)
Purchase the "Blue-Eyed" documentary on Jane Elliot for diversity training purposes here.

3. INTEGRATE
Because of the intersections of race and class, our schools have become largely segregated once again. We have to integrate ourselves if we want our generation and the next to be brothers and sisters. If you or your kids have extracurriculars, hobbies, or after school activities, for example, try doing them in a neighborhood you wouldn't normally venture to—not once or twice like you're on some exoticized safari, but for extended periods of time—to build relationships, friendships, networks, and communities. If this sounds scary to you, the problem of racism and its effect on your life should be appearing clearer. See #1 again.

4. STOP SUGAR-COATING
Stop telling kids that "everyone is equal" and start explaining America's history of inequality, what's going on in the news, and—outrightly and clearly—why racism is sick and wrong. Teach your kids to identify and stand in solidarity with just causes, collectives, ideas, and people
.

5. CHOOSE YOUR ACTIVISM THOUGHTFULLY
Don't toss around trendy hashtags nor assume you know what any community needs or wants, or what is good for them. Some of the most useless activism I've seen happens when outsiders come into a neighborhood and start offering services that have nothing to do with the real needs of the community. Listen, read, and find out what the many different voices in the community are saying, and only then become a soldier for what you find fair and just.


(I especially like #4. It's not enough to say "people need to treat each other with respect"....THAT goes without saying. Those are just words, not a solution. I could add more to the above list, but maybe later)

Also, my personal list of books recommended for reading:

The Autobiography of Malcolm X - by Alex Haley
The Algiers Motel Incident - by John Hershey
Night - by Elie Wiesel (about life in Nazi concentration camp)
Kaffir Boy - by Mark Mathabane (growing up in apartheid South Africa)

EXCELLENT reply AC. I've copied it because I'd like to post it in another forum where some people justify or minimize the impact of racism in their own little ways. You started quite a thread here!
 
Thanks, Applecruncher, for clarifying that thing about blacks vs. African Americans. It reminded me of an answer I once got from an American Indian friend when I asked if she preferred "Indian" or "Native American." She said very definitely, "Indian! We've been called that for centuries, everybody is used to it, and it isn't the slightest bit offensive."

About your comment:


Why do you assume that hasn't happened? Actually, I have had black friends over, along with everybody else, the last few times I entertained.

But I have to wonder, what would your reaction be if there was a party or something given by the local African American club (that's what they call it here), and a small group of white people attended, and sat huddled together in a corner for the whole evening, without making the slightest effort to mingle?

Sunny,

My assumption was based on the last paragraph of ypur previous post #333. You said you'd like to get to know your black neighbors better, but it wasn't going to happen.

So, there really is an African American club. Wow. I don't like the idea of that, and I would not want to join or even attend a meeting. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth - just like the Caucasian Club or White People's Club would.

Regarding the hypothetical situation you presented, to be honest, white people sitting together at a function and not mingling with black people .....well, I doubt I'd give it any thought. I'd be more focused on the activities going on. If a group of whites attended an event where everyone else is black, I'd assume they had a reason and that they wanted to be there.

So, I answered your hypothetical. But in reality I would not be at a party given by the African American club.
 
What I do not understand about all of this ...is this. Why do we even discuss / debate it ?

If I were to walk into a social gathering, and I knew no one. But, I spotted a table of lets say....black academic looking guys sitting there sipping white wine & discussing next years school curriculum . Another table of white guys gen-X age discussing next years football teams, drinking beer. Another table of millennials sitting there sipping what ever, And yet another table of old,fat, grumpy looking white guys drinking ?? and discussing motorcycles and their travels of the past...........

That last table is where I am going to go sit down......those guys are my 'peeps' :) [as the kids say] And there is not one damn thing wrong with choosing to be with , among, those that we relate to. IMO it is actually just human nature.

Even if the only difference was that there were only two tables...one with white folks, and one with black folks.....I'm going to sit down with the white folks. Again...not one damn thing wrong there either. Now....if I say to my fellow white guys at the table....let's get all the pretzels for us, so those black folks do not get any......then I would be wrong.
 
AC, you might feel more kindly toward our African American club if you knew that absolutely every other identifiable group here has a club; (All except white people; there is no "white club.")

We have clubs for Italian-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Jewish residents, both major political parties, every kind of music and art lovers, people with various diseases and disabilities, even an
LGBT club. And probably a couple of dozen that I've omitted here.

There's also a club whose founder is black, featuring a different terrific jazz musician every month. So there's nothing insulting or exclusionary about an African-American club. They have dances, dinners, go on outings, etc.
 
Sunny,

How about this:

Back in the 90s I did some work for an atty who had a small successful firm. He was a black man in his 70s. One of the projects he needed help with was updating a membership list and sending event invitations for a club ...he was one of the officers. They also had a newsletter.

I forgot the name of the club, it was not identifiable by race. But we got to talking and he told me the criteria for membership:

-married couples only, and either husband or wife must be black (preferably both)
-either husband or wife had to be either an attorney or an M.D.
-adult children of members were automatic members if they were established attorneys or MDs. They had to appear before the board and answer questions.

The club had been established in the 1960s...they had dinners and dances twice a year at the best hotels......he showed me pictures.
 
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Pretty ritzy club! Were those criteria for membership "either" or "and"? In other words, one or both of the couple had to be an attorney or M.D., plus at least one being black, or was just one of those criteria enough to get them in?
 
Pretty ritzy club! Were those criteria for membership "either" or "and"? In other words, one or both of the couple had to be an attorney or M.D., plus at least one being black, or was just one of those criteria enough to get them in?

Both - i.e., either husband or wife had to be an attorney or MD, AND either husband or wife had to be black. This is a large city so they had quite a few members, although some members were from out of town. I'm surprised they didn't specify degrees from certain specific ivy league colleges. :rolleyes:
 
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I grew up in a almost completely "white" city in Canada. When I was a kid I think that I was "predjudiced" just by being totally surrounded by people that looked like me. As I grew up, through my love of cars, I had a good friend who was an asian guy, who was also a car nut, and by spending a lot of time with him and he becoming friends with my other friends, it was strange how he turned into one of us, and NOT the asian guy. Luckily, later, I worked for a large company that hired people of all color and was quite ahead of the times with gender and pay as well. As I worked with these people, and got to know them, again, they kind of turned into just people.

When I became a manager at this corporation, I was shocked one day by a racial slur by one of my employees, I ended up firing this person, not just for the slur, but it was part of the package. As I get older, the less I understand why we have this wedge between different races. I sure wish we just got along a little better.
 
Earlier I talked about how racism is so easy to hide. More about that.

I'm not, nor have I ever been someone who goes thru life blaming white people for all my problems. And I don't think all white people are racists. But I've been in situations where for a long time I didn't think my skin color was an issue/problem, then BAM! something happens or something is said to show that I'm wrong. (One example was the manager of the store where I worked when I was a teenager...I told that story already.)

OR.......a white person will forget (or ignore) that I'm there and say something that will reveal their true feelings. OR they will feign innocence and pretend they saw nothing wrong with what they did/said. OR they truly see nothing wrong with their feelings/statements.

Back in the late 1980s - early 1990s I lived in an apartment complex that had a laundry room in a different building. Sometimes if all the machines were being used, I'd put my basket in the car and drive to a small laundromat nearby. The owner of this laundromat knew me by sight, and we sometimes chatted. One evening I was standing near the dryers waiting for my things to finish drying. I could kinda hear the owner talking to one of the patrons, but I wasn't paying attention to the substance of their conversation. Suddenly I heard him say "As far as I'm concerned all the n*ggers can get on a plane and go live in South Africa. See how they like THAT." Then I heard laughing. (btw at the time apartheid was alive and well in South Africa.)

Did I confront him? No. I just folded my towels, and as I walked out he said "Have a good evening." Yeah.

Even though the scenarios are different, your story reminds me of one a friend of my sister's good friend's husband told at dinner. I believe they are considered middle class, maybe even upper middle class. He had what he thought was a good, close relationship with his White co-workers. He never felt there was any problem or racism with them. Then he found out that they all went golfing together and he was never invited. At that point he really felt it was a racist thing. I don't know if it's because they are or if the golf course frowns on Blacks playing there. Anyway, he felt very bad about it.
 
This may not fit this topic, but anyway when my dad, who is of Japanese heritage, was drafted during WWll, he was sent to Georgia and they had the recruits divided into two groups-Whites and Blacks (I'm not sure they used that term) and when it was done the group with my dad who were mainly of mixed race from Hawaii were still there standing in the middle. The sergeant yelled at them to get in the White group. My dad has always remembered that. Just so weird. Also, during that time, his mother gave the boys and the one girl American type names because of the worry about being not faithful to the U.S.
 

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