To All: what do you think of affirmative action?

When I worked at a college H.R. we still had paper applications with last page requesting race identification along with the statement that it would be separated from the actual application. True, but it failed to state that prior to the paper separation the race was entered into the computer with the applicant's name so that if the hiring committee chose the wrong color they were told to make another choice. However, they don't say they were racists - only having a non-white hiring and admissions bias which they claimed wasn't racist. Yea, they believed that nonsense.

At the other end, they complained that there weren't enough remedial classes available to bring them up to minimal standard.
Go figure - but that was my experience. Hopefully, we can get back to merit based admissions and hiring while we still have a country.
 

OneEyedDiva said:
It's sad that my people had to have Affirmative Action legislated in order to get a fair shot at a college education in the first place. Those who are against it don't realize, or don't care, that blocking young African Americans from getting higher education was part of a system that was already in place for over a hundred years. My hope is that now that it's not an anomaly for Blacks to attend universities and having had many, many successful graduates from such universities, that there will not be anymore discrimination against people of color, especially since the law to protect against it has been stuck down.
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Yep, as you know I grew up in the segregated south, and am descended from slave owners. So I got at least a glimpse of all that from the other side. I don't feel personally guilty for what happened, but I do think we should try to right it. It would be for the best for everyone. A rising tide lifts all boats...

There have been many problems with the existing affirmative action things. The biggest one I see is a lack of buy in from a lot of people. I believe some of those problems could be solved by a more color blind affirmative action directed at helping any disadvantaged person or people. It might be perceived as more fair, and attract broader support.

@OneEyedDiva I'd be interested in your thoughts.
 
I had a career in Forestry planned w the USForest Service and it was derailed by AA. It was tough to accept but life moves on and being a white American male is generally a winning ticket in life anyway. I was then blessed by working w my father for 30 years and meeting a wonderful woman whom I'm married to.

As far as college admittance goes the books are cooked in favor of whites and AA is definitely necessary. And that's a great point AB, it's just as much about economics as race.

I find it very uncharitable of those that say I did it all on my own, however hard, therefore no one else should catch a break.
 

OneEyedDiva said:
It's sad that my people had to have Affirmative Action legislated in order to get a fair shot at a college education in the first place. Those who are against it don't realize, or don't care, that blocking young African Americans from getting higher education was part of a system that was already in place for over a hundred years. My hope is that now that it's not an anomaly for Blacks to attend universities and having had many, many successful graduates from such universities, that there will not be anymore discrimination against people of color, especially since the law to protect against it has been stuck down.
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Well said, right on point.
 
I do NOT believe in "affirmative action" for anyone. Discrimination in the present would be bad and that includes "affirmative action." "Affirmative action is equal to taking money from heirs of rich people and giving part of those inheritances to poor people. ALL discrimination is bad, PERIOD.

However, there should NOT be discrimination against people due to their race, religion or national origins.
 
SeaBreeze said:
Well said, right on point.
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Thank you SeaBreeze❣️ I meant to point out that naysayers either don't know or choose not to acknowledge that for during slavery and for a time after...it was against the law for slaves to learn to read. That mentality didn't end with the freeing of slaves. There were people in positions of power (I did a term paper on teachers in the NYC school system), who feel that Black people are intellectually inferior, therefore did their parts in either discouraging or preventing higher education to take place. The history of educational oppression:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-literacy_laws_in_the_United_States
 
My grandmother came to the U.S. when she was 14 years old, had four children, became a widow and lost an infant daughter. She raised her three children, my dad who became a school teacher, my aunt worked in the Space Program, and an uncle also contributed to society. She never allowed war, or forced famine, to become a victim identity even after living long enough to bury three of four of her children. Respect is earned, she set high standards for her family without affirmative action, it was just her character and I was blessed to know her. Others have also looked forward, instead of backward, as new American citizens while contributing to society and building a future for themselves and their children.
 
As someone who has interviewed people for jobs and now runs a business preparing applicants for jobs… I can tell you there is no such thing as “equally qualified.”
Two people may have identical qualifications on paper, but there are other things to consider, eg : their experience, skills they can bring to the table, their attitude, how they will relate to other employees and a few more, but you get the point.

Affirmative Action can help to put people’s backs up. When someone is forced to do something by law, they find ways to do it against the law. So now, what we have is reverse discrimination against more qualified applicants. Personally, I feel race relations will not benefit hugely from AA and the number of law suits we’ll see will be staggering.
The main objective of affirmative action is to help the poor and disadvantaged… but is it really doing that?
 
Mitch86 said:
I do NOT believe in "affirmative action" for anyone. Discrimination in the present would be bad and that includes "affirmative action." "Affirmative action is equal to taking money from heirs of rich people and giving part of those inheritances to poor people. ALL discrimination is bad, PERIOD.

However, there should NOT be discrimination against people due to their race, religion or national origins.
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But it's plenty ok for rich, white peoples kids to get those legacy spots at their parent's college or because they can play lacrosse or row a boat or the parents made a big donation to a university.
 
I can understand discomfort with racially based affirmative action. However, I believe we need to recognize the adverse impact slavery and post slavery discrimination had on people. Looking at the differences between black people descended from slavery as opposed to descended from more recent immigrants can be informative. To quote from a good article, cited below:

"...involving acceptance into elite schools, researchers determined that the college applications of second-generation Black American descendants of African immigrants were selected significantly more often than Black American applicants who descended from U.S. chattel slavery with similar qualifications. Similar results were obtained when researchers evaluated whether hiring managers would prefer a Nigerian American job applicant to a Black American descendant of U.S. chattel slavery with equal qualifications."

And,

"The differences within the African-American/Black demographic are also shown in the collective wealth of each subgroup. In Los Angeles, the median Black American family that descended from U.S. chattel slavery family possessed $4,000 in net worth, while the middle African immigrant family possessed $72,000 in net worth. In Miami, the middle Black American household descended from U.S. chattel slavery had $3,700 in net worth, while the middle Caribbean Black household had $12,000 in net worth. In Boston, the middle Black American household descended from U.S. chattel slavery holds $8 in net worth, while the median Black Caribbean household has $12,000 in net worth."
OneEyedDiva said:
Those who are against it don't realize, or don't care, that blocking young African Americans from getting higher education was part of a system that was already in place for over a hundred years.
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Yep, and it extended to most all levels of education, and into modern times. I went to segregated schools through Jr High, at that point integration started slowly. I know from experience many of the black students that began to come into our schools had an inferior education in their black schools. It made integration difficult.

For reasons like this I do think we have some obligation to try and right the problem. I believe figuring out how to do it will benefit us all. And doing it in a way that has broad support is important. Call it what you want...

What's in a name: Black American descendants of slavery and the quest for a distinct ethnic designation
https://www.blackcatholicmessenger.com/descendants-of-slavery-on-the-census/
 
It's time to direct more focus on elementary through high school education. More scholarships are needed to help with payment.

As far as legacy, there are many successful minority college graduates. Doctors, college professors, scientists with PHDs. Are there children benefiting from their legacy? I hope so, but I understand it that will be under scrutiny even more now.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
It's sad that my people had to have Affirmative Action legislated in order to get a fair shot at a college education in the first place. Those who are against it don't realize, or don't care, that blocking young African Americans from getting higher education was part of a system that was already in place for over a hundred years. My hope is that now that it's not an anomaly for Blacks to attend universities and having had many, many successful graduates from such universities, that there will not be anymore discrimination against people of color, especially since the law to protect against it has been stuck down.
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That's my hope, too. I loved affirmative action and voted for it. It wasn't just about giving a leg up to people who were victims of systemic racism but it also opened doors.

When I was growing up we never saw a black doctor in the hospital, or a black person working in a bank, or almost any management position. After AA we did start seeing this and it changed everyone's expectations in such a good way.

I think it was a very good thing. Now, I tend to agree with the supreme court that it's time is up so that we can work toward a country where people are no longer defined by race, with job and college applications unchecked by any boxes. Colleges will still be able to give advantage points to any applicant from an economically deprived family and that should be helpful to many black students.
 
Jamala said:
As someone who has interviewed people for jobs and now runs a business preparing applicants for jobs… I can tell you there is no such thing as “equally qualified.”
Two people may have identical qualifications on paper, but there are other things to consider, eg : their experience, skills they can bring to the table, their attitude, how they will relate to other employees and a few more, but you get the point.

Affirmative Action can help to put people’s backs up. When someone is forced to do something by law, they find ways to do it against the law. So now, what we have is reverse discrimination against more qualified applicants. Personally, I feel race relations will not benefit hugely from AA and the number of law suits we’ll see will be staggering.
The main objective of affirmative action is to help the poor and disadvantaged… but is it really doing that?
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One AA student ended up on the Supreme Court.......Clarence Thomas.
rgp said:
Just like it's plenty ok for the black kids that are accepted to a school just because they can play football, or basketball.
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Of course football and basketball are what provide the money to have the other sports and generates name recognition for the colleges so these athlete-students are actually bartering for their ability to enroll

And you have no comment on legacy students and others that "buy" there way in. Why is that?
 
The goal is to take bias out of the process ie no discrimination. By purposely discriminating against some that defeats the purpose.

Spell out the requirements, qualifications etc and stick to it. Perhaps more effort, monies, resources needs to go helping people meet those requirements rather relying on being an exception to the rule.
 
At Harvard, Legacy admits are about 14% of incoming freshman. They perform slightly better than non-legacy admits, with >70% have 4.0 GPA. The detractors of legacy admissions call it affirmative action for rich white kids. I dunno

Also, per Harvard's own data, the % of black students will drop from 14% to 6% and hispanic students will drop from 13% to 9% if race is not considered. Asians will go from 24% to 27%, and whites from 40% to 48%. This suggest that white/asian kids are being discriminated against in the admission process. Again, I dunno.

So is taking race out of the process a step forward or a step backward?

A Harvard Without Affirmative Action
 
As an aside, arm wrestling over admission to Harvard is the wrong place to focus our efforts. It needs to start waaay earlier than that. For example, there are a number of studies that show that white kids have twice the working vocabulary as black kids when entering Kindergarten. 5 years old. Theories abound, but the common fact is that the black child is born to a poor family, which limits all sorts of things. 70% of black children are born to a single parent household, vs 28% for white children. I personally thing both of these numbers are way to high, but the reality is that the black child is disadvantaged at conception. And that's where the changes have to start. You want to improve the admission stats at Harvard? By then, it's really kinda too late.
 
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The Supreme Court decision is the correct decision. I want a merit based system, equal opportunity for all. No one of any color or ethnicity should be left out or awarded a seat because of skin color.

Legacy students should be subject to the same merit based qualifications as other students. Then the school can acknowledge their legacy somehow after they qualify on merit and pay their bill.

Not everyone should go to Harvard or to college at all. Those who do not qualify on merit to attend should go to a university where they do qualify or to community college or to a career training program. I hope we will always have plumbers, electricians, police and auto mechanics. A good living can be made in those jobs and lots of others without running up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans that the student will expect the tax payer to pay off for him.

Martin Luther King had it right all those years ago when he said, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

It's really hard to say that America is a racist country. Are there still racists? Yes. Is it systemic? I don't believe so. This country elected a black president, not once, but twice. We have a black man and a black woman on the Supreme Court. We have people of color in Congress, quite a lot of them. We have people of color in state houses all over the nation. The Republican Party has at least 5 declared candidates running for president in 2024 who are people of color.

And on a more personal note my largely caucasian and hispanic city has its second black mayor, first to be elected by the people.
 
Purwell said:
I have no idea what "affirmative action" is.

Can someone please enlighten me?
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Here is a fairly recent case I know of concerning such. Now, this case centered on, not a pattern of, but a fact specific Complaint. Summary: White firefighters had their promotional test scores thrown out due to the fact it was claimed the test was biased. The SC ruled for the firemen.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/557/557/
 
I was an EEO investigator for the US Treasury. The way AA is supposed to work is an entity (government, university, etc) has to identify a need and create an action plan. For example, in the case of a university, they would need to identify that there are a disproportionate number of white students and they would like more diversity. Their plan could be in things like recruitment or offering certain classes, whatever. Then the applications start coming in. A black student and a white student are equally matched all the way down the line, then, and only then can the university say we‘re choosing the black student based on our AA plan. If they don’t have an AA plan or if the two students aren’t evenly matched, say the black student has a lower GPA, selecting the black student would be discriminatory. As a side note, there is no such thing as reverse discrimination in a legal sense.
 
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