I agree, it's hard to shake all the ingrained childhood indoctrination about religion. I do the same as you though AS, I have my own belief system, which is a kind of mix of many things what work for me, bits of different things I've tried.
Religion
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
I agree, it's hard to shake all the ingrained childhood indoctrination about religion. I do the same as you though AS, I have my own belief system, which is a kind of mix of many things what work for me, bits of different things I've tried.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
What if there is no heaven or Hell? Does that mean that all morality goes out the window?
Surely the life that is well lived is it's own reward for the individual and those around him.
What need is there for more?
Surely the life that is well lived is it's own reward for the individual and those around him.
What need is there for more?
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
Then you are Agostic... like me. I confess to saying the Lord's Prayor whenever I take off in an airplane.. Or saying "Thank you Jesus" when receiving a good result to a bad situation. However, I don't really believe it... but then again, I don't NOT believe it.
I have looked into the Universal Unitarian Church. They are God or Spirit centered... however they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.. nor do they believe in the Trinity. They believe in ONE Creator or God.. It was attractive because it allowed me to be spiritual and have a belief system, without the Dogma of Christianity.... BUT..... true to my Agnostic self.. I still cannot completely shake the Jesus thing either... such is my dilema.
I think there probably was a Jesus and he was a good guy, a prophet. But nothing more. Today he would be a liberal which makes it funny that all the fundamentalists are right wing.
I believe there is 'something' but more like the spirits of all living things together are what is 'god/ess'. I believe in karma and that maybe you get what you deserve in this life or in maybe a reincarnation into the next. I'm open.
Why do people care if we believe that Jesus is the way? It seems that some people take offense to it and preach louder and longer than any evangelist.
I don't understand it. I am not offended by the beliefs of others. I'm not a judge. I don't push my faith on anyone..instead, I try to live my life in a way that shines. I mean...actions speak louder than words.
Everyone has the right to believe the way they wish.
Why can't people live their own lives without being criticized for what they believe in.
Well, I don't think that's going to happen...and that's why there are wars and fighting around the globe.
I don't understand it. I am not offended by the beliefs of others. I'm not a judge. I don't push my faith on anyone..instead, I try to live my life in a way that shines. I mean...actions speak louder than words.
Everyone has the right to believe the way they wish.
Why can't people live their own lives without being criticized for what they believe in.
Well, I don't think that's going to happen...and that's why there are wars and fighting around the globe.
I don't have any guilt. Not that I don't help people, I do.
I went to the Baptist church almost all my life.
The preacher would leave you shaking in your boots (when I was a kid) for a few hours.
I was looking at a girl walking down the street and our preacher said to quit looking at her with lust in your eye's.
I started seeing thru this. I didn't rebel, just took it like a grain of salt.
I also thought about my switching the duck and chicken eggs on the farm. I sinned and are going to hell. Hell is going to be full.
Oh: the baby ducks and chickens figured out who their parents were after the momma duck tried to take a baby chick swimming.
My poor parents.
I went to the Baptist church almost all my life.
The preacher would leave you shaking in your boots (when I was a kid) for a few hours.
I was looking at a girl walking down the street and our preacher said to quit looking at her with lust in your eye's.
I started seeing thru this. I didn't rebel, just took it like a grain of salt.
I also thought about my switching the duck and chicken eggs on the farm. I sinned and are going to hell. Hell is going to be full.
Oh: the baby ducks and chickens figured out who their parents were after the momma duck tried to take a baby chick swimming.
My poor parents.
Denise1952
Well-known Member
You are a naughty one Darroll, yes, your poor parents, LOL!!
Raven
Senior Member
- Location
- eastern Canada
I always wonder why atheists feel the need to make known their non-beliefs and lack of Faith.
I believe in a higher power, which to me is God, but I would never start a topic on a forum about
religion. It is personal and private for me.
I don't try to change anyone's mind so why do atheists?
They can believe whatever they wish.
Calling someone a name like idiot because they have faith is rude and uncalled for.
We lost our youngest son, and that is a wound that never heals and a pain that never
goes away.
If believing he is in a better place and at peace helps to keep me somewhat sane and able
to go on each day how does that concern anyone else?
When people are in trouble or danger they want help from God but only until everything is
fine again.
All of us stumble around and do things that are wrong at times, caused by our choices in life.
Very few people are perfect, at least I don't know any.
I believe in a higher power, which to me is God, but I would never start a topic on a forum about
religion. It is personal and private for me.
I don't try to change anyone's mind so why do atheists?
They can believe whatever they wish.
Calling someone a name like idiot because they have faith is rude and uncalled for.
We lost our youngest son, and that is a wound that never heals and a pain that never
goes away.
If believing he is in a better place and at peace helps to keep me somewhat sane and able
to go on each day how does that concern anyone else?
When people are in trouble or danger they want help from God but only until everything is
fine again.
All of us stumble around and do things that are wrong at times, caused by our choices in life.
Very few people are perfect, at least I don't know any.
SifuPhil
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- Pennsylvania, USA
Probably for the same reasons that believers make known their beliefs.
As long as that works for you, that's fine. Some others feel the need to broadcast their (non-) beliefs.
But you're comparing one person - yourself - with an entire group of people.
Agreed.
It doesn't.
Funny how that goes, isn't it?
Well, now you know me.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
Lon, I don't think Misty was at all disrespectful. She asked a question and suggested that not all Christians are horrible people. I have lots of Christian Mennonite family members who are lovely people that would be more than willing to help you if you were in a hard place. And they are farmers and hardworking people and have all managed to raise families with no aid from anyone, so definitely not idiots. They simply have a different belief system.
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
By the same token.... this goes for people in ALL belief systems.. There is no corner on the "goodness" market. The problem arises with so many veiled statements that somehow... "it's just better to be Christian"....
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
You are very right there Darroll except that I would have worded it about faith rather than belief.
Everyone places their faith and trust in something, whether that be money in the bank, in the goodness of mankind, some higher power, scientific knowledge or in your (our) own ability to manage one's own life and protect our families.
Belief is about facts we are convinced are true, with or without supporting facts. Examples include believing in the truth of various conspiracy theories, that President Obama was born in Kenya, the Virgin birth of Jesus and the moral superiority of one's own nation compared to others.
Faith can shift it's foundation. We call that conversion or losing one's faith (in the religious sense) but everyone anchors their faith to something. Beliefs are more like stories we tell ourselves are true.
SifuPhil
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- Pennsylvania, USA
I always thought that belief without facts was faith ...
The anchor you speak of could be as useless as a buoy in a rough sea. I think most people anchor their faith on belief.
I see in dictionary definitions that belief and faith mean the same thing and are interchangeable.
i.e. people have faith in their belief, or people believe in their faith. There are no facts and there is no anchor - it's all theory and a product of the mind - someone's mind. Philosophy and religion are merely assortments of ideas.
i.e. people have faith in their belief, or people believe in their faith. There are no facts and there is no anchor - it's all theory and a product of the mind - someone's mind. Philosophy and religion are merely assortments of ideas.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Reading your post Cookie I surmise that you put your faith (aka trust) in dictionaries and that you believe that philosophy and religion are analogous concepts.
My statement is based on a hunch, not facts, and I wouldn't bet my house on being correct. I don't believe that my statement is correct but I think that there is a possibility that it might be. Cookie may choose to confirm or refute my statement and I may then change my mind.
Not trying to change your mind - dictionaries and reference books are as good as anything, but I don't take them too seriously, as definitions vary.
Since philosophy and religion are products of the human mind I would call them systems of belief which are like a language with it's own alphabet and vocabulary or dogma. That is different from knowing. You don't need a religion or faith or belief to know something. You just do. e.g. "this is sweet, or this is wet". I know I am breathing, I don't need to believe it. So I guess I would put belief and faith and trust into the same barrel as the word religion.
Since philosophy and religion are products of the human mind I would call them systems of belief which are like a language with it's own alphabet and vocabulary or dogma. That is different from knowing. You don't need a religion or faith or belief to know something. You just do. e.g. "this is sweet, or this is wet". I know I am breathing, I don't need to believe it. So I guess I would put belief and faith and trust into the same barrel as the word religion.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I'm playing with words, Cookie. I'm not trying to change your mind either, just exploring ideas.
Believing as you do that "philosophy and religion are products of the human mind" you go on to deduce or extrapolate that religion is something that encompasses the concepts of "belief and faith and trust". I would agree with this statement but I believe that the same three concepts exist outside of religious systems too.
You seem to suggest that "knowing" is about things that can be demonstrated or proven. Knowledge is rooted in the senses? What about logic and reasoning?
I agree that of course those three concepts exist outside religious systems. The closest thing I can think of is that knowing is based on direct personal experience. Eg. I know that I am looking at a bottle of water. I don't need to think about it. It's there - so yes, the sense of sight. Or when you burn a piece of paper. You reason that if you do it again, under the same conditions, the paper will burn. That is your logical conclusion.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
You are saying that knowledge is largely based on experience?
What if I say that I have had experiences that inform my faith?
Bali out anytime you think that this dialogue is getting ridiculous.
It's just a thought experiment and not a debate.
What if I say that I have had experiences that inform my faith?
Bali out anytime you think that this dialogue is getting ridiculous.
It's just a thought experiment and not a debate.
It must be. Since everything we read or learn is based on another person's experience, is written about in textbooks or experiments. I would call it information, not knowledge. We can choose to believe that information (which may or may not be true) or not. Some sources can be trusted or are reputable, others not.
In the case of medicine, we trust our doctor and believe in western medicine, we have faith in the drug, but we won't actually know if it works until we are cured.
We know the environment is getting ruined because we see the devastation on the beaches with our own eyes and breathe the smog into our lungs.
In the case of medicine, we trust our doctor and believe in western medicine, we have faith in the drug, but we won't actually know if it works until we are cured.
We know the environment is getting ruined because we see the devastation on the beaches with our own eyes and breathe the smog into our lungs.
I'm unfamiliar with this expression. Could you give a short explanation?
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I prefer not to at length, at least not here, but there is a kind of knowing that seems to come from within, that is unconnected to our belief systems and which is totally surprising and counter intuitive. It rocks the foundations of our certainties.
I was an atheist at one time. I put my faith in science and believed that science would eventually unravel all the mysteries of life, the universe and everything. I argued this position to anyone who would listen to me. One day, at an inservice training session for school counsellors I had an internal experience that spun me around 540o anticlockwise. I was 33 years old at the time.
I am still a person with high regard for science and the scientific method but now I am also a person who puts her faith in the way of life taught by Jesus of Nazareth. That does not mean that I believe everything that I read in the scriptures nor does it mean that I have parked my mind on the steps outside my church. I think for myself and follow my own conscience, which at my age, I hope is an informed one.
I am still the person that I always was but life is brighter and richer now and I believe in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all of humanity. Science and the book of Genesis are in agreement on that point.
I was an atheist at one time. I put my faith in science and believed that science would eventually unravel all the mysteries of life, the universe and everything. I argued this position to anyone who would listen to me. One day, at an inservice training session for school counsellors I had an internal experience that spun me around 540o anticlockwise. I was 33 years old at the time.
I am still a person with high regard for science and the scientific method but now I am also a person who puts her faith in the way of life taught by Jesus of Nazareth. That does not mean that I believe everything that I read in the scriptures nor does it mean that I have parked my mind on the steps outside my church. I think for myself and follow my own conscience, which at my age, I hope is an informed one.
I am still the person that I always was but life is brighter and richer now and I believe in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all of humanity. Science and the book of Genesis are in agreement on that point.
I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you for sharing that with me. I'm glad your faith stems from personal experience and you are an independent thinker.
I'm not an atheist, nor am I a religious person in that I don't go in for church services, doctrine or scriptures but have in the past been involved in eastern spirituality. I think you are very fortunate to know where you are on this subject and are enjoying a better life because of it. I've enjoyed our discussion and hope it wasn't turning into a debate. Maybe to continue another time.
I'm not an atheist, nor am I a religious person in that I don't go in for church services, doctrine or scriptures but have in the past been involved in eastern spirituality. I think you are very fortunate to know where you are on this subject and are enjoying a better life because of it. I've enjoyed our discussion and hope it wasn't turning into a debate. Maybe to continue another time.