That's what I told him. She may not even notice she is being "shunned" or if she does is busy thanking her lucky stars for it! Give the girl a break. Shun away.
Striking back in relationships, (no not physically obviously)
- Thread starter grahamg
- Start date
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
Look you may well be right, and in truth I'm such a softie, particularly when it comes to my own child, I won't do what I'm suggesting anyway, (she won't/can't fully appreciate how her life has enriched mine, in spite of the troubles).
The point of my OP though is to "try to get on the front foot psychologically", and I must admit if you choose to follow the link to the radio interview I posted you'll find the most high profile fathers rights campaigner in the UK agreeing with your views not mine, (whilst very bluntly pointing out the pitfalls in our family law system).
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grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
Now you've said that I may well do, just so I can live up to your expectations of me, (just as our forum friend had weakened my arguments too!
).
Knight
Well-known Member
The reference you gave focuses on legal matters. You haven't expressed any legal problems with your daughter. Your posts focus on her "hating" you as a child & ignoring you as an adult. So to "win" is it your idea is to ignore her ? If so do you really think that will work?
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
Yes, my reference relates to legal matters, but I hope someone is interested enough in hearing the forthright views provided by someone steeped in the UK family law debacle(?).
No, I don't have any legal troubles with my daughter, and can't really understand why you came up with that interpretation from anything I've said, and furthermore, though I could try using our family law system in order to achieve contact with my grandchildren I won't be putting my daughter through that under any circumstances either, (clear enough now?).
Btw I did mean it when I said you'd argued your points well!
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Knight
Well-known Member
Why would you post about being vindictive as in "striking back", then toss in reference to legal issues that males face in the UK? Maybe not mixing the two [ your relationship with your daughter] & the hope to generate interest in the problems males have with parental rights & the laws in the UK.Yes, my reference relates to legal matters, but I hope someone is interested enough in hearing the forth rights views provided by someone steeped in the UK family law debacle(?).
No, I don't have any legal troubles with my daughter, and can't really understand why you came up with that interpretation from anything I've said, and furthermore, though I could try using our family law system in order to achieve contact with my grandchildren I won't be putting my daughter through that under any circumstances either, (clear enough now?).
Btw I did mean it when I said you'd argued your points well!
Now you add something about your grandchildren? This new addition of grandchildren generates curiosity. Is your daughter denying you that privilege ?
Chris21E
Member
- Location
- California
Trying hard to have a relationship does not always work the way one envisions.
A person I knew grew up full family no break up in the family structure and yet for some reason they walked away never looked back.
I ask why not reach out? The response they feel grown up and no need to connect.
Some connect to one or both some do not. My my parents died when I was a young child so not something I deal with.
A child is raised to be on their own and you hope for the best.
As a teacher 4th to 7th graders I found they were more connected to me then their parents at times, being a parent I'm guessing is not a popular career.
I found that Not trying to gain their approval worked a lot better, I got my shares of I hate you, in the end, was there to make sure that they did not get hurt, this was a college for kids Electronics course, I ended up being the most loved and respected teacher.
How...try not to be popular be yourself
A person I knew grew up full family no break up in the family structure and yet for some reason they walked away never looked back.
I ask why not reach out? The response they feel grown up and no need to connect.
Some connect to one or both some do not. My my parents died when I was a young child so not something I deal with.
A child is raised to be on their own and you hope for the best.
As a teacher 4th to 7th graders I found they were more connected to me then their parents at times, being a parent I'm guessing is not a popular career.
I found that Not trying to gain their approval worked a lot better, I got my shares of I hate you, in the end, was there to make sure that they did not get hurt, this was a college for kids Electronics course, I ended up being the most loved and respected teacher.
How...try not to be popular be yourself
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
The reason I do so is the same as stated earlier and in the OP, to assist others being similarly marginalised for no good reason, (by the way my "striking back" by shunning a daughter who has shunned me, following years of forbearance of the treatment I've received whilst doing my level best isn't vindictiveness in my view).
If you were to listen to Matt O'Connor explaining his views on family law, and the advice he and F4J dole out daily to so many dads, (or grandparents I'd guess), you will hear him saying it becomes an argument about the behaviour of the father if they try to answer or respond to unjust comments when going through the court system, just as I'd say you are doing when I mentioned my grandchildren, (so if you don't mind I won't enlighten you further on that aspect?).
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
You make many good points.
Are you a parent too?
Chris21E
Member
- Location
- California
In a way... Parents rejection hurts, can't take it to heart
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
Great, I think I understand, and your stance about not taking things to heart mirrors Matt O'Connors views, or advice to other dads I believe, (though he's honest enough he couldn't manage to follow it himself!).
Leonie
Member
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
I like this one gramahg.
Sometimes this is the only way. I don't see it as striking back, more of putting oneself first, maybe for the first time.
Whatever you decide to do will be the right thing for you. No one else can really understand your particular situation no matter how much they might imagine they do. Whatever you decide to do I hope it works for you - mate.
And I agree with you that fathers often get a bad deal in family law situations, as do paternal grandparents. In the case of grandparents, I heard it explained in these terms by one of those talk-back radio lawyers here ... Children have the right to know their grandparents, the grandparents don't necessarily have the right to know their grandchildren.
Chris21E
Member
- Location
- California
I'm just trying not to go there, not being evasive. Fully get how laws and other issues make things worse...wishing you we'll and peace I understand more than one can say...
Chris21E
Member
- Location
- California
I'm reminded of the Vietnam War photo of a child running after being hit by a chemical that burned them. One can feel that way at times,
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
A very stark photo of course, and thankfully the child grew up into a very articulate woman didn't she, in spite of everything she'd been through.
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
That placard does seem to sum up what goes on in many cases doesn't it, and thank you for your kind words.View attachment 163402
I like this one grahamg.
Sometimes this is the only way. I don't see it as striking back, more of putting oneself first, maybe for the first time.
Whatever you decide to do will be the right thing for you. No one else can really understand your particular situation no matter how much they might imagine they do. Whatever you decide to do I hope it works for you - mate.
And I agree with you that fathers often get a bad deal in family law situations, as do paternal grandparents. In the case of grandparents, I heard it explained in these terms by one of those talk-back radio lawyers here ... Children have the right to know their grandparents, the grandparents don't necessarily have the right to know their grandchildren.
Perhaps I've used this forum enough to express my views on father's rights, because fairly obviously there will always be a range of views, different people's experiences etc. and there are other forums where they specifically deal with these situations such as the F4J website and forum, though it sounds pretty depressing what is still going on from the comments Matt O'Connor has made about it all nowadays).
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Chris21E
Member
- Location
- California
Yes...so very true
Knight
Well-known Member
Now you add something about your grandchildren? This new addition of grandchildren generates curiosity. Is your daughter denying you that privilege ?The reason I do so is the same as stated earlier and in the OP, to assist others being similarly marginalised for no good reason, (by the way my "striking back" by shunning a daughter who has shunned me, following years of forbearance of the treatment I've received whilst doing my level best isn't vindictiveness in my view).
If you were to listen to Matt O'Connor explaining his views on family law, and the advice he and F4J dole out daily to so many dads, (or grandparents I'd guess), you will hear him saying it becomes an argument about the behaviour of the father if they try to answer or respond to unjust comments when going through the court system, just as I'd say you are doing when I mentioned my grandchildren, (so if you don't mind I won't enlighten you further on that aspect?).
I don't mind since it seems to be a question you aren't comfortable answering.
As for the legal issues parents face IMO that is another topic entirely.
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
I'm not on trial here, but you jump to conclusions that are not warranted when you suggest I'm not comfortable answering any questions. I am not uncomfortable in any way concerning my grandchildren, nor my decision never to involve my daughter in any litigation so far as contact with them, and yet you've continued to pursue the issue.
I'm suggesting in other posts I've raised issues about fathers too often here, (obviously uncomfortable issues for other forum members on this thread, and many other thread concerning fathers/parents rights).
Your "bloodhound" tendencies, (as I'm fairly sure they are), a strong desire you seem to wish to foster and develop, to promote the idea I'm responsible for any breakdown in my interpersonal relationships, (perhaps solely respinsible), is evidence in my view why decent parents should have a rebuttable presumption in favour of contact with their children, (note "decent parents" only, not where there are any issues of abuse, and I can categorically state there were never any such accusations made by my ex. against me, nor vice versa!).
Finally although you seem to think differently I don't think I've abandoned the right to claim my OP has elements contained within it relating to family law, (or at least comments saying I wish to help other parents/fathers in similar circumstances).
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Knight
Well-known Member
Asking question trying to discover why you thought about striking back at a 37 year old daughter & apparently not having a good enough relationship with that daughter that you inject something about not using the legal system to force visitation rights with your grandchildren.
No you aren't on trial, but when you brought something up then not wanting to explain I was OK with that. This latest reply of yours IMO is less than civil and leads me to think your communication with your daughter early on may have been the same.
As for parental rights I think most here are past raising children so while well intentioned various threads about what is bothering you about parental rights don't interest me. Others may well be interested, maybe several will respond asking you to start a thread about that as a singular topic.
On Children by Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Kahlil Gibran
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
Okay, apologies for any uncivility shown, but again dont jump to conclusions that I behaved badly so far as my daughter is concerned, and even if I had I demand the right for decent parents to behave in the manner they believe is appropriate in relation to their children, (in fact a Canadian lawyer called Goldwater, stated her views on the importance of privacy in close interpersonal relationships, so I'm interpreting that to mean its really no one else's business where there are no issues of child abuse to concern the courts).
I hope you noticed this first couple of lines in the post following yours, taken from a poem, (and put forward by a professional in family relations perhaps?), because it is exactly this I'm objecting to, and will never accept, quote:
"
On Children by Kahlil Gibran
"Your children are not your children."
My comments are:
"If your children are/were not your children as Kahlil Gibran suggests then you're arguing in favour of mixing children or babies up when the mother leaves hospital, (because the biological link means nothing is the idea behind this kind of thinking I believe)."
Finally as I said earlier on the thread, "maybe I've brought up the subject of fathers/parental rights often enough on this forum, and should cease"!
grahamg
Old codger
- Location
- South of Manchester, UK
Quote, (in no particular order):
On Children by Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Kahlil Gibran
"You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth" break "Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness".....
My responses, "Have we no choice as parents, to do or not do as Kahlil Gibran suggests"?
My parents had differing views on education for example, my mother believing "education is the answer", whilst my father did not really believe in formal education beyond the need to read, write and do maths, preferring instead " the learning you gained in life, through and along the back country roads", (my mother won that battle largely though). Which one was bending in the right direction, or were either of them bending at all, just doing what they believed was best, "without interference"?
Quote:
"You may give them your love but not your thoughts",....
My comments, (though where to start on this one!):
I "may" give my child love according to Kahlil Gibran, suggest to me they think love is something you just turn on like a tap, (and presumably can turn off likewise), plus it condescending in my view, and telling patents what to think whilst telling us at the same not to try to guide our own children, (oh sorry, they're not "our children" of course, my mistake"!).
What else to say, well I suppose you can jettison all religious thought, like "do unto other as you would be done unto", (telling kids that would be wrong, because Kahlil says they've already got their own thoughts on the matter). My ex. was atheist, and yet at the same time told my daughter "she knew everything our daughter was going to do or say before our daughter thought of it herself", (shat would Kahlil make of her as a patent, and yet I told her after she'd left me she was the better parent would you believe!?).
Finally I know from my fathers rights campaigning days that none resident dads are told not to tell their children in letters etc., that they love their children, "because it upsets them to hear it", (as I'd guess it does). They can't live their children at least not as they'd wish, only maybe as the likes of Kahlil Gibran decide is the message here isn't it.
You couldn't make it up could you, what these control freaks who tell themselves and anyone else foolish enough to believe them, they know what is best for OUR children, yes "YOURS AND MINE"!!!
Tish
SF VIP
- Location
- Rural N.S.W. Australia
Move on, as the old saying goes "You win some you learn some."
The best revenge is to grow and survive, lose the toxicity, not the lesson.
The best revenge is to grow and survive, lose the toxicity, not the lesson.
Madman
By Kahlil Gibran
You ask me how I became a madman. It happened thus:
One day, long before many gods were born, I woke from a deep sleep and found all my masks were stolen,—the seven masks I have fashioned and worn in seven lives,—I ran maskless through the crowded streets shouting, “Thieves, thieves, the cursed thieves.”
Men and women laughed at me and some ran to their houses in fear of me.
And when I reached the market place, a youth standing on a house-top cried, “He is a madman.” I looked up to behold him; the sun kissed my own naked face for the first time. For the first time the sun kissed my own naked face and my soul was inflamed with love for the sun, and I wanted my masks no more. And as if in a trance I cried, “Blessed, blessed are the thieves who stole my masks.”
Thus I became a madman.
And I have found both freedom and safety in my madness; the freedom of loneliness and the safety from being understood, for those who understand us enslave something in us.