Religion in the classroom. A question.
- Thread starter chic
- Start date
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
That is exactly what should happen because it isn't about having religion in schools - it is about making no laws to favour one religion over all others, neither is it to making laws to outlaw certain faiths, or to discriminate against the adherents.
That is why it is very hard to deal with cults and organisations like Scientology. There is no way of defining what actually constitutes a religion. The Church of the Spaghetti Monster is apparently as much a religion as say, the Quakers, until proved to be lacking some essential quality of the recognised religions.
I'm a member of the Uniting Church in Australia and this church is formally recognised in each state via the various state property trusts that own/control church property. These trusts are the only legal identities according to state law.
My little church has an on site multipurpose hall, a 60 place day care centre and 8 self care units for elderly people of limited means. All were built at roughly the same time in the late 70's and the loans and maintenance is on the congregation, or an another structural identity known as the Presbytery. We, the congregation members, own none of it but we keep the doors open and support the local community in that space.
That is something of an oversimplification of the church structures but the point is the Government is only interested in the officially recognised Property Trust and the Board that administers it.
Last edited:
dilettante
Well-known Member
- Location
- Michigan
Why not?
Okay, I didn't know we had so many experts on the US Constitution on here, especially those who don't live here. I've been scolded by some folks for applying US freedoms outside of the US because I think freedom of speech and thought should be universal. So here is what the First Amendment actually says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The "religion" clause has 2 parts, not just one, and they both matter. The interpretation of those two seemingly contradictory phrases, when taken together, is a matter of constant dispute. It was then, and is now. Here's a link that might help you understand the complexity of it.
Overview of The Religion Clause
The link is just to the overview. Multiple other pages to read if you want to drill down.
And as I've said before, the kids don't care.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The "religion" clause has 2 parts, not just one, and they both matter. The interpretation of those two seemingly contradictory phrases, when taken together, is a matter of constant dispute. It was then, and is now. Here's a link that might help you understand the complexity of it.
Overview of The Religion Clause
The link is just to the overview. Multiple other pages to read if you want to drill down.
And as I've said before, the kids don't care.
Last edited:
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
In the name of all that is human
Amen
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
Sounds like you were taking a test? By the way, too lazy to look up, was Abe Lincoln the 17th president?
Mr. Ed
Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
- Location
- Central NY
Schools should include all religions in their curriculum for further division in our society. Imagine, Christians and Muslim classes and study groups, alongside Catholicism, Buddhism, Taoism, agnosticism, and atheism. Why not teach all world views so students can choose for themselves.
The problem with this there would be rivalry and competition to gain the most followers and thus accomplish nothing just like the world is today.
If people had enough sense to forego religion altogether and focus on their own internal growth, there would be no reason for religion to exist. However, most people cannot construe a personalized replacement for their religion because they don't have faith in themselves to realize they don't need religion to know god.
The problem with this there would be rivalry and competition to gain the most followers and thus accomplish nothing just like the world is today.
If people had enough sense to forego religion altogether and focus on their own internal growth, there would be no reason for religion to exist. However, most people cannot construe a personalized replacement for their religion because they don't have faith in themselves to realize they don't need religion to know god.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
I believe that should apply as well to many other questions as those in civil rights, abortion, suicide. Congress should make no law.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
Yes, but what about the rights of your neighbor, who doesn't want his children indoctrinated?
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
Buddhism does not assert that there is a god. Its Eightfold Path consists of eight practices which nicely cover the Ten Commandments and more.
Remy
Well-known Member
- Location
- California, USA
Good lord. Please refer to the title of this thread. It's specific to religion in schools. I didn't start it and I'd hardly call my post an outrage.
Don't get me started on the school system. I could make many points including being put in classes for slow learners which I was not and being bullied by a teacher. I really needed all that considering what I was going through in that house I grew up in.
lol - it's an old joke, and Abe was 16th. But thanks for asking.
gruntlabor
Well-known Member
- Location
- Last Frontier, Age 83
Absolutely. Religion is threaded throughout most human history. Surely, History is a noble subject of study.
Paco Dennis
SF VIP
- Location
- Mid-Missouri
At this stage it is a political argument not a religious one. We will all see the difference in 2025.
It would be great if it went with the equivalent of every other religion's 10 commandments, including the Aztecs'. And it could go with lessons about human sacrifice—you know, the sacrifice of Jesus and other notions of human sacrifice.
Joseph Campbell the guru of mythology compares the different mythologies and speaks of the difference between interpreting these stories literally or abstractly. I think realizing the sameness of our mythologies throughout history and around the world would help a lot. I think being horrified by a God who wants human sacrifice and worshipping such a god, is frightening. How can people live in such denial to think their human sacrifice story is a good one and all the other human sacrifice stories are wrong and completely fail to see the sameness in wanting animals and human sacrifices?
There would be no reason to tell a story about a God telling a man to prove his love by sacrificing his son if the people were not sacrificing like all the people in their day. This kind of thinking came up everywhere because mythology comes out of the human experience, not the revelation of a god.
Murrmurr
SF VIP
- Location
- Sacramento, California
It is literally congress's job to make laws. It's a legislative congress.
The Constitution prohibits congress from making certain types of laws, which is why the Supreme Court decided to overturn Roe v Wade. It's members agreed that, per guidelines within the Constitution, abortion is not a federal matter, and congress should make no law that either condones or prohibits the free exercise of obtaining an abortion.
That is a very interesting prospect. However, I have been reading about the Christian myth of civilization starting in the East and spreading West because it is God's will that his people take dominion of the world. You know manifest destiny. As Rome spread North and then West, I would not claim this is a new movement. But until now we have had serious resistance to the spread.
dilettante
Well-known Member
- Location
- Michigan
This sure looks like an outraged reply to me. Almost... violently so:
I'm not a religious person, but even I can see the value of this. It's probably a minor step toward purging the schools of the cultural marxism which leads to so many woes in society.
Can we make things worse? Sure. But the status quo cannot stand. Perhaps there are alternatives worth considering?
I'd start with annual objective deep psychological examinations as a teaching requirement.
But that specific post is neither here nor there. I was referring to the general outrage of posts here which oppose posting documents important to US culture in classrooms.
I'm not a religious person, but even I can see the value of this. It's probably a minor step toward purging the schools of the cultural marxism which leads to so many woes in society.
Can we make things worse? Sure. But the status quo cannot stand. Perhaps there are alternatives worth considering?
I'd start with annual objective deep psychological examinations as a teaching requirement.
Whoo, there are two ways to have social order, culture, or authority over the people? China and Korea seem to be exercising authoritarian control and both are fearful of resistance to authoritarian control. If the alternative is culture, how is that culture developed and transmitted? How is a nation united and made strong? What do the defenders of our liberty and justice need to know?
Murrmurr
SF VIP
- Location
- Sacramento, California
There are secular schools from kindergarten to university.
The US has a habit of swinging from one extreme to the opposite extreme. Posting the 10 Commandments in schools is not the cure for Marxist and socialist leanings in the overall curriculum.
Marxism, socialism, capitalism, the differences between a democracy and a republic, and the nuances of dictatorship versus authoritarianism; all that should be taught specifically in high-school level civics and gov't classes. Religion as a national governing doctrine belongs in there as well, but religion as an individual practice does not.
I was going to leave the forum thinking people didn't care about education and I am so excited to see I am wrong.
I am very opinionated about the importance of schools transmitting a culture that defends our liberty and justice and how that is done. I wasn't always so opposed to Christianity until research revealed the problem of Christian control of education. In 1958 the US dropped education for good moral judgment (based on classical literature) and left moral training to the church. I don't think our present education could make things worse. If this problem is not corrected before our generation dies, it will be the end of the democracy we inherited because only when democracy is defended in the classroom, is it defended.
Your recommended solution looks terrible to me.
How is that not authoritarian? Our private lives need to remain private. I must not have a good understanding of your idea.
dilettante
Well-known Member
- Location
- Michigan
What is cultural Marxism? | GotQuestions.org
Cultural Marxism can be a controversial term—some assert there’s no such thing, and others use the term as a catch-all for anything they see as undermining society. In short, cultural Marxism is a revolutionary leftist idea that traditional culture is the source of oppression in the modern world. Cultural Marxism is often linked to an insistence upon political correctness, multiculturalism, and perpetual attacks on the foundations of culture: the nuclear family, marriage, patriotism, traditional morality, law and order, etc. Cultural Marxists are assumed to be committed to establishing economic Marxism, in which case their cultural attacks are a necessary preparation for their ultimate goal.
dilettante
Well-known Member
- Location
- Michigan
I fail to see what is controversial about requiring sanity of those entrusted to shape the minds of children.Your recommended solution looks terrible to me.
Many have been driven mad, either due to personal background and baggage or inculcation with antisocial philosophies. They have learned to cover this while nobody is looking, probably in substantial part through conditioning by toxic university environments.