Says this church sign "...Facts don't matter" ?????

jerry old said:
Has it been determined that this is a 'real' sign, with the message posted sanctioned by the church hierarchy?
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The church is real but no confirmation that the message on the sign is real.
Some anonymous person online compared various definitions of "Fact" and then compared those with the churches doctrine.

For anyone interested, here is how he explains it:

"As for the message on the sign itself, I will say that I am not a fan of it because it is prone to misunderstanding. That said, I do believe there is a rather obvious charitable interpretation.

The key is to recognize that the word “fact” is not only defined in common parlance as a true claim, it also is sometimes defined as
a claim that is believed to be true. For example, Dictionary.com offers the following as their fourth definition of “fact”: “something said to be true or supposed to have happened.” The dictionary then gives this example: “The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.” In this usage, a “fact” is a claim which is presented as true but which may actually be false.

As for the word “faith”, that refers to the act of exercising trust in someone or something.

And so, we can now finally close in on our interpretation. The church sign is saying the following:

“If you have sufficient trust in someone or something, apparent counter-evidence to that testimonial witness will not be sufficient to overwhelm your trust in it.”

And that, it turns out, is a perfectly sensible claim. So here’s the lesson: before you make fun of the church sign, try interpreting it charitably."
 
Note: For right or wrong, the shadows on the sign look more like they were applied with a photoshop brush. There is one way to find out though - call the church and ask.
 

Is your faith big enough that facts do not matter? Faith is believing in something that defies logic and reason. Faith is the veil by which believers commune with God as God is known by the believer. It is a fact I am God as God is me. there is no difference.

Is what I experience faith or something much greater? Perhaps spiritual? What kind of spirit, I assume it is the spirit of God based on the resurrection of Jesus. I too experienced a resurrection from my former self to a spiritual vessel of the God I serve.
 
I read it as simply a gem-like aphorism. In the End, all that matters is Faith, that will be the key to unlocking Heaven's gate, for those metaphorically inclined.
 
Mr. Ed said:
...Faith is believing in something that defies logic and reason.
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Faith defies logic and reason? Who says? Not me.
My faith is based on logic, reason, knowledge, facts, experiences, using all of my senses, and believing in evidence not seen.

Give me a scientific definition of how Love was created or came into being.
And I don't mean Attraction or Lust nor the feeling brought on by Dopamine and other hormonal shifts. That's not Love.
 
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ohioboy said:
I read it as simply a gem-like aphorism. In the End, all that matters is Faith, that will be the key to unlocking Heaven's gate, for those metaphorically inclined.
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:unsure:hmm. Metaphorically inclined?
What is the one thing used to mean another thing exactly?

Do you mean like a Proverb? Or a Parable?
Yes, those are occasionally used to make a point and clearly pointed out to be taken "metaphorically"
 
Lara said:
Faith defies logic and reason? Who says? You.
But not me. My faith is based on logic, reason, knowledge, facts, experiences, using all of my senses, and more

Give me a scientific definition of how Love was created or came into being.
And I don't mean Attraction or Lust nor the feeling brought on by Dopamine and other hormonal shifts. That's not Love.
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Faith is believing when common sense tells you not to. From Miracle on 34th St.

susie.jpg
 
Love, like faith, is a choice and a commitment. So is disbelief.
Humanity is, and I'm struggling for a neutral word here, designed for freedom of choice.

I once chose belief in the scientific method and the separation of science and religion as my guiding lights in life. My choice did not lead me to 'green pastures" especially when my father died suddenly and my sister's first baby died in the womb and was still born. It was pretty useless when her second was born at 28 weeks and her little life hung in the balance. I found myself to be an empty vessel unable to comfort someone I loved very dearly.

Roughly 10 years later I was (metaphorically speaking) tapped on the shoulder by the God that I had been denying for years. He, she, it (there should be a better pronoun) called me by name and I was ready by then to answer in the affirmative. I made my choice and commitment to the unknown presence and from that day I was a changed person. In religious language I was reborn, renewed and reshaped.

I have sometimes thought that I may be deluded about that experience. Doubt and faith can exist together in the same person but then I examine my life and my growth as a person and that is surety enough for me.

It is like a marriage commitment. As a couple of twenty year olds my husband and I made our vows to each other and entered into marriage. There have been times when I was not happy and thought about leaving but then I remembered my vows and got over myself. We have now been together in good times and in bad for nearly 59 years and are more committed than when we were first wed. Science and the scientific method have played no significant part in the success of our relationship. That is not to say that I have abandoned my trust in modernity. I haven't. I simply chose to stay because I was free, free to leave. Does that make sense to anyone?

Faith and commitment to God can grow over the years or it can shrivel and die. Church is just the place where the committed gather to share their faith, to rejoice and to learn. I am not the least concerned about what happens after I die, nor the manner of my death. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life because I am held in the palm of my redeemer God.
 
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Warrigal said:
Love, like faith, is a choice and a commitment. So is disbelief.
Humanity is, and I'm struggling for a neutral word here, designed for freedom of choice.

I once chose belief in the scientific method and the separation of science and religion as my guiding lights in life. My choice did not lead me to 'green pastures" especially when my father died suddenly and my sister's first baby died in the womb and was still born. It was pretty useless when her second was born at 28 weeks and her little life hung in the balance. I found myself to be an empty vessel unable to comfort someone I loved very dearly.

Roughly 10 years later I was (metaphorically speaking) tapped on the shoulder by the God that I had been denying for years. He, she, it (there should be a better pronoun) called me by name and I was ready by then to answer in the affirmative. I made my choice and commitment to the unknown presence and from that day I was a changed person. In religious language I was reborn, renewed and reshaped.

I have sometimes thought that I may be deluded about that experience. Doubt and faith can exist together in the same person but then I examine my life and my growth as a person and that is surety enough for me.

It is like a marriage commitment. As a couple of twenty year olds my husband and I made our vows to each other and entered into marriage. There have been times when I was not happy and thought about leaving but then I remembered my vows and got over myself. We have now been together in good times and in bad for nearly 59 years and are more committed than when we were first wed. Science and the scientific method have played no significant part in the success of our relationship. That is not to say that I have abandoned my trust in modernity. I haven't. I simply chose to stay because I was free, free to leave. Does that make sense to anyone?

Faith and commitment to God can grow over the years or it can shrivel and die. Church is just the place where the committed gather to share their faith, to rejoice and to learn. I am not the least concerned about what happens after I die, nor the manner of my death. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life because I am held in the palm of my redeemer God.
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Well penned, Warrigal. A beautiful testimony of your faith. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us.
 
win231 said:
That sign is one of the reasons why I find religion so entertaining & amusing.
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He Gotcha' Win! 🤪 That's exactly what the internet sign-creator wanted you to think when he photoshopped the sign. Whether he did or not, you never know on the internet. I think @JonDouglas is right...I also noticed the funky shadows applied by paintbrush.
 
Lara said:
:unsure:hmm. Metaphorically inclined?
What is the one thing used to mean another thing exactly?

Do you mean like a Proverb? Or a Parable?
Yes, those are occasionally used to make a point and clearly pointed out to be taken "metaphorically"
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"The key to unlock the gates of heaven is Faith"... is the metaphor, as heaven has no actual gates or locks, as we all know. There are some who like metaphors and similie's than others, I would think.

"She walks in beauty like the night" Byron's widely quoted similie. I enjoy such, but some don't, or find them hard to understand?
 
Lara said:
He Gotcha' Win! 🤪 That's exactly what the internet sign-creator wanted you to think when he photoshopped the sign. Whether he did or not, you never know on the internet. I think @JonDouglas is right...I also noticed the funky shadows applied by paintbrush.
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Why do you think the sign was photoshopped? It merely states words?
 
ohioboy said:
"The key to unlock the gates of heaven is Faith"... is the metaphor, as heaven has no actual gates or locks, as we all know. There are some who like metaphors and similie's than others, I would think.

"She walks in beauty like the night" Byron's widely quoted similie. I enjoy such, but some don't, or find them hard to understand?
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I love the way metaphors enrich literature. They are not much use in science although the vision described in Kekule's dream was a very useful metaphor in the eventual understanding of the structure of the benzene ring.
 
Victor said:
Really, really stupid. I understand the sign. To conservative faithful believers, it is true.
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God Will Save Me​

renderTimingPixel.png

A big storm approaches. The weatherman urges everyone to get out of town. The priest says, "I won't worry, God will save me".
The morning of the storm, the police go through the neighbourhood with a sound truck telling everyone to evacuate. The priest says "I won't worry, God will save me".
The storm drains back up and there is an inch of water standing in the street. A fire truck comes by to pick up the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises another foot. A National Guard truck comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises some more. The priest is forced up to his roof. A boat comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises higher. The priest is forced up to the very top of his roof. A helicopter comes to rescue the priest. He shouts up at them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises above his house, and the priest drowns.
When he gets up to heaven he says to God "I've been your faithful servant ever since I was born! Why didn't you save me?"
God replies "First I sent you a fire truck, then the national guard, then a boat, and then a helicopter. What more do you want from me?"
 
Warrigal said:
Love, like faith, is a choice and a commitment. So is disbelief.
Humanity is, and I'm struggling for a neutral word here, designed for freedom of choice.

I once chose belief in the scientific method and the separation of science and religion as my guiding lights in life. My choice did not lead me to 'green pastures" especially when my father died suddenly and my sister's first baby died in the womb and was still born. It was pretty useless when her second was born at 28 weeks and her little life hung in the balance. I found myself to be an empty vessel unable to comfort someone I loved very dearly.

Roughly 10 years later I was (metaphorically speaking) tapped on the shoulder by the God that I had been denying for years. He, she, it (there should be a better pronoun) called me by name and I was ready by then to answer in the affirmative. I made my choice and commitment to the unknown presence and from that day I was a changed person. In religious language I was reborn, renewed and reshaped.

I have sometimes thought that I may be deluded about that experience. Doubt and faith can exist together in the same person but then I examine my life and my growth as a person and that is surety enough for me.

It is like a marriage commitment. As a couple of twenty year olds my husband and I made our vows to each other and entered into marriage. There have been times when I was not happy and thought about leaving but then I remembered my vows and got over myself. We have now been together in good times and in bad for nearly 59 years and are more committed than when we were first wed. Science and the scientific method have played no significant part in the success of our relationship. That is not to say that I have abandoned my trust in modernity. I haven't. I simply chose to stay because I was free, free to leave. Does that make sense to anyone?

Faith and commitment to God can grow over the years or it can shrivel and die. Church is just the place where the committed gather to share their faith, to rejoice and to learn. I am not the least concerned about what happens after I die, nor the manner of my death. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life because I am held in the palm of my redeemer God.
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Very well said.
 
Lara said:
Give me a scientific definition of how Love was created or came into being.
Lara said:
Faith defies logic and reason? Who says? Not me.
My faith is based on logic, reason, knowledge, facts, experiences, using all of my senses, and believing in evidence not seen.
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You answered your own question. There is no scientific definition for faith because faith is subjective to individual belief and practices. My faith is real to me, however, most likely, other people's concept of faith is designed to meet their needs. Which may or may not be similar to yours or mine. Faith is real for those who have it. For those without faith all it takes is to believe.
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Good morning :)
It's a new day so I think I'll just ease on out
of this discussion now. But I've enjoyed it. Good one.
Just don't want to overstay my welcome or did I :LOL:
d57ddbf7e89a0fc9b5819fc89f4fa3c3.jpg
 
jerry old said:
Has it been determined that this is a 'real' sign, with the message posted sanctioned by the church hierarchy?
Click to expand...
The sign could perhaps be interpreted as I suggested above, as one thing I'm told science has now agreed upon, there will never be answers to some scientific questions, as "systems" of all kinds, especially at the sub atomic level, are matters of probability, not certainty, or possible to know as simple "facts"!
 
Colleen said:
I saw an article the other day about a "pastor" that is telling his flock that masks are NOT allowed in church and if anyone comes with a mask, they will be asked to leave!
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I would have left this note for the pastor:

Matthew 4:5-7
Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
 

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